Seeking photos/info of 92 SQ Spitfires crashed & damaged during 23.5.40 combat over France

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

As part of the EOE Project, we've located several photos of two of the five 92 SQ Spitfires shot down or damaged over France on May 23, 1940. These two are the Spitfires of Bushell and Gillies. Two other Spitfires were shot down in France, Learmond and Klipsch, and one, Green, made it back to Hawkinge badly damaged where it made a forced-landing. Does anyone know if photos exist of the crash of Learmond on the beach at Cap Griz-Nez France? He apparently remains MIA, and his fate has not been determined. Klipsch apparently crashed vertically at Wierre-Effroy and was kiled. Do any contemporary photos exist of that crash site? And finally, do any photos exist of N3167 after Green force-landed it at Hawkinge with injuries and serious damage?

There is a good report of the circumstances of Roger Buschell being shot down and captured, but I'm not aware of any good account of Gillies experiences, during which he was shot down and captured. Does such an account exist?

I'm aware of the following sources, besides Franks, for accounts of 92 SQ actions that day:

'Smoke Trails in the Sky' by Anthony Bartley (William Kimber 1984) - Tony
Bartley's account,
'Fly For Your Life' by Larry Forrester (Frederick Muller 1956)- Stanford
Tuck's biography,
'The RAF in the World War Vol.2' by Capt Norman MacMillan (George Harrap
1944)- Roger Bushell's account.

Are we missing anything?

Thanx,

[Andy Saunders]

Larry

Peter Cornwell copied me in on his e-mail to you and I'll get around to looking at it in detail later tonight.

Meanwhile, has anyone identified this Spitfire wreck? I did wonder about it being Learmond's although if the story of Fg Off Peter Cazenove finding his pal Learmond in the cockpit of his burnt out Spitfire is accurate then this does not seem to fit.

[wise62]

Hello,

the spitfire into the sand has a M as part of his code letters, the site is the beach near Wissant.
Does anyone has a picture of P/O Gillies? I have located his crash site.

Wise62

[wise62]

Hi again,

about Pat Learmond :

in september 1987, l'association Maurice Choron dug up a spitfire MKI wreck, between Blériot Plage and Sangatte :
From witness , this a/c was shot down in the morning of may 1940 (23/24 may).

carbonised ashs has been found still into the wreckage.
No proof of identity of the pilot was found.
About the a/c, the engine plate was:
Merlin III/19131 N° 144503
On the side door of the fuselage which has been found, the trace of a letter code was seen : O - G or Q.

Unfortunatly, the engine number is not listed in the forms 78 kept by official records. So this pilot remains unknown.

Wise62

[Andy Saunders]

Hello,

the spitfire into the sand has a M as part of his code letters, the site is the beach near Wissant.
Does anyone has a picture of P/O Gillies? I have located his crash site.

Wise62

Here is John Gillies.

Would be interested to hear from you about his crash site and to know more specifics about what may have been Learmond's crash site.

[Spitfire 9]

'Best of the Few'

Must be 'The' book on 92sq, much detail combined with many previously unpublished photos including the above of John Gillies.

Mervyn.

[Andy Saunders]

For the avoidance of doubt, the photo posted above is from the private album of the late Pat Learmond of 92 Squadron.

[Spitfire 9]

I am sure there is no doubt.

[wise62]

L'association Maurice Choron has stopped her activities several years ago. Perhaps some parts of the wreck are still displayed into Calais War Museum collections This museum was a partner for the association.
Thanks for the photo of P/O Gillies.

Wise62

[Andy Saunders]

And here is Learmond, not in the book mentioned by Mr Mervyn Aldridge, aka Spitfire 9. This is not in Michael Robinson's book and one which that author was unable to copy from elsewhere and re-use in "Best Of The Few".

[Larry Hickey]

wise62,

It would be a big help to me to know where the crash site of Gillies' Spitfire has been located. Can you provide this?

Thanx,

[wise62]

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/URL=http://img339.imageshack.us Copy of the local newspaper about the dug up of the unknown Spit near Blériot-Plage Sangatte

Wise62

[Andy Saunders]

From your earlier posting this was the Spitfire of Learmond, I thought?

Is the Spitfire flown by Gillies at the same place?

[wise62]

to Larry Hickey,

Could you send me a private message ?
it's not possible for me as your forum boxe seems full.
Wise62

[wise62]

Hi,

Picture of the engine plate and little parts of clothes found during the dug of the spit of Bleriot/Sangatte, 21 years ago....

wise62

[Andy Saunders]

Unless I am mistaken (and I don't think I am!) the small Spitfire data plate is exactly the same one as that which is illustrated on page 104 of "Crashs sur le Pas-de-Calais 1940 -1945" by Hugues Chevalier.

I suspect very strongly that the site from where this originates is the crash site of Pat Learmond's Spitfire. It would be interesting to know, exactly, where the crash site was located. Learmond is still missing.

Equally, it would be good to know where Gillies crashed, Wise 62.

[wise62]

Hi,

Many of the items found during the activity of Maurice Choron association are now into H. Chevalier and J.Leclercq 's hands (as for G.Chalk and P. Laguna spitfires parts). In his book, Hughes Chevalier refers to "Maurice Choron group" and have added pictures of several of these items. I think that these parts had been kept by the president of the association, Patrick Hembert, who gave up them.
For me, I have only a picture of the plates and parts of clothes, taken when they have been found in 1987.
Unfortunatly, I have lost contact with Patrick Hembert many years ago.

But what do you think about Peter Cazenove report : He crash-landed on the beach, north of Calais, where his spitfire has been found in 1981,as you know (After the Battle) : you write : " when making for the town, he came across the incinerated fragments of a spitfire, cremated among its wreckage where the remains of his friend, Pat Learmond".

"Making for the town" : Calais, from the northern beach but The wreck of the unknown spit has been found south of Calais
So Cazenove would have had to walk through the town of Calais before to meet the wreck, over the harbour.

Do you know the exact point where P. Cazenove has been taken POW?

Wise62

[Andy Saunders]

I do not know exactly where Peter Cazenove was taken POW.

He apparently took part in the final defence of Calais, but am not sure if it was actually in the town.

The account about his discovery of Learmond's wreckage is taken from Tuck's book "Fly For Your Life" and so it might not be 100% accurate, of course.

It is still possible that the wreck to the south is Learmonds, and still possible that it was found by Cazenove. Unfortunately we will never know.

I was in contact with a Patrick Duriez in the Pas de Calais area many years ago and who had researched many losses but I have lost contact with him, too, and I am afraid that Chevalier and Leclerc do not seem to have any wish to deal with English-based historians and researchers - which is a pity as we could all help each other a great deal!

[wise62]

I dont know if there is still something to find. I hope that you read french

[Andy Saunders]

Thank you, Wise62. Interesting though it is I have struggled to be able to read the text. It is too small and too low res. If I try to print it, or to increase the size, the text gets worse. Any chance you could re-scan at a higher res? It would be VERY much appreciated!

[Andy Saunders]

Wise 62 - can you confirm the engine numbers on the RR Merlin III plate?

The top one looks like 19131. Is it prefixed by a letter? C perhaps??

The lower AM/RAF number seems to be A/44307....although 144307 might make more sense?

If you can confirm the numbers you have it would be most helpful indeed. Thank you!

[wise62]

I confirm
MERLIN III 19131
RIGHT HAND TRACTOR
A 144503 (and no 44307 OR 144307)

Wise62

[Ex Shack]

Hi Larry
I note you are in the USA which might make this difficult, but on the Discovery Channel as broadcast by satellite in UK and Europe, there have been several repeats of a UK programme under the overall title "Time Team" devoted to archaeological digs,mostly earlier History.However, one of them was about recovering the wreckage of Klipsh's Spitfire in France, his body having been removed at the time of his death. I don't how you could get a look at it but it was fairly comprehensive.
Regards
Dick

[Andy Saunders]

Dick

Peter & Arnold and I were both involved with the "Time Team" programme and the Klipsch recovery and one of us could no doubt get a DVD to Larry if he wanted one. However, I suspect it will not add much to his quest for detailed loss information.

Andy

[Andy Saunders]

The AM Form 78 gives engine number 136527 for P9370 which conflicts with the engine number found at the mystery crash site. Whilst this does not rule out Learmond as the possible pilot of the mystery crash the AM 78 unfortunately does not give us corroborative linking evidence. However, the possibility that the original engine (136527) was replaced and the number not recorded on the F.78 cannot be excluded either. That said, the engine numbers identified at the Klipsch and Cazenove crash sites matched those recorded on the relevant F.78's.

Thus, the mystery endures!

As an afterthought, I would add that the image of the Rolls-Royce Merlin plate does not reflect (in my view and experience) a plate that has been torn from a disintegrating Merlin which has buried itself some metres into the ground. To me, this has the appearance of a data plate removed from an intact or relatively intact engine. It shows no witness marks or distress from distortion caused in high speed impacts and no evidence of being straightened out. It is possible that this plate "pinged" off the broken/breaking engine but in my experience it would show severe signs of damage and bending if this were the case.

Is there any chance, Wise62, that this plate originated from any other more intact Spitfire wreck and its provenance has become confused in recent years? It wouldn't be the first time this has happened.

[Andy Saunders]

Continuing my delving into the mystery Spitfire crash mentioned by Wise62 I have established that the pilot was buried as an Unknown Airman of 39/45 War in Plot 14, Row E, Grave 22 of Terlincthun British Cemetery (Pas de Calais) on 28 July 1988.

The mystery endures, but notwithstanding the conflicting RR Merlin engine number I am inclined to the view that this is most likely Pat Learmond of 92 Squadron. All the evidence, circumstantial and otherwise, points in that direction.

Larry? Peter?

[Peter Cornwell]

Andy,

I agree there is a strong possibility but without better corroboration we are, at best, dealing with another 'believed to be' case I'm afraid. Regretably, the RR engine plate IMO can only be viewed as an 'associated' piece rather than evidential, though had the engine number actually matched the F.78 then, clearly, things would have been different.

[Andy Saunders]

I agree. However, I remain unconvinced that the Merlin plate illustrated actually originated with the crash site in question. It shows no sign of the kind of "trauma" associated with items from such crashes. To me this has all the appearance of a plate that has been pinged off another, intact, RR Merlin. If so, then the provenance along the way has been compromised. There are one or two other potential Merlin's it could have belonged to. I suspect we shall never know.....!

[wise62]

Hi,
as you have seen , on the picture , with the plate, there was a little part of cloth.
This picture has been taken after the dig and I wonder why another plate of another merlin would have been pictured as the plate of this particular engine. The crash was in a dumpy soil, very smooth, with no stones.. It was the beginning of archeology in the area. Only two spits had been found at this time : Piotr Laguna and Stephenson one's.. even a beginner, the group was able to keep proofs of it's finds.
The is a lot of forms which do not list the number of the engine. Bad luck for this case!


Wise62

[northeagle]

Hello,

the spitfire into the sand has a M as part of his code letters, the site is the beach near Wissant.
Does anyone has a picture of P/O Gillies? I have located his crash site.

Wise62
Another one of Gillies. Taken at Stalag Luft III photo courtesy of Dudley Craig.

Best Wishes.
Robert.

[wise62]

Robert
Thanks for this picture.

Wise62

[Andy Saunders]

Hi,
as you have seen , on the picture , with the plate, there was a little part of cloth.
This picture has been taken after the dig and I wonder why another plate of another merlin would have been pictured as the plate of this particular engine. The crash was in a dumpy soil, very smooth, with no stones.. It was the beginning of archeology in the area. Only two spits had been found at this time : Piotr Laguna and Stephenson one's.. even a beginner, the group was able to keep proofs of it's finds.
The is a lot of forms which do not list the number of the engine. Bad luck for this case!


Wise62

Thank you Wise62!

I accept what you are saying and that this plate apparently originates from the crash site in question. It is extremely unfortunate that it does not help us to tie up any identification with Learmond or any other pilot.

On another matter, Wise62, I am compiling a detailed study of all RAF/Luftwaffe daylight losses from 1 Jan to 31 Dec 1941 and if you have local knowledge of any such losses in your area (date/type/pilot etc) then I would be very pleased to hear from you. Equally, would be pleased to receive any such information by pm or to sndz338@aol.com from any other forum contributor.

Would be happy to reciprocate with any information you might be seeking from UK sources.

[Andy Saunders]

I am still trying to resolve the mystery of this unknown airman.

I have struggled with the unreadable text on the French newspaper cutting, kindly posted by Wise62.

If I can make out the text correctly, then it seems there was evidence pointing to this crash having happened on 24 May 1940.

That being the case, there only seems to be one missing candidate; Plt Off Richard Dennis Aubert, 41361, of 74 Squadron lost on 24 May in N3243.

I appreciate this is all very vague and circumstantial, but the wreckage was evidently a Spitfire Mk I and the possibilities are limited.

I still favour the possibility that this may have been Plt Off Learmond of 92 Squadron, lost on 23 May 1940 since the location ties in with the apparently reported location of his crash.

Whoever the poor chap was, he was buried at Terlincthun British Cemetery on 28 July 1988, Plot 14, Row E, Grave 22 as an unknown airman.