German pilots in Korea War?

[Nokose]

I've read accounts and talked with one U.S. veteran about ex-German soldiers fighting in the U.S. armed forces on the ground. Has anyone heard of ex-Luftwaffe pilots having served in the U.S.A.F. during that time?

[mars]

There was no such thing

[Jim Oxley]

There was a very strong belief that the Soviets had ex-Luftwaffe pilots amongst it's cadre operating over Korea. Several USAF pilots - Gabreski and Eagleston amongst others- were convinced that they had come up against them. They claimed that the tactics they used were strikingly reminiscent of those they faced over Europe in WWII.

[JoeB]

The Soviets also strongly believed that some of the pilots *they* were facing in Korea were ex-Luftwaffe. One Soviet pilot has told the story of meeting one after that pilot was captured and brought to the Soviets' base...however it's quite clear from other Soviet pilots' accounts from same unit that he was making it up, the kernel of truth was that the ID card of a downed (KIA) US F-86 pilot was shown around their unit; but the guy, whose name we know, was definitely not ex-LW.

As Mars said, ex-LW pilots, either side, didn't happen, by any evidence. The MiG units faced by the USAF from November 1950-September 1951 were almost entirely regular fighter units of the Soviet AF's, no motley collection of 'volunteers', but whole regular units which had been 'volunteered'. Or in a handful of combats in that period, but many thereafter, the MiG's were separate units of the PLAAF (also styled as 'People's Volunteers' but again whole units of the PLAAF that had been 'volunteered'), and North Korean MiG units from November 1951. In general those units fought under unified command but separately at regimental level. Sometimes in the early experimental phase of Chinese involvement (ca. late 50 early 51) it was a Chinese battalion with Soviet battalions. And, Soviet advisors flew in combat with NK units in at least some instances according to both NK and Soviet accounts; but AFAIK there's no Chinese account of Soviet advisors flying in their units in combat, though some Soviet accounts mention it. Anyway the MiG opposition was not typically the multinational mix of pilots in the same small units that the US often assumed prior to 1953.

But in 1953, the NK MiG defector No Gum-Suk explained the actual nature and organization of the MiG opposition to the USAF. He was based at Antung along with the separate Soviet and Chinese units from late '51, alternately ate in their respective messes (he liked the food at the Chinese mess, the liquor ration at the Soviet mess), never ran into any third nationalities. So, this was all basically known a long time ago to the USAF, but later publicized Soviet and Chinese accounts confirm it, confirmed almost everything No said on various subjects, he turned out very reliable.

Joe

[Nokose]

Thanks for the response. I was wondering about any type of aircraft not just fighters. The French lumped pilots, SS and so fore in the Legion for Indo-China but heard of none flying there. As I said the U.S. Army and Marines had ex-German soldiers serving for citizenship.

[Bruce Dennis]

I am prepared to be shot down in flames for this by those who may know better, but I recall some time ago reading the autobiography of an American pilot, exWWll & Korea, who described Japanese pilots flying for the South Koreans. Is this correct?

Bruce

[JoeB]

I am prepared to be shot down in flames for this by those who may know better, but I recall some time ago reading the autobiography of an American pilot, exWWll & Korea, who described Japanese pilots flying for the South Koreans. Is this correct?

There were no ethnic Japanese pilots in either Korea's armed forces but there were Korean pilots who had flown in the Japanese Army in WWII when Korea was ruled by Japan. An early hero of the ROKAF was Col. Rhee Geun-Seok (subject to various latin letter spellings) who had been a combat fighter pilot in the JAAF in WWII. While serving with the 77th Fighter Regiment flying the Type 97 Fighter he was shot down in combat with 67th Sdn RAF and the AVG over Rangoon December 25 1941 and became the first Japanese POW in that theater. Then a Sargent, he was known at the time by either the Japanese name he took, Aoki Akira, or the Japanization of his Korean name, Ri Kontetu. July 3, 1950 he was killed leading the first ROKAF F-51 combat mission, attacking an NK tank column. His plane was either hit by AA or flew accidentally into the ground.

Lee Wahl, deputy chief of the NK air force at the beginning of the war, was another ex-Japanese Army pilot.

Many or most senior ROKA/AF/N officers in 1950 were veterans of the Japanese forces. A few had been Japanese Army officers (like Park Chung-Hee, later long time President/dictator of ROK in 1960's/70's) though most had been enlisted. Some in NK forces too but not nearly as many: the politics were different, and the NK's had a bigger reservoir of men with combat experience in the Soviet Army, ethnic Korean units of the PLA, etc.

Re: Nokose: Almost all US pilots by time of KW were officers, and the general practice of US pilot training (and probably most AF's) was not to take men who had already fully learned to fly elsewhere (civilian or military), because they were viewed as having 'wrong' basic flying habits that would have to be broken. And rightly or wrongly, the US air arms did not view themselves as being in need of learning directly from the combat experience of Axis pilots by making them directly into US pilots; those where the air arms they'd just beaten in part by having generally better trained pilots, in the US view. So I'm sure there were at least a few immigrants who'd served in Axis armed forces in WWII then joined or were drafted (non-citizens lving in the US were subject to the draft) as enlisted men in US forces in Korea, but very unlkely any ended up as US military pilots in any type of a/c.

Joe

[David N]

Thanks for the response. I was wondering about any type of aircraft not just fighters. The French lumped pilots, SS and so fore in the Legion for Indo-China but heard of none flying there. As I said the U.S. Army and Marines had ex-German soldiers serving for citizenship.

Do you know of any books, or other sources, that have accounts of ex-German soldiers serving in the U.S. Army and Marines in Korea?

[Franek Grabowski]

I recall reading memoirs of one of Soviet top-leading aces of the conflict (Pepelayev?), and who mentioned that they had lost a bit sense following WWII. He continued to follow his WWII experience, and often disobeyed orders, but some did not, and did fly according to the book. Perhaps this was the reason of belief there were some Germans around. Personally, I doubt there were any foreigners in NK aviation, as it would turn out by now. There were some rumours of Poles being send there (and later to Vietnam), but they were not confirmed in any way, and considering rather alarming level of training and doubtful loyalty it would make no sense anyway. There is a fact, however that soldiers here were worried that they will go to Korea.
There were Poles on the other side though, I have talked to few Polish RAF pilots, who ferried aircraft for UN contingent, and one of them had some problems, because he was still stateless. I also know of a one man, who was underground soldier, and after escape to the west he was drafted to USMC for citizenship and flew combat missions with them. I remember his name, but I was unable neither to track him nor TV programme about him.
In ground forces, there was at least one Pole, who served with Oz, Jerzy Zwolański, a Market-Garden decorated veteran.

[Csaba B. Stenge]

There are many rumours about Eastern European pilots on the Commuinst side in Korea, but it didn't happen. However, it is not a pure fabrication. I have a very interesting document in which an ex WWII Hungarian pilot volunteered to Korea to fight against the "imperialists". But his offer was turned down. I guess, the Communist side missed an interesting propaganda victory and opportunity to disallow such requests.

[mars]

This was a little more complicated, the reason Stalin supported Kim's invasion of the South was that he believed American would not involed into this confilict, Stalin surely did not want the WW III in the 1950's, luckily mainly from Chinese own interest, China committed her ground troops into Korean, Stalin's goal in this region became: 1) contained American in the Korea, this would be accompolished by Chinese, for this reason he would provided weapons to Chinese 2) avoid direct confrontation between American and Soviet, for this reason, Soviet troops, except a few flak regiments, were not allowed into Korean, and the VVS would only cover the crossing of the Yalu river, so that the war materials could be send over to Chinese army, but they were not allowed to come to south to support chinese ground troops or launch offensive against US airforce and US navy. At the same time, Americans, who also did not want a new world war, refrained them not attacking any ground target in China and Russia.
So it was hard to see why Russian would approve any actions such as recruited "interational volunteers" .

[Csaba B. Stenge]

Have you read, what I written? That particular pilot was a true volunteer, not a forced one. Behind the iron curtain, there was only one sided propaganda, so such requests were not so rare. And showing some keen foreign volunteers in newsreels would have been a ture propaganda victory in every conflicts, especially, if the UN fights in the other side...

[Franek Grabowski]

Csaba, it is extremely interesting. Was the man in any way communistic supporter or tied to communists in Hungary (family, friends, etc.)?
I think it was a result of general Soviet policy of the time, which turned 'less international', and more Russian oriented. On the other hand, there were plenty of rumours of non-Soviet airmen flying for reds in various conflicts, but were any substantiated, apart of Cuban presence in Angola?

[Csaba B. Stenge]

He was not an obsessed communist, he was just blinded by the one-sided propaganda, but that's a long story. I have an interesting Korea project with many interesting aspects, but the progress is slow, because I have no time for this material (yet).

[Franek Grabowski]

Well, you must admit, that it sounds weird to say the least. I have wondered if he wanted to escape, but it should be easier for him to do that from Hungary, unless in fear of his family.

[Edward L. Hsiao]

Gentlemen,

Their were quite a few Luftwaffe pilot veterans that became US citizens in the late 1940's. What kind of expert trade does they do if they joined the US military during the Korean War? Piloting would have been the best. So maybe they flew all kinds of US military planes from the army,air force,marines,and navy. Spotter planes,B-26 bombers,helecopters,perhaps jet fighters,etc. Veterans of the Luftwaffe were a restless bunch sometimes.

Sincerely,

Edward L. Hsiao

[kaki3152]

There was a Luftwaffe fighter pilot (Thyben , I think) who ended up flying for the Colombian AF

[Edward L. Hsiao]

Dear Sir,

It was Gerhard Thyben who was the holder of the Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves and had 157 air-to-air kills to his credit. He may had flown combat sorties with the Columbian Air Force during the period of "La Violencia" from 1948 to 1954. He wasn't the only Luftwaffe pilot veteran that served in the Columbian Air Force.

Sincerely,

Edward L. Hsiao

P.S.:This is off the topic. I guess we will never know for sure about Luftwaffe pilot veterans that may have joined the US Air Force to fight in other wars. We can't come up with names of them. Perhaps a new thread about Luftwaffe veterans joining the other air forces of other countries and flew combat missions should be started.

[Edward L. Hsiao]

It's being over three years since that topic about the possibility of German pilots fighting in the Korean War. There were other foreign air forces that were allied to our air force in the air war over Korea. Perhaps there were German pilots in other air forces over Korea that were allies to our US Air Force.

Edward L. Hsiao

[BrianC]

Hi guys

Most interesting!

Changing tack slightly, I believe the odd ex-Luftwaffe pilot flew for the Syrians in the late 1940s/early 1950s against the new state of Israel.

Also, a few Soviet pilots flew for the Egyptians during the same period.

What do we know about these?

Cheers
Brian

[Edward L. Hsiao]

There were also not so strange possiblities of Luftwaffe pilot veterans joining the US Army and Marines as ground soldiers after WWII and Heer,Waffen-SS,and Kriegsmarine veterans joined the US Air Force after WWII as pilots and crewmen of USAF planes. See if you can figure that out.

Edward L. Hsiao

[bearoutwest]

The timing may not be suitable for any ex-Luftwaffe personell to serve in the USAF in Korea. If we look at typical immigration times/waiting periods:
- 12-24 months wait post application (clearance checks, processing time);
- 6-12 months post-approval to travel and settle in the USA
- 6 months between applying to join USAF and being accepted (post-war glut of ex-USAAF aircrews wanting to stay in service)
- 6 months initial flight training (even an ex-Luftwaffe pilot would need to be taught USAF procedures and protocols)
- 6-12 months operational training (e.g. fighter stream onto T-33s, F-80s, F-84s or F-86s)
- finally to an operational squadron
- into the queue of operational pilots wanting to go to Korea to bag a MiG (there were also units in continental USA, Greenland/Iceland, and NATO regions as well as parts of SE Asia that needed pilots).

So as a rough guess, minimum of 3 years (probably longer) between applying for US citizenship to being operational and in the queue for Korea. You would need to apply in 1946 to be operational in 1949/50. Would the US have had any real need to fast-track ex-Luftwaffe pilots, when there were so many ex-USAAF aircrew wanting to re-enlist? (Ace pilots like Robin Olds were sent to USAF Europe, having had their application to serve in Korea turned down.) Probably why so few stories exist of ex-Luftwaffe types in Western air forces.

I'm aware of one case - Frank Korbl - ex-Luftwaffe and was in initial pilot training in 1945, when redirected to radio school. Eventually immigrated to Australia, and served in the RAAF in Vietnam in a helicopter squadron.
Book listing on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com.au/Luftwaffe-RAAF-Frank-Korbl-ebook/dp/B00A1WY094

Or possibly available to download free from Australian Government publications:
http://airpower.airforce.gov.au/Publications/Ex-Luftwaffe-MBE (original title? Ex-Luftwaffe-MBE)

...geoff

[Franek Grabowski]

I would say surprisingly few German pilots emerged in various places around the world. I guess most remained in Germany, and some worked as pilots there. Others asjusted to civilian life.
I am not aware of Soviet pilots in Egypt in 1940s.

[Edward L. Hsiao]

Gentlemen,

I can't find any good stories of German WWII Wehrmacht veterans fighting in Korea while serving with the US Armed Forces or the foreign allies of the US on my computer. I tried Google and not one good website came out about the Germans serving with the armed forces of the world during the Korean War. Could you help me please?

Edward L. Hsiao

[bearoutwest]

Here's an actual case of a Hungarian Jew refugee, who was stranded(?) in Germany post-1945, eventually immigrated to the USA, served in the infantry in the Korean War, and was eventually awarded the Medal of Honour in that conflict. His name is Tibor Rubin, and his story is detailed in the book: "Single Handed" by Daniel Cohen.

This is Rubin's timeline, post-1945, as extracted from the book.
- May 1945, in one of the concentration camps in Malthausen (Austria) liberated by Patton's army
- eventually returns to home town of Paszto, aged about 15 years
- leaves Hungary in late 1945, before Russian close the borders
- Summer 1945, enters UN-run "displaced persons" camp in Pocking (and ex-Luftwaffe facility, also being used as a PoW camp for German service personnel)
- spends at least 12 months in Pocking, moving into an "emmigration centre" in Landshut in Summer 1946
- six months later (Winter 1947?), offered a place to stay by uncle in New York
- at pre-selection interview with US officials, told that "...as a former ally of Germany, all Hungarians were classified as 'hostiles', and thus were ineligible for entry to the United States. Despite the genocide they had endured, there was no quota for Hungarian Jews. ..."
- 1948, Tibor (and other members of his family) has been selected for immigration to the USA - the laws had been relaxed, leading to signifigant immigration numbers between 1948-1952
- arrives in New York in 1948
- Late-Spring 1950, reports to military recruiting centre in Oakland (California)
- 1950, sent to Okinawa for 2 months advanced infantry training
- July 1950, arrives P'ohang-dong, Korea for combat

So assuming no 'hostile' combatants (i.e. ex-Wehrmacht, Kriegsmarine, Luftwaffe; and definitely no Waffen-SS) would be selected for immigtarion to the USA before 1948; it's not surprising that there appear to be currently no record of ex-Luftwaffe pilots serving in the USAF in the Korean War. As for German ex-combatant 'hostiles', perhaps placed at the end of the immigration queue. They may not have gotten into uniform in time for Korea.


...geoff

[Edward L. Hsiao]

Well there are a few books that had testamonies of German Wehrmacht veterans of WWII that had served in the US Army and US Marines and had fought in the frontlines in Korea during the 50's.

Edward L. Hsiao

[bearoutwest]

Edward,
Your original question asked about ex-Luftwaffe pilots. I've tried to answer that question. It is my opinion that the likely times available for immigration (not before 1948-52, except for a few "valued assets" - test pilots, rocket scientists, etc), together with usual training times make it very unlikely any ex-Luftwaffe pilots would be flying USAF aircraft in the Korean War.

As for ground troops, I found you one case of a Hungarian youth - not an ex-service personnel, and highlighted the difficulties he had in reaching the USA. So obviously, it's not impossible. However, I would suggest that an foreign "hostile" that fought in combat against the USA would have had an even more difficult time.

Still, nothing is impossible. It would help if you actually listed some names of these "few books that had testamonies of German Wehrmacht veterans of WWII" or of the German veterans. That way, others here may be able to add more information to that which you seek.

For myself, though I find this topic interesting, there's probably not much more I can add.

Regards,
...geoff

[Edward L. Hsiao]

Need to examine this topic. So I'm put this up front.

Edward L. Hsiao