He 162 "White 4" at Kassel an Leck

[Roger Gaemperle]

Hello,

I have seen several photos of a He 162 "White 4" at Kassel and of a "White 4" at Leck. They may have been one and the same He 162 with the W.Nr. 120097. That would mean this plane was transported from Leck to Kassel.

Are there any proofs for that? What would have been the likely reason for the transport?

Thanks,
Roger

[jmelson]

Hello Roger,

White '4' at Leck and White '4' at Kassel are the same He162 and the correct WNr is 120067. A replacement tail was put on White '4' at Kassel (no WNr). The wing from 120067 was eventually put onto White '7' WNr 120222. A fair amount of damage was done to the He162's at Leck at the end of hostilites. To get an aircraft in good shape a lot of parts were swapped around.
The British Army overran Leck.......a number He162's were transported to Kassel for the Americans.

John

[Roger Gaemperle]

John,

Thank you very much for the information about "White 4". That's very interesting. I would have expected that the He 162 at Leck were found more or less in operational status and that they were treated very carefully as it was a rare and valuable high-tech (at least its propulsion and ejection seat) plane. But I remember other He 162 with swapped airframe parts (e.g. White 23).

I am also looking for information about He 162 "White 5". I have a photo that presumably was taken at Erfurt-Nord (based on other aircraft on photos of the same series). White 5 is barely visible in the background with a collapsed nose gear. I couldn't find any information about the fate of "White 5" found at Leck but it appears to be one and the same aircraft.

Does anybody have an idea why these He 162 were transported over such a long distance and then apparently scrapped?

Regards,
Roger Gaemperle

[Robert Forsyth]

Hello Roger,

Does anybody have an idea why these He 162 were transported over such a long distance and then apparently scrapped?

I spent quite a bit of time trying to work this one out myself last year, but could not find an answer. Perhaps someone else will and I look forward to it.

It is highly unlikely anyone except a British pilot would have flown the machine from Leck (the British were very 'aware' of what they had and were extremely careful about 'who' got into the Heinkels). The problem is that - so far - there seems no evidence that a British pilot would have done so. Their priority - indeed orders – was to get aircraft over to RAE Farnborough for evaluation.

Perhaps an American pilot went to Leck to 'fetch' one? Possibly - but again no traceable record from either the British or US sides.

The He 162s that went to France were moved by rail and were (re)assembled quite easily; that could be a possibility, but somehow unlikely - it just doesn't 'look' like this happened to the Kassel airframe. I was stumped.

So if ever you find out, let me know!

Sorry not have been of more help.

Robert Forsyth

[Nick Beale]

AIR55/124 & 125 have a chart of captured aircraft disposals but that only says 31 He 162 were found in Germany (in the British Zone, as I understood it) and none in Denmark or Norway but not what was done with them.

AIR29/931 (Disarmament Servicing & Recovery Units 434, 435 and 436) notes that seven He 162 were among the jet/rocket aircraft dispatched to France by rail in (or by?) March 1946. The others were two Ar 234, 2 Me 262 and 4 Me 163.

[Dan O'Connell]

AIR55/124 & 125 have a chart of captured aircraft disposals but that only says 31 He 162 were found in Germany (in the British Zone, as I understood it) and none in Denmark or Norway but not what was done with them.

AIR29/931 (Disarmament Servicing & Recovery Units 434, 435 and 436) notes that seven He 162 were among the jet/rockt aircraft dispatched to France by rail in (or by?) March 1946. The others were two Ar 234, 2 Me 262 and 4 Me 163.

Any Werk Nummer on the Me 262's Nick?

[Nick Beale]

Any Werk Nummer on the Me 262's Nick?

No such luck, although that's what I'd hoped to find. They seemed mainly interested in putting Ju 52s back into use and sharing them among the Allies - there were lots of Werk Numern for those, as I recall. Then there was a blanket statement to the effect that "it was decided at the outset that Bf 109s and Fw 190s were of no further interest"!

[Dan O'Connell]

No such luck, although that's what I'd hoped to find. They seemed mainly interested in putting Ju 52s back into use and sharing them among the Allies - there were lots of Werk Numern for those, as I recall. Then there was a blanket statement to the effect that "it was decided at the outset that Bf 109s and Fw 190s were of no further interest"!

Odd, I don't recall any being shipped, thought they were all flown over. Thanks Neil.

[Nick Beale]

Thanks Neil.

Neil?

[Dan O'Connell]

It was about 5 AM when I sent that LOL Sorry!

[O.Menu]

I have seen several photos of a He 162 "White 4" at Kassel and of a "White 4" at Leck. They may have been one and the same He 162 with the W.Nr. 120097. That would mean this plane was transported from Leck to Kassel.

Are there any proofs for that? What would have been the likely reason for the transport?

Thanks,
Roger

The U.S. got three main concentrating area for captured materials, one of them Kassel, 400km south from Leck and 600km north-ouest from Vienna, was the He 162 main grouping emplacement.



White '4' at Leck and White '4' at Kassel are the same He162 and the correct WNr is 120067. A replacement tail was put on White '4' at Kassel (no WNr). The wing from 120067 was eventually put onto White '7' WNr 120222. A fair amount of damage was done to the He162's at Leck at the end of hostilites. To get an aircraft in good shape a lot of parts were swapped around.
The British Army overran Leck.......a number He162's were transported to Kassel for the Americans.

John

Actually except perhaps “yellow 1” shown with a missing wing tip under British roundels it seems that no damage was done to the He 162 at Leck. The reason for those different fins visible after Leck surrender is that contrary to the main Watson’s birds flying harvest like Me 262, Do 335, Ta 152, He 219… The He 162 as Me 163, due to their short flying time and pretty small size when dismounted, were found more easy to be moved by trains and by roads than by air up to Cherbourg. (The British for themselves had also used the Ar 232 to cross the Channel with He 162 inside). But then except for the British who took care about which fins goes with which fuselage, American and French mounted any fins to any fuselages. “White 4” example is slightly different since it was abandoned at Kassel and simply got also one abandoned tail fins roughly mounted on the fuselage for fun.



Thank you very much for the information about "White 4". That's very interesting. I would have expected that the He 162 at Leck were found more or less in operational status.

Roger Gaemperle

Same feeling here. The 22 He162 visible along the runway at surrender looks to be flyable. Another four are visible in front of one and same hangar (ie: red 4, white 23, white 8 and yellow 6) all of them were under repair or damaged. So left one under unknow condition from the 27 captured at Leck.




I am also looking for information about He 162 "White 5". I have a photo that presumably was taken at Erfurt-Nord (based on other aircraft on photos of the same series). White 5 is barely visible in the background with a collapsed nose gear. I couldn't find any information about the fate of "White 5" found at Leck but it appears to be one and the same aircraft.



“White 5” fate is hard to follow. From photo proof we know abandoned at Kassel ‘white 3’ 120028, ‘white 4’ 120067, ‘yellow 6’ 310xxx and another with camouflage from the 310xxx W.Nr. range and though to be ‘white 5’. So perhaps more Kassel than Erfurt-Nord for this photo…


AIR29/931 (Disarmament Servicing & Recovery Units 434, 435 and 436) notes that seven He 162 were among the jet/rocket aircraft dispatched to France by rail in (or by?) March 1946. The others were two Ar 234, 2 Me 262 and 4 Me 163.

By June 1945 fifteen He 162 are reported under U.S. control but it seems that the U.S. finally decided to bring back to the U.S.A. only some of the operational He 162 from I./JG1 captured by the English at Leck airfield. I suppose that’s because all those captured by themselves in the south area have been left damaged by the Germans.

It is usually said that the English captured 27 He 162 at Leck keeping 12 for themselves, giving 7 to the French and only 2 for the U.S. Thus leaving 6 scrapped between Leck and Kassel. The French finally exchanging two against one Me 262 to the U.S. This corresponding to what the archives kept traces ie: four complete He 162 bring back to the U.S.A. (+ probably a not complete fifth one) and five to France.

Nick, have you found any document about how many He 162 given to the U.S. by the British ? Since the four abandoned at Kassel were probably under U.S. hands I believe British actually gave more 6 than 2 He162 to the U.S…


Cheers, Olivier

[Nick Beale]

Nick, have you found any document about how many He 162 given to the U.S. by the British ? Since the four abandoned at Kassel were probably under U.S. hands I believe British actually gave more 6 than 2 He162 to the U.S…

Cheers, Olivier

Sorry, what I posted was from notes I made over 20 years ago. I didn't find very much in those files, as I remember.

[Steve Coates]

I have a two page document in my files entitled 'G.A.F. Aircraft In British Area Allotted to U.S.'. I'm pretty sure I got this from Richard Smith many moons ago. It is a typed document but it has a number of handwritten annotations made by (I believe) Hal Watson.

The first page details 13 He 162 being available - 12 at Leck and 1 at Lutjenholm. The required number is handwritten as being 4. There is also a handwritten annotation: 'see if can be flown to Cherbourg'.

This first page bears no date, neither does the second. On the second page a line has been ruled through the Leck and Lutjenholm He 162s. Against the Leck He 162s is another handwritten annotation: 'Have been picked up by this ...' (unfortunately cut off). 4 He 162s now appear on the list at Kassel. Against these there is a typed annotation 'several disassembled'. Richard interpreted this as meaning (not unreasonably) that four of the British machines were taken over by the Americans - He 162 Close Up.

I appreciate this is probably raises more questions than it answers but hope it helps a little.

[vzlion]

I was aware of White 4, but were 3 other 162s also abandoned at Kassel? Any werk numbers?
Walt

[O.Menu]

From photo proof we know abandoned at Kassel ‘white 3’ 120028, ‘white 4’ 120067, ‘yellow 6’ 310xxx and another with camouflage from the 310xxx W.Nr. range and though to be ‘white 5’.

[vzlion]

Oliver, thank you very much for the w/n info.
Walt

[vzlion]

I ran across this last night. It seems to shed some light upon where White 4 originally came from. It appears to be the same aircraft.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Heinkel_162.jpg

Walt

[Roger Gaemperle]

Walt,

Wow! An amazing find. So, if it was really photographed near Lint in assembled condition how did it get there? By air?

Does anybody recognize if it is still its original tail unit that is attached?

It even has a cover over the pitot tube. It looks as if at that point they still cared about the condition of the plane.

Cheers,
Roger

[Martin388]

AIR55/124 & 125 have a chart of captured aircraft disposals but that only says 31 He 162 were found in Germany (in the British Zone, as I understood it) and none in Denmark or Norway but not what was done with them.

AIR29/931 (Disarmament Servicing & Recovery Units 434, 435 and 436) notes that seven He 162 were among the jet/rocket aircraft dispatched to France by rail in (or by?) March 1946. The others were two Ar 234, 2 Me 262 and 4 Me 163.

Dear Nick,
it is always amazing what level of information you provide.
The fact that you mentioned the Disarm. Units, I wonder if such Disarm.Units reports also enlist Ju 388s, and He 219s found in what ever state of condition in Germany (and for the latter, probably also in Austria)?

Regards from Vienna
Martin

[Roger Gaemperle]

Hello,

I was asking myself if maybe the He 162 that finally were shipped to the US were first also brought to Kassel together with White 4 and 3 other He 162 that were left at Kassel?

As far as I could find out the following He 162 were brought to the US:


White 23 120230,

White 7 120222,

Red 1 120077
120017 (??)

Is it known which route they took from Europe to the US?

Cheers,
Roger

[vzlion]

Check this thread over on the LEMB:
http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=2715

Walt

[Roger Gaemperle]

Hi Walt,

Thanks for the link. OK, so these He 162 were documented by photographs at Kassel (perhaps there were even more?, i.e. at least the He 162 that were later brought to the US, see list below):

He 162 at Kassel


White 4 120067
Yellow 6 310017
White 3 120028
another He 162


'White 4' was apparently scrapped at Kassel (a photo of it showing it with collapsed landing gear and missing canopy exists, so I doubt it left Kassel).

Yellow 6 made it to the US according to some researchers (is there a document-proof for that?).

What about White 3? I guess it was also scrapped at Kassel as I couldn't find it in any list of He 162 in the US.

Is the following list of He 162 that were brought to the US complete?:

He 162 brought to the US


White 23 120230,

White 7 120222,

Red 1 120077
Yellow 6 300017



Cheers,
Roger