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View Full Version : Wish all German books were translated to English (was: Jagdgeschwader 5 - Volume 3)


Jukka Juutinen
7th May 2005, 03:47
Well, in a unit history the most important part for me are the personal accounts (pics, listings are of little importance). Therefore, if these are in German, I don´t care in which language the captions are. The book has no chance of ending up in my bookshelf. So far, the best unit histories on German units are Axel Urbanke´s "Green Hearts" (definitely better than any book on any storm in Ohio) and Hubert Meyer´s book on 12.SS-Pz.Div. Prien´s PC books don´t come even close.

Ruy Horta
7th May 2005, 11:30
Unfortunately not every book ends up in English (there are so many Japanese books I'd like to read for instance), but at least you have a good chance that Mombeek's will at one time be translated (Urbank's Greenheart book started out in german as well).

OTOH, You could turn this around.

If you are really interested in a German subject, widen your scope without the limiting factor of waiting for translations, you should make an effort to understand German. You are lucky that many german military subjects get translated at all.

Basically you are missing a lot.

Some of the best autobiographies to appear lately.

Rall's Mein Flugbuch and Meimberg's Feindberührung, both in their native language.

That's just one example.

Look at the many french books that never get translated.

Should we criticize the Avions/Jet MS.406 and MB 152 or the older Docavia D.520 (well there is an English summary in that one) because they were not translated?

My grasp of french is just about sufficient to understand about 75-95% of a sentence, but I try...

In fact (despite my PM warning) you have again tried to press your point, albeit it slightly more nuanced.

Don't you realize that you cannot criticize an author for something you'd wish to be available.

You are in fact stating a wish, that these books should be available in English, because you can't read German. You turn around the issue and make it into a problem.

If this is the easy mudslinging that CB refers to, he's actually right.

Next time, instead of using such a critical note Jukka, ask the author if there are any plans to translate the book in a language that is accessable to you as a person, that would be the correct way to present what is basically your problem.

You don't need to kiss arse, but a little more constructive thought and basic respect is really a requirement to keep this forum going.

FalkeEins
8th May 2005, 11:54
Jukka,

..you can get a little taster of some works that are not likely to be on your bookshelf by checking out my site (just click on the user name link above)...if you are into personal accounts - and I can be permitted a free plug - my translation of "Als Infanterist in Stalingrad" with Jason Mark has just been published..

Ruy Horta
8th May 2005, 12:13
Speaking of your site.

You seem to have Der Landser issues.
How are these, since I regularly see them on eBay I was wondering?

Also how's that Nowotny book, Berichte aus dem Leben meines Bruders?
Thanks!

Nick Beale
8th May 2005, 21:01
I'd agree with Ruy that if you have a serious interest in the Luftwaffe then you are at a serious disadvantage if you don't understand German (or can't call on someone who does). This is even more true when you use original sources. I was "lucky" (not my feeling at the time, of course!) to have learned it at school, as well as French and Latin (just in case the Romans ever invaded Britain again).

AND... so many people here badly overestimate the power of authors. They do not get any say about the languages in which a book may appear. To give you a personal example, when the late (lamented?) Airlife published "Air War Italy 1944-45", they told Ferdinando D'Amico, Gabriele Valentini and me that an Italian company was interested but no Italian version ever appeared. We knew NOTHING of the Polish edition until after it appeared and one of us saw a copy. By the time the Hungarian edition was "discovered" by Ferdinando on the net, it had been out for some years and Airlife was no more - they had never told us about it.

Publishers put out what they think they can sell and that's all there is to it.

Dénes Bernád
8th May 2005, 21:18
AND... so many people here badly overestimate the power of authors. They do not get any say about the languages in which a book may appear. To give you a personal example, when the late (lamented?) Airlife published "Air War Italy 1944-45", they told Ferdinando D'Amico, Gabriele Valentini and me that an Italian company was interested but no Italian version ever appeared. We knew NOTHING of the Polish edition until after it appeared and one of us saw a copy. By the time the Hungarian edition was "discovered" by Ferdinando on the net, it had been out for some years and Airlife was no more - they had never told us about it.

Publishers put out what they think they can sell and that's all there is to it.
That's true 100% (although it may vary, depending on the Publishing House). I recently discovered my Osprey book translated to... Japanese! :confused:

John P Cooper
8th May 2005, 23:07
Eric,



After reading your post about the JG 5 book I had a question. As a person with little in the way of language skills I am always challenged with buying books not in English due to inaccurate methods of translation I have available to me (google). The reason I am writing to you is that I recently posted to the topic about the Bernd Barbas book and the problems obtaining a copy, lack of English editions…


Can you help me understand why so many excellent books are first printed in German vs. English? I can only assume there are many difficulties in working with a publisher(s) to bring a quality book to market in multiple languages.


Thanks for your time – sorry if this seems like an obscure question….



John

Franek Grabowski
9th May 2005, 00:13
John

I think it is due pure marketing. There is a wider market for eg. German unit histories in Germany than in another country for natural reasons. I think that having so many publishers on this board, they may release how many copies are they selling. I think there is just not enough market to sell everything written, so publishing in other languages may be too expensive to justify the cost.
Have in mind that perhaps Luftwaffe is a rather sellable subject but smaller air forces, like Finnish, Polish or Slovak, even British are not very profitable. I know that several books are sold in hundreds rather than in thousands and comparing it to the cost of research, obtaing copyrights etc. it makes publishing unfeasible. I may write articles on several stunning subjects, but really, who would be interested in a story of a Polish pilot fighting in the Western Desert, especially as there are almost no photos to illustrate it.
On the other hand I prefer to have accounts and documents to be published in their native tongue - there is much less room for any translating errors and misinterpretations. I know that very well, trying to translate into English original Polish reports written in 1939. They are rather chaotic in grammar and often not very clear - not a surprise having in mind they were filed by a rather excited and shaken airmen.

Ruy Horta
9th May 2005, 09:58
John,

Since the language topic had popped up before I've taken the liberty of merging your question and its answer to this thread instead. This together with Franek's original answer should cover most corners.

I would like to keep a book presentation as limited as possible in terms of discussion.

Hence this new thread, of course the author can always react if he wishes to :)

Erik Mombeeck
9th May 2005, 10:08
John,

Thanks for asking this question.

First of all, even if the main language of this board is English, there are a lot of other possible languages, English is not The Must.

Now to your question: most of the guys who are writing the JG chronicles in detail are not professionals, and this itself explains much.

I will speak for my self: my goal is not to make money with these books; it is to "save" the memory of a very chaotic period. That is the reason why I visited so many hundreds of pilots, interviewed them, copied their personal documents (like photos, log-books...) before all get lost, and worked so many weeks in many archives through all the western world .

The Luftwaffe vets of course replied me in German, the first sources are in German, thus publishing in German seems to be the most accurate to do. Further, many of these persons became real friends for me, and I find evident that the books I am producing are made for them and their family in the first line. My main topic is first hand accounts: how they lived their war. Books based upon listings like claims are not my cup of tea, and certainly since I compared Luftwaffe claims and Allied losses. So, I consider that the most interesting is to report what the veterans remember, what still exists in letters of KIA pilots, in reports… and I consider German as the most adequate language for the kind of books I am doing.

I am not a professional – and Franek's words make me smile, these books cost much more than bring money – but that is probably also a force: the books I produce are exactly like I want, from the first detective work to find the source, until the shipping of the final product. So, no editor in the middle of the process, who would want to cut, or to give a larger topic on a detail, in order to make or to save money. The only experience I had with an American publisher (evoked by you in another message) was disastrous, like it was also the case for other authors, including my friend Bernd Barbas.

My poor English is also one of the reasons. How to correspond with exactitude to make a difficult book without speaking the same language at a same level with an English spoken publisher?

I find it indispensable to start reading, learning the German language if you are really interested with the German air force, or this country's history. That is what I did many years ago when I began to interview the veterans. The first one I visited was Gerhard Schöpfel who remained a friend until he passed away a few years ago. He patiently corrected the few words I thought to know in German, and encouraged for my progresses each times we met after. This is a real pleasure to discover a new language, to use and read the exact terms rather than approximate translations. You should try too.

A wide market, as writes Franek? No, the market in Germany, as well as in Europe, is very small. I think that the wider market should be USA. Should be… because, I don't really think that books on Luftwaffe, Polish, English, Belgian air forces have a real market. Rare are the books sold in thousands rather in hundreds (to use Franek's words).

We are enthusiasts, losing a lot of money by doing these books, but we became rich with the contact, the friendship, the trust that we found by the veterans who told us what they lived. What an experience!


Regards
Eric

Sergio Luis dos Santos
9th May 2005, 15:18
We are enthusiasts, losing a lot of money by doing these books, but we became rich with the contact, the friendship, the trust that we found by the veterans who told us what they lived. What an experience!
Regards
Eric

You said all in a few words !!
Hugs from Rio Eric,

chuck1945
11th May 2005, 03:15
The comments about possibly losing part of the story when it is translated has a humorous sideline to me. Several months ago I got the Polish publisher Kagero's booklet on the F2A Buffalo. Kagero's format is to present the text in both Polish and English. The book starts with an account of the Buffalo flown by Marine pilots during the Battle of Midway. There is an extensive quote from one pilot's combat report which of course was originally written in English. The publisher had translated the report to Polish and then instead of reverting to the English version for the English text, translated the Polish back to English. Needless to say something was lost in the translation.

John P Cooper
11th May 2005, 09:30
Eric,

Thank you for the rapid reply!!! I am very glad to hear the reason why you are writing books! History and truth lost is a very sad thing – I am sure you agree!

I guess living in the United States so far from Europe creates many challenges in culture and language but it is the interests that we have in common that can be used to unite us for a common goal.

Maybe it is the time for authors like yourself to band together and form an independent publishing house aided by people like myself and those on many forums to support you not only by buying the books but in other way - (think out of the box!).

I know I am going out on a limb here with this suggestion but I feel this can be done. I know I am just a person in a far away country whom you only know via cyber space but I think and feel my point is a valid one. What are your thoughts on this – certainly it can not be new idea?
I will close for now but let me say again I commend you on your point of view about the purity of work.

Sincerely

John

FrancisM
11th May 2005, 22:36
Hello all,
well I agree with Eric in all respects but I actually started out with an English version of my book (Sea Eagles). This sold out and although I worked on updating it with another publisher, this never materialised for several reasons.
I'm aware that the book was well received, so there's certainly a market for an updated and revised version.
So I'd always wanted to do a German version and eventually had the possibility to produce it myself, so this is "Die Jäger der Graf Zeppelin".
I'd given the German veterans and families copies of the English book but knew they couldn't read it as such. Giving them a German edition was the most satisfying part of all.
Well following this I've had one or two people ask for an English version, not more than that. However I can't do it, even if many more people asked. I have a cellar full of German language books so there's no space for more, quite apart from the financial question.
When I started serious research I realised that without a knowledge of German I'd never produce anything that I'd be satisfied with so I enrolled in evening classes and made trips to Germany. It wasn't easy, it needed a lot of effort, but it was well worthwhile.
Despite being a native English speaker I still prefer the original accounts over my translations, although I'm no language expert. I agree with Franek's points here, its easy to lose information in a translation.
If you want to read about the German Luftwaffe you have to learn at least some German in order to understand the basic terms, taking it that bit further is easy and essential if you want to get more out of it.

Francis Marshall

Jukka Juutinen
12th May 2005, 04:14
Well, let´s have a reminder: what if the person is interested in (but has no intention to do archival research or interview anyone!!!) e.g. Polish, German, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, Hungarian, Rumanian, Czech, French and Serbian history. Do you really suggest that the person must learn all these languages? Do you really think such suggestion is based on any kind of reality??? How many of the board members speak at least 10 languages fluently? Anyone???

Ruy Horta
12th May 2005, 10:09
Jukka,

To answer your question bluntly...YES.

If you really want to have the possibility to further your study you should ideally learn the proper language(s). At one point most of us will have to accept limitations.

Translated work is a luxury, not a given, if you fail to understand that basic premisis it is no use to continue arguing the point.

You will have to learn dutch or have access to people who can translate material for you, if you wish to study WW2 operations of the Dutch AF.

Face it there are more languages than english.

Juha
12th May 2005, 10:49
Hello,
Meimberg's Feindberührung is translated to Finnish, the title is Viholliskosketus, and it's a good book as Ruy wrote. On the general subject, I never learned German in school but managed to read some PzD unit histories because it was and still is the only option. There are no English editions on those unit histories of the PzDs which fought mostly on the Eastern Front. That was years ago and my German skills are nowadays very limited so nowadays I bought rarely books in German, some of Prien's Jagdfliegerverbände der deutschen Luftwaffe 1934-1945 now and then and the reason is that it takes me at least 4 times longer to read a German book than a book in English. And nowadays the time is the limiting factor to me. There is more than enough good and interesting books in English and I still buy books faster than I managed to read them even if my daughter does, and has already done for some years, her best to stop that (mal)practice. Every time she found out that I have bought a new book she gives me a through scolding.

Juha

Jukka Juutinen
12th May 2005, 12:34
Juha, I have read the Finnish translation of Meimberg´s book. It was decent, but I have decided not to buy any of these Koala translations as long as the translator Hannu Valtonen keeps interjecting his PC agenda on almost every page of the translations. HV has competely misunderstood his work.

Ruy Horta
12th May 2005, 13:57
Jukka,

You seem to have some big issues.

1. You demand translations
2. Available translations must pass your approval

Perhaps you should change hobbies?

Jukka Juutinen
12th May 2005, 22:02
Issues? Sure! Or do you think it is the duty of the translator to comment on an author´s views by constantly interjecting his own comments (a little bit like "author: the sun was shining beatifully" to which the translator adds "this shows how extreme the author is". These kind of comments are virtually everywhere in Hannu V´s translations. So, I do have issues. If I want to read Rudel´s memoirs, I read Rudel´s memoirs, not any Schröderian pamphlet.

Six Nifty .50s
12th May 2005, 23:59
I sense a stalemate here. I would say that both Ruy and Jukka have a case.

In a free market system any potential customer, like Jukka, has a right to make demands for specific products. If a potential supplier wants his money, they will try to provide what is demanded at a fair price. But the supplier does not have an obligation to do that, and may not have the funds or time necessary to translate research into foreign languages.

Obviously you cannot always trust the accuracy of translation, and the most practical way to avoid that problem is to learn the language used in the original texts and documents.

anderbe
13th May 2005, 00:03
My two - kaksi cent.. Every transelation loos a bit of the original.. Just look at the conversion from metric to imperial measures in most of the 'mainstream' books.. Bottom line - interested in german equipment / you got to understand german.. (Fininsh I have not tried yet - as you can see.. :) )

Ruy Horta
13th May 2005, 00:18
I sense a stalemate here. I would say that both Ruy and Jukka have a case.

But the supplier does not have an obligation to do that, and may not have the funds or time necessary to translate research into foreign languages.

As Eric explained, many books that appear in our sphere of interest are basically a labor of love and as such we cannot fault an author for choosing a language that we have not personally mastered.

I keep using the same example(s).

Besides others I have a strong interest in French, Russian and Japanese subjects. The first I have to work at (70-90% comprehension), but the latter two are beyond my ability. I am at the mercy of translations (in German for instance, from the former DDR), or simply watching pictures etc.

Do I blame Japanese or Russian writers and publishers, no, I just lament little and hope for better times...

BTW, even with the Japanese books it is a challenge to "crack" captions. If I manage to understand the basics - unit, etc - I am already in the seventh heaven!

Lets face it, if the market were so strong US and UK publishers would be standing in line with foreign authors to sign up a contract, or am I mistaken with the way the market works?

Franek Grabowski
13th May 2005, 00:47
Well, let´s have a reminder: what if the person is interested in (but has no intention to do archival research or interview anyone!!!) e.g. Polish, German, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, Hungarian, Rumanian, Czech, French and Serbian history. Do you really suggest that the person must learn all these languages? Do you really think such suggestion is based on any kind of reality??? How many of the board members speak at least 10 languages fluently? Anyone???

Jukka
I am more less fluent reading English, Russian and my native Polish. I can read Czech (and similar Slovak) as well as German. I am merely able to read French. It is just enough for my interests.
Otherwise, yes, it is a problem but face the reality. There must be a market for those books. How many of you would like to read about Polish ace flying with Americans in China? How many of you will pay for the story? Certainly not enough to bother any mainstream publisher. Look what titles Osprey is publishing at the moment for example. This is an indicator of sales of particular subjects. Sorry, face reality.
PS1 I do not thin e-books are an option at the moment.
PS2 I have 8th edition of Skalski's memoirs (autographed ;) ) - 70,000 pieces printed and all sold out! Anybody is still able to claim the market is still there?

Adam
13th May 2005, 02:33
Guys - I thought this forum was for research and not for arguing the finer points of publishing. The world is not how it should be. I agree. Can I change it? No. I have heard it mentioned elsewhere that information not shared is lost and to that end Jukka is right; it is a shame that books are not translated into a variety of languages. However, that is not to say that this is practical. However shameful of the wider 'educated' world that may be.

All arguments like this do is create divisions between what is supposed to be a community of friends and peers working with a common, loosely defined goal. I live in a bush community in Australia and work with limited funds and resources and certainly without the aid of a social group with whom I can discuss my work with. And no, I don't speak German. I work word to word via a German/English dictionary. Not ideal, but what other choice is there? I can't get to the major European archives or museums, I don't even have a good, reliable bookstore nearby. For either of these entails several hours by car to either Sydney or Canberra (which happens to be in a different state to where I live for the non-Australians reading this). The closest I can get to a group of people with whom I can discuss my interest are right here on this board. As intimidating as being made to look a fool with my limited knowledge is (Luftwaffe research is only new for me) I perserve regardless. Perhaps I don't participate as much as I want to or ask the questions I truly do sometimes want to because of that, but as Erik said, this is our passion and we do it not for fiscal reward. True passions - especially those of an academic nature - are almost never financially rewarding or worthwhile, much is the pity. As researchers, this is our cross to bear. It does no good for the board or its members to have a thread like this. The younger and/or more timid members of the budding research community who may be reading this may well become jaded or put off slightly because of arguments like this.

Seriously, do we need the stress?

It is a poor reflection of the game we play that Jukka has to put forward his thoughts concerning publishing, for he is correct. Knowledge is governed by money. Whether that be the financial whims and necessities of publishers or our own personal funds allowing us access to knowledge (in this case classes in foreign languages). Knowledge should be available to all without the necessity of having to take a circular route to achieve it. Yet as Ruy correctly stated, if it was a passion and the knowledge was that important then a solution, or circular route, would be found.

Nobody is wrong and nobody is right, just everybody has lost focus. We are friends and peers. Researchers. Do we really need a thread as divisive as this?

Adam

Ruy Horta
13th May 2005, 09:56
Focus...

This discussion started because on more than one occasion an author was criticized because he choose to (first) publish in german. As an enthusiast I really strongly object to this negative approach.

I really think that this is not the right way to go about the fact that one - we all have - has personal limitations.

But you are right, I do not wish to beat a dead horse, so I will personally not continue to pursuit the matter any further.

Erik Mombeeck
14th May 2005, 16:21
Hello
thanks for all these interesting reactions.
Regarding John's one (Maybe it is the time for authors like yourself to band together and form an independent publishing house aided by people like myself and those on many forums to support you not only by buying the books but in other way - (think out of the box!).

I find this difficult to do. I think that the greatest help for small self-editors like us would be to have good distributors in Europe as well as in USA. But, like we said before, the kind of subject we chosed does not attract much book sellers. So, we stay with the unsold books in our garages. A pity for the enthusiasts... and our cars.

best regards

Eric
www.luftwaffe.be (http://www.luftwaffe.be/)

edwest
16th May 2005, 20:04
If I may add a few words. Writers, whether of fiction or nonfiction, usually do not enter the field with the intention of learning about printing or distribution. They simply want to have copies of their work get into the hands of those that are interested in similar things. There is also the problems of dealing with publishers, their contracts, and limitations they may impose on the contents.

However, the approach to everything must be to solve problems and get answers to questions. Not guesswork or negative comments. As far as books published in languages other than English, my reply would be "Isn't that better than nothing?"

As far as people banding together to get their books published, well someone would still have to have the knowledge to deal with printers and distributors and make a living while doing it. There is also the concern that even among a group of like-minded individuals, there might be a development to modify the contents to save money. And who would finance these books?

It can be done. I currently work for a small, independent publisher of fiction books. It is hard work. In my case, I understand printing and distribution but it takes a while to learn. However, unlike the books being talked about here, there is no need to interview people or go to archives.

I agree with Ruy. Complain less, find ways to do the things you want to do. And finally, from my own experience, in publishing, as in much in life, there is no guarantee of success. (Becoming a plumber or electrician would get me a better income but I don't want to do those things.)


Regards,
Ed