Big Collection WWII Aircraft Instrument Panels and Instruments confiscated

[wwiiaircraftinstruments]

Hello,

For years I have been collecting WWII aircraft instruments. I have built up quite an impressive historical collection.

Monday the 18th of January I had an 'invasion' of police officers & health care people in my house. The reason was a P-51 panel that was intercepted at customs (since it was sent with surface shipping...)
They entered the house at 08:30 and my girlfriend and I were not allowed to leave the building. at 14:30 they left with my WWII aircraft instruments collection.
They found my collection in the living room and confiscated everything. The reason is the luminous paint on the pointers and face of the instruments contains radium-226 which is apparently radioactive.
They told me that they will place it in concrete and dump it somewhere and that it can't pass the Dutch border anymore.

Now I have to prepare myself for a court case.
Is it legal in your country to have WWII aircraft instruments in your home?
Did you ever hear of a similar case?

I have found a good lawyer and he will request the return of the items.
For obtaining information regarding this matter I have read a lot of articles on the internet. Some are very negative about Radium-226
I called a seller in the Netherlands, the RAF Duxford Museum, Museum Speyer, 2 small aviation museums in the Netherlands, a watches & clocks dealer and a few aviation enthusiasts. Unfortunately I still don't know much more about the subject.
I have checked the law and it is not clear. If you are going to show it to the public as in a museum you need a license, but as a privat person you cannot obtain such a license.
I have bought loads of items from a lot of different countries and never had a problem. I have received most of them by post, declaring 'old used wwII aircraft instruments'
I have brought a complete Ju-87 & a Ju-88 panels from the UK to the Netherlands by plane without any problem at customs.

I feel quite helpless and that this hobby is illegal is quite shocking news for me. I would even prefer to go to prison than lose the collection this way.

An overview of the Items that were taken:

Complete Panels:

Luftwaffe:
Manned fi 103, DFS Olympia Meise, JU-87 D, Ju 88 A-4, Me 109 G-6, Focke Wulf A-8, He-162, He 219.

Allied:
Spitfire mk XIV, Mustang P-51 D
3 blind flying panels RAF early, mid and late war. I also had some very rare RAF instruments such as 2x Spitfire fuel gauge 1x Hurricane fuel gauge.

Instruments:

2 x very big Luftwaffe compass (the one under the Ju-88 panel and in the 'back seat' of the Me-110)
5 x big compass
4 x small compass fl 23334
15 Horizons
10 x Turn & bank
10 Speedometers
15 Altimeters
...etc etc etc
And a lot of very rare gauges, many in mint condition.

15 Japanese instruments.

I had 150-200 instruments!! of which 80% Luftwaffe.

I am working on a list of all the instruments that were taken, I will post it soon.

My first concern is the destruction of this unique historical, technical material. My second concern is that I am completely broke, for years I have spent every euro I had for this fascinating hobby.

Since I have to fight against the Dutch goverment I need a miracle, a good lawyer and all the relevant information I could get, so if you have any official, written information or statements from specialists that could be useful in my case I would be very grateful.

Thanks for your support!

Liad van Praag

[Flitzer]

That sends my blood boiling. Ask them if there is a reward for turning in other locations that have this dangerous material. Start by giving them this address:

14390 Air and Space Museum Parkway
Chantilly, Virginia 20151

There are a lot of other museums with this stuff in plain site with thousands of people walking arms length of this dangerous material every week!

I should hope your case would be laughed out of court, but make sure you keep very close tabs on those items because they tend to "vanish".

Good luck,

[Huib Ottens]

Hi Laid,

Have you considered contacting "Hart van Nederland" or "de Telegraaf"?

They probably will be interested in presenting this case to the general public and probably nationwide publicity will be helpfull.

[Andy Saunders]

There have already been issues with this in the UK, most particularly with museum collections. I think there are likely to be increasing problems with this area of collecting/dealing etc and especially when it comes to public sale or display or mailing such material through the post.

I am unclear as to the impact in the UK on private collectors, but the Health & Safety at Work Act and the Ionising Radiations Regs 1999 certainly come into play with public exhibitions. Under Section 3 of the HASAW Act there is a duty of care not to expose persons not in ones employment to any harm caused by the duty holders business/activity.

None of this helps you, Liad, and we all wish you well. However, it is not an unknown "problem" in the UK.

[chuckschmitz]

I bet you can have light bulbs that contain mercury!! I'll do some checking with my son who is US Customs.

[Andy Saunders]

There is some interesting discussion going on here about radioactive instruments:

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=97884

You may find it worth a look, Liad.

You may also pick up some useful information and contacts to assist you.

[SMF144]

Yes, they are now scanning all packages at customs and even at the borders. Not for antiquities, but for the dirty stuff that could go off with a big bang. 1984 might not be that far off...

[ssg keay]

I do agree with Huib, contact the press and make this public. It will also make it much harder for parts of your collection to just vanish. I would check several of the Dutch aviation museums. I don't know if Soesterberg still has its collection of WW2 wreckage, but I know they had instruments too. Find government, or military run museums and use their exhibits as examples. Make sure you take photos of their collection. Then, go an apply for a collector, or museums license. Ask any of the small privat WW2 museums for help. You can state that you were collecting in order to put the items on public display once you had completed your collection. Good luck with that my friend. Danny

[ssg keay]

Liad, by the way...where in NL do you live? Danny

[Larry]

My father had a wrist watch with radium painted numbers on it that he wore during his forty odd years as a pilot in the RAF (one of their longest serving pilots) and he still has it now and he is still with us enjoying life in his 80's.

It's a shame these Health and Safety Act people do not put things in to proportion. But then this is quite typical of modern life in the EU where no one is consulted when making Laws and so the ordinary folk get criminalised while some businesses get away with dumping toxic waste.

[Dan O'Connell]

Well said Larry. My Dad wore one from WW2 until he died in 1990. He did not die glowing in the dark. We have same nonsense here.

[Graham Boak]

Radium paint is not "apparently radioactive" - it is radioactive. There is a known and very well documented history of deaths and disfiguring cancers from it, although generally linked with working practices at the factories using this paint, and hence higher levels of direct exposure.

The problems caused by low-level radiation are far from clear: there is considerable controversy over evidence that there is indeed no such thing as a safe level, however low this is set. It seems clear to me that those arguing strongest against it are those with a wish to avoid possible lawsuits, rather than those with a truly independent point of view. Which does not necessarily make them wrong.

Illness and deaths due to radiation are always a lottery: some people survive unharmed whereas others succumb to lower levels. I suspect that long-term exposure to this level would not affect many: or perhaps your fathers may just have been lucky.

It is the role of government agencies to be protective - there is after all a long list of cases where such protection has been inadequate for the workforce or general populace, so the modern tendency for litigation forces them that way.

[harrison987]

Ah yes...

But...

We are ALL subjected to Radiation every day...this is all due to:

- smoking
- elevation
- the area of the country you live in
- air pollution
- food (eg. potassium)
- pacemakers
- porcelain crowns
- gas lanterns while camping
- Xray machines scanning luggage at airport
- fallout from nuclear weapons testing
- if you live in stone, brick, or concrete building
- watching T.V.
- Luminous hands on wristwatches
- Smoke detectors
- and if you live within 50 miles of a coal or nuclear power plant


The AVERAGE person is exposed to 360 mrem every year.

When I was living in Canada a few years ago, I had an Tachometer glass break in my hands, and my fingers touched directly the hands, dial, and face of the instrument.

So...I had a guy come in with a Radon meter, and he swept my ENTIRE apartment, including me. He swept around 15 instruments from what I recall.

The amount was SOOOOOO negligible, it was not worth even being concerned about. And this was after I touched the radium directly.

At 1 foot from these instrument, the radiation is usually 30 times less than at the instrument's surface.

A test was done on 2 WW2 instruments and this is what was observed.

The amount of radiation was 0.5 mR/h on the surface of the gauge. At a distance of 1 foot, the radiation was less than 0.03 mR/h. At a distance of 2 feet, the radiation is difficult to distinguish from normal background radiation.

So...don't sleep on your instrument panel and you are fine...

If the average person is exposed to 360 mrem/year...jsut from REGULAR every day circumstances, than certainly the government is over-reacting....

[Adam]

Hi Laid,

Have you considered contacting "Hart van Nederland" or "de Telegraaf"?

They probably will be interested in presenting this case to the general public and probably nationwide publicity will be helpfull.

Have you likewise considered contacting your local MP and enlisting the help of someone political?

[stephen f. polyak]

Good points one and all . . .

However, and I am not being flip, don't think that the actions of the government, medical and law enforcement officials in this case, at this point at least, will yield to a few sprinkles of common sense, reason or even technical facts. Even worse, those factors may not alter the outcome later. Simply, something "radioactive" was shipped (always a no-no without quantification/declaration [but it can be done], and in today’s world of weapons of mass destruction and dirty bombs really an attention/headline getter) and this time detected (overwhelmingly these things aren't), and the trail lend to the recipient (and, worse, more “radioactive” stuff). What's the knee jerk reaction – confiscate! Here in the US, not only the items but the owner may have gone for a ride downtown. While I have doubts that the government will sort this out favorably, that is where you must turn, aided by legal representation. Imagine - believeing they are "protecting" the many - if they come down even harder in terms of individual ownership!

Got to wonder where those items are now “safely and properly” stored.

[Andy Saunders]

Indeed, so, Stephen!

I am not sure that some of the suggestions about involving the press are such a good idea. One can never be sure the angle the press will take, and that route could MASSIVELY back fire and achieve the opposite effect that Liad might desire. The press might take the government's line in this and go with the story that this is all hugely radioactive and extremely dangerous. I can see the headlines now.

That said, the media probably already know....and someone in that industry will have probably read all of this by now anyway. Its probably only a matter of time before we read lurid and sensational headlines.

[Huub Vink]

Liad, I was pointed to this forum by a friend, who had similar problems like you have now. I will try to explain the legal framework a bit. In the Netherlands there is a Radiation protection Decree (Besluit Stralingsbescherming). According to this Decree it is forbidden to have radio active marterials, unless there is a specific need to have them. In that case you can apply for a license at Senternovem. The licence contains all requirements you will have to meet.

As you can not justify the need to have radio active material, you are not allowed to have these instruments. The Aviodrome has recently received a permit and "bevrijdende vleugels" is currenly in the application proces for a permit. Senternovem does not consider "collecting instruments" a solid reason to issue a permit.

Aircraft instruments have been "discovered" by the "labour inspectorate" already a few years ago. Recently a new "market" has been discovered; The instruments in vintage vehicles! As they contain Radium as well.

About Radium paint: Most instruments painted with this paint generate quite some dose (Even above the limits for exposure for radiation workers!). Especially at short distance.
However this isn't the biggest risk. The paint is very brittle therefore most instruments are contaminated with small radioactive particles or dust. Especially when the glass of the instrument has been removed or when it is broken, the risk on an internal contamination is quite large.

I understand this might sound harsh, but for your own health and for the health of the people you live with it is better to get rid of these instruments.

I wish you good luck in court, however as the Decree forbids posession, you most probably won't get your instruments back. Hopefully the judge will decide that you won't have to pay COVRA for the removal of the instruments.

Best regards,
Huub Vink
Radiation Safety Expert

Hier kan je de laatste versie van de vergunning van het Aviodrome vinden: http://www.senternovem.nl/mmfiles/20091215-05_tcm24-326283.pdf

[Andy Saunders]

It seems from Huub's useful post that insofar as the Netherlands are concerned this must be an open and shut case - unfortunately for Liad! If those are the rules and that is the law, then I imagine not a lot can be done about it.

In the UK (and possibly elsewhere) the regulations do seem to be a little more ambiguous, and certainly open to interpretation in different ways.

I imagine that sooner or later in the UK there will be a test case, and this could well set a benchmark for what is acceptable and what is not.

[Huub Vink]

Before you take actions which can't be reversed. When I did a check of the instruments of my friend, only about 50% had dials painted with Radium. Of course the proper way to check is with a suitable dosimeter, but in most cases the Radium paint can be recognised because it is more brownish and looks more brittle than the chemical luminous paint.

One hazard I had forgotten to mention is the release of "Radon" gas because in the decay process Radium turn into Radon. Radon is known for its ability to cause Lung cancer.

For our fellow Europeans; Radiation safety legislation is more or less directed by Euratom for all its member states. However every country translates the directives to its own legislation. In all these countries the ALARA (As low as reasonably achievable) principle is applied. Therefore in all countries possession is forbidden without a proper justification. There is however a large difference in all countries what is regarded as "proper justification". One country accepts "collecting" as a proper justification and my country doesn't.
As this is most likely related to how much value a gouvernment gives to the past I personally don't think you will have a similar situation in the UK soon.

Regards,
Huub

[RolandF]

In case you are living in a country with substantial granite and gneiss formations you won´t have such problems. There´s so much "natural" radiation and Radon gas escape so there is no chance of coping with such problems. Apart from the evacuation of entire districts.

The Netherlands can afford such luxury like confiscating your collection. What makes me wonder is the obvious fact they did not contact or inform you to get an adequate solution.

Regards

Roland

[Pim-Pouw]

It seems from Huub's useful post that insofar as the Netherlands are concerned this must be an open and shut case .

I wouldn't agree with this conclusion. The degree mentioned by Huub Vink : Radiation protection Decree (Besluit Stralingsbescherming) is there to protect employees. An employee works for an employer. An employer can be ofcourse a company but also a foundation with volunteers.

This degree in the case of Radium regulates the following:

- First it is no longer permitted to make new instruments with Radium.

- Second to store them you have to keep the radiation level for your employees within certain limits.

- Third maintenance. This will in our case means opening the radium contained instruments, special regulations are there for this case.

Back to an individual. He doesn't work for an employer so this degree doen's aplly to him and therefore he cannot ask for a permit. Think for example of asbetos. Companies have to comply with strict regulations about how to handle this stuff. An individual with a shed with an asbestos roof plates is not in any violation.

Now back to Liad van Praag. The police said to him : They told me that they will place it in concrete and dump it somewhere and that it can't pass the Dutch border anymore.

So probably he is being charged of transporting dangerous goods across the border. Although this is maybe true for his P51 panel , it isn't for the rest of his collection which he probaly obtained within the Europeen borders.

I am not happy for Liad van Praag. But I am happy that this case is going to apear in court. Once there is an verdict , we as collectors in the Netherlands will finally now what we are dealing with.

my 2 cents on this case,

Pim

[Luc Vervoort]

Hi,

Not being an expert on this subject and not a collector of such items...

Is it not possible to remove the radium(or wathever substance) from the instruments, so that they are (almost) radium-free and no longer to be considered as dangerous ?


Best regards

Luc

[Huub Vink]

I wouldn't agree with this conclusion. The degree mentioned by Huub Vink : Radiation protection Decree (Besluit Stralingsbescherming) is there to protect employees.

Hi Pim, nice to meet you here as well, but I think you are wrong here. This Decree is much wider than just the employer- employee relation (In fact only chapter 7 covers occupational exposure.)

It contains the legal requirements for possession (het voor handen hebben) en working with and manufacturing (handelingen en vervaardigen), storage is seen as "working with" however storage in relation to transport isn't. The decree provides even the requirements the medical world must meet when they expose their patient to radiation.

The main reason behind this is that in the Netherlands radiation is not covered by the Enviromental Act (Wet Millieubeheer) and the Dangerous Goods Act (Wet Millieu gevaarlijke stoffen, see Article 3 from this Act). Therefore the Nuclear(energy) Act" (Kernenergiewet) and the Radiation protection Decree cover all aspects of radiation.

The base on which possession is illegal is Article 29 from the Nuclear Act, which refers to the substances defined in the Decree.

Is it not possible to remove the radium(or wathever substance) from the instruments, so that they are (almost) radium-free and no longer to be considered as dangerous ?

It is possible, however you this will be costly and can only be done by experts. And you should wonder whether the instrument still has its value as "original". I can't remember which organisation did was, but a historical organisation replaced all Radium painted dails in their aircrafts by photografic repoductions.

Regards,
Huub

[Andy Saunders]

Pim

An interesting post!

So, it isn't straightforward after all. I suppose that shouldn't surprise any of us.

In the UK if one operated a business or undertaking (lets say self employed) then there is a legal duty placed upon that person under Section 3 of the Health & Safety at Work Act not to do anything that might affect the health, safety or welfare of persons not in ones employment. So, selling items that may contain radium and are likely to cause harm to a person not in ones employment (ie a customer or potential customer) would be an offence - and that is quite aside from anything laid down in the Ionising Radiations Regs. There is already a ban on such sales via e-bay and in placing any such material in the postal service.

Clearly, and quite apart from how businesses (including museums!) might have an affect on a third party, there could also be public health issues to neighbours, family, visitors, tradesmen etc who may be invited onto a property where there are radioactive substances kept by a collector/dealer.

It is all a minefield. A radioactive one!!

[Larry]

How many collectors of WW2 aircraft instruments have died of radiation poisoning in the last 65 years I wonder? None I'm sure!

There's more risk to the collector from being killed by an aircraft panel falling from the top shelf in his garage or God forbid if he cuts his finger on a nasty sharp bit of metal and dies of blood poisoning!

When I think of all the simple things I did as a lad that now are classed as dangerous by the Heath & Safety 'industry' it makes me sad for my children. People need to get a grip with reality and for the future make sure laws that are used to protect us from real nuclear threats are not used to make a criminal out of a collector. But then that's going to be very hard, as someone recently said you cannot legislate for 450 million Europeans without getting it wrong for someone most of the time.

[Andy Saunders]

Larry

For the avoidance of doubt.....I am entirely with you!

Just in case my previous post gave the impression I was toeing the 'elf n safety line. I was just trying to say how it is out there, and not how it ought to be!

[stephen f. polyak]

Legally, none of this appears "cut-and-dried”, one size fits all. Let's hope not at least.

Can’t imagine the Dutch officials who prepared the laws and regulations being discussed/interpreted here considered this sort of situation - a privately-owned collection of vintage items (with both monetary and historic value) holding relatively small amounts of sealed radium. No one has cited sections that absolutely apply. The brush is broad. This has to be worked through the court(s). And the community needs to be prepared for the outcome - good or bad - as, likely, it will eventually reach beyond Liad and the Netherlands.

The first thing that should happen it to restrain any harm to the items until a ruling is reached. The police enforce law, they do not make or litigate it. I doubt the law simply says confiscate radioactive material and then dress it in concrete and check it into a landfill. (Not only would radium be buried, but history.)

Could the instruments be assumed by one or more museums (in and/or outside the Netherlands); it sounded above like display exceptions are permitted in that country and are not (yet) needed in others? Will Liad be compensated if ownership is lost; could he retain a form of ownership through a museum holding transfer?

Minefields are hazardous, but, in time, they can be cleared. Here, one wonders how many collector casualties there will be in the process.

[harrison987]

Question...

Did they have a warrant to enter your apartment? Or did they simply show up, and ask the property owner to let them in?

If no warrant, than here in the US, it is called ILLEGAL SEARCH AND SEIZURE. You would then get the items back, and they would have no case.

I think the comment "burying them in concrete so they not pass the Dutch border", sounds pretty irresponsible. Is it me, or is that a strange way to deal with radium? IF they do that, they have to post a SIGN to everyone who walks over that area that it contains Radioactive Material, and then protect every single person who walks near it...

The fact is, YOU ar the OWNER of those items. I would try to work out a way to save the instruments...come to some sort of agreement to let them be displayed in a museum, but still have them belonging to you....SOMETHING that stps these from becoming destroyed. Tell them you'll accept whatever "charges" they come up with, IF they save the instruments from destruction.

We are talking about HISTORY here...not just personal belongings.

I don't understand why after Customs opened the box and SAW an instrument panel, they came to some conclusion that you were a health risk, and came to your apartment to confiscate things. None of that makes ANY sense.

Usually there has to be some sort of proof and reasoning for them to enter. They should have just sent the panel back to where it came from, or contacted you directly. I do not understand the correlation between, "they guy imported an WW2 instrument Panel"...to "this guy is DANGEROUS, this one instrument panel full of radium must mean he has a FULL apartment of instuments...we MUST confiscate everything he has!!"

...seems very odd.

There is radiation in EVEYRTHING...and smoking kills more people in 1 year...

How many museums HAVE raidum instruments, and DO NOT display signage to indicate such? if they are SOOOOOOOOOO dangerous as they are claiming, why does NO museum warn ALL visiters of potential raidum side-effects if they come to the museum...?

gggggggggrrrrrrrr

[Andy Saunders]

This has been sent to me by a major player in the historic warbird field in light of recent events. I post it without further comment (and with his permission) save to say that it may provoke some more useful and informed debate on this forum:

Ex-military Instruments with Radium (luminous) Dials.

Below is a short dissertation on the subject, written not by a specialist, but an aircraft restorer with an enquiring mind and is based on published data easily accessible.

Dealing with any instrument containing Radium 226, is fraught with dangers and it must be clearly understood there is no known safe limit of the radiation emitted. The Dutch collector who had his many instrument panels confiscated may have had his life saved. Read on and see why.

The luminous paint is made up of three main constituents, including the subject material Radium, which reacts with another compound in the paint creating the luminous effect; there is also a binder in the material to hold it together in the form of paint. It decays to a light/dark brown colour over age and is usually quite easy to spot in an instrument.

This element, Radium (Ra) with the atomic number 88, is 1,000 times more radioactive than Uranium; it is one of the most radioactive elements known to mankind. The isotope Ra-226 has a half-life of some 1600 years and decays into Radon gas.

Radium emits Alpha, Beta and Gamma rays. The glass will stop the Alpha particles (very dangerous), and most of the Beta, but the Gamma(also potentially dangerous)can only be stopped with a thick layer of lead. Radon gas will also be present but will dissipate in a ventilated environment. The radiation damages living cells and is absorbed into the bones, as there is a similarity to calcium but the body cannot differentiate between the two elements in the processing of ingested material. The greatest danger is the dust that is released when the instrument is disturbed; breathe it in and you will be building up serious trouble for your health. The dust will contain Alpha particles which, once free can do the greatest damage if absorbed by the body. I quote from Wikipedia on the subject: ”Because of the high mass and strong absorption, if Alpha emitting radio-nuclides do enter the body (if the radioactive material has been inhaled or ingested), they are the most destructive form of ionizing radiation….and large enough doses can cause any of the symptoms of radiation poisoning…. etc”. Well worth a read if you are in any doubt of what you are dealing with.

As can be seen, the greatest danger is the ingestion of the dust from a broken instrument, or by the casual removal of the luminous paint. As far as is known there is no facility for removing this material and in anycase it will have irradiated the material around it. Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should these instruments be kept in your home – especially a bedroom, and concentrations of individual instruments should never be greater than 25-30.

We have all dismantled these instruments at some stage and while it is not known how little contamination is ‘safe’, it should be assumed that ‘nothing at all’ should be the base line. Obviously, the closer you are to the source, the greater the danger and of course the duration of exposure is relevant.

So – what next? There is a remote danger of terrorists buying up quantities of these instruments, removing the radium in dust form - ensuring by doing so their imminent passage to the thereafter - mixing with a drying clay or similar and packing around a conventional explosive device. They won’t be bothered with making a nuclear bomb from these minute quantities of radioactive material, but making a so-called ‘dirty bomb’ scattering this dust and causing mayhem in the process, as the cleaning up will be a very long and expensive process. We must all therefore be aware of this and be careful who buys the instruments if you sell them. There is certainly a duty of care if nothing else, as if – God forbid – a dirty bomb was set off in a sensitive public area, then our hobby of old aviation may be over in a flash (not a nuclear one but a legislative one!).






That’s the bad news, but is there any good? Are we allowed to possess these instruments? Under the Atomic Energy and Radioactive Substances Act (1985 no.1048) The Radioactive Substances (Luminous Articles) Exemption Order 1985, it seems possibly so, providing the maximum number of Becquerel (per instrument) does not exceed certain limits. There are other conditions and one is that the source is kept behind glass and there are also restrictions on disposal. Under UK law it seems that the collector in Holland may have been allowed to keep his panels, but from a practical point of view he was playing with fire. There are common sense rules, not just the law of the land that you need to take heed of. You also need to be aware that some of the earliest instruments from the 1st World War for example – have the greatest concentrations of this compound.

Be aware – there are many radiation meters available on e-bay, but the vast majority are surplus items that are either broken or inaccurate, or mainly designed to detect the results of an atomic explosion or a major accident (such as Chernobyl) and are therefore not necessarily suitable for holding against your Spitfire instrument to see how many Becquerel are being emitted. Take advice first and research it before clicking that ever-so tempting ‘Buy Now” button!

From a practical point of view I hope that the authorities – when they are made aware of the extent of the problem – and believe me they are watching us all the time – will be tolerant of Warbird operators, and providing the cockpit canopy is left open to allow the Radon gas to disperses, little else is required. Servicing the instruments though is another matter, and precautions will have to be met. In order to exceed the Act above, a licence will probably have to be obtained, unless the entire process is kept behind glass.

On a final note – do be aware that this is not the definitive word on the subject and this is a guide only – do the research first if you are concerned.

[Pim-Pouw]

Hi Huub,

Started to read the Nuclear(energy) Act" (Kernenergiewet) , this mention a limit of 10e5 Becquerel for Radium. I found a document which puts a wristwatch at aprox a maximum of 0.2 uCu which would put it within the limit but an aircraft instrument will use a lot more radium.

Have you ever done measurements on aircraft instruments ?

I slightly disagree with your conclusions about "working with" is the same as storage and the same as possesion. If we take Mercury as an example. You are allowed possesion of this material, but if you store it in such a way that it will harm your surroundings , that is nature , people , animals etc you will be in violation of the enviromental act.


Please correct me if I am wrong. :D

Greetings, Pim

[Huub Vink]

As I don't have the same documents and I don't have all the limits for every nuclide in my head I can not confirm or deny that an activity of 74 kBq on a wristwatch is below the threshold above which a permit is required.

Radium is an alpha emitter. As the alphas are blocked by the glass of the instrument you can only measure the secondary radiation. It is therefore virtually impossible to calculate the real activity. But on several instruments I have measured a dose rate above 25 µSv/hr, while the exposure limit for non-radiation workers is 1 µSv/hr.

As it is very hard to translate Dutch legislation I will write you an e-mail to explain the legal context. (I still must have your e-mail address somewhere).

For the Americans there isn't a real problem. In the US an aviation instrument is considered a sealed unit, therefore the presence of radio-active material is not taken in account.

Regards,
Huub

[taitbb]

Here is a link to the Canadian legislation.

http://www.nuclearsafety.gc.ca/eng/readingroom/factsheets/devices/index.cfm#3

A2. A person may possess, transfer and use any number of radium luminous devices without a licence, provided that radium is the only nuclear substance in the device and the device is intact and not tampered with.

Q8. What about public displays? A8. If a radium luminous device is on display, a public access boundary should be placed to exclude access to at least one metre from the display. Radium luminous devices should never be used in ‘hands-on’ displays.
http://www.nuclearsafety.gc.ca/images/tphp.gif (http://www.nuclearsafety.gc.ca/eng/readingroom/factsheets/devices/index.cfm#S1)

[BOBC]

Liad Van Praag
It appears from what I read that you need to have an approved reason for storing these and collecting is not sufficient reason in your country, though such is allowed elsewhere, even over the border in Belgium, but a museum in your country would be allowed to store and display them. I suggest you contact museums and have them take these internationally important and not to be destroyed items and display them on long term loan from you. Such can be displayed in other countries. Museums are about preserving valuable pieces of history and should jump at the chance, especially if you have aviation museums there.
Also is there any law in having these items removed from Holland ? Try museums outside of Holland. Even collectors outside of Holland. I know of one in Belgium. Get it written down as to who has ownership...i.e. you. Collectors will be glad to provide a service to preserving what are historically invaluable items. Items that are allowed outside of your country if they are in a safe intact state. There is also mention on Key Publishing forum of a replacement glass that will render them safe.
Ownership of these is not illegal, having them not in a museum in your country is, so make arrangements to have them resited elsewhere. The museums or collectors travelling to where they are now held to remove them out of Holland or into Dutch Museums.
You are but a keeper in this timezone of items which must be preserved. These are of international significance and your local police should not have the power to destroy items of this importance just because they were sited in your house. Pay the fines and plead ignorance. State that you were building up a finite complete item before seeking museum display opportunities, as no museum would want a part project.

Hope these ideas help you. I shall personally be outraged if the authorities there destroy such historic items when safe display is but a sensible level headed phone call away. You were not holding these so as to use them in a deliberate way to cause harm. They should focus their attentions on the more seedy side of life in Holland, on people that are a pain in the side of society there and not on individuals who unknowingly have broken a law, a law that is not even existing in other sane countries. They the authorities would be displaying levels of irresponsibility, not you. They would be the criminals. Who were you harming, yourself. Perhaps they can shoot you for harming yourself ! Certainly the emotional and financial damage they will do to you will be more harmful than the harm of keeping intact instruments. Certainly though any damaged ones or those with dust from contact with broken ones should be removed and cleaned in an approved way or disposed of as such. Sensible cleansing with correct protective clothing, approved glass replacement etc will render those items valuable enough to warrant this displayable again.
Get a good lawyer. These are items that are ok to be sited in some buildings in Holland, just not your premises, simple, get them moved. Re-possess them but away from your premises and sell some to ofset lawyer costs. Make sure the authorities are aware they must be seen to be sensible about this and take part in the resiting of such historical items, otherwise others with such in their possessions will be frightened to rehouse them, they will disappear into attics etc which is counter productive to the authorities aims and where more harm can be done according to them, though the danger to neighbours would appear to be nil anyway !

One also wonders how many you are allowed to have, would one be ok ? I am aware of large pocket watches that have Radium on their faces, do the police also burst into watch collectors houses and seize such ? wartime watches can have celluloid faces, surely thats less protective than glass ? Its the radium thats illegal, not the instrument, so if watch collectors with such are legal, you may try for a loophole in the law there. I have also seen WW2 army compasses with radium on the outside, are they illegal ? Is a collector of jeeps in your country also going to be pounced on, their instruments contain radium I see according to forums. Your lawyer must get these resited and the case laughed out of court if similar collectors are still legal.
BOBC

[Thruster763]

Hi,
I'm new to the forum, but would like to comment on this subject. While it is unfortunate that the instruments were confiscated, I must say that keeping this number of instruments in a living space is a very bad idea. Assuming the instruments are not broken or disassembled, the biggest problem is Radon (222Rn) gas. This is a decay product of the Radium. It deposits it's own decay products (including radioactive Lead and Polonium) in the lungs. This causes direct radiation to delicate tissues and can cause lung cancer. Turn and Bank (slip) indicators are one of the worst offenders. They can have large areas of paint behind the slip bubble, and a large air intake area for the Radon to escape.
The UK HSE recommends an "Action Level" of 2.5uSv/hr radiation exposure rate at the pilots seat of an aircraft with radium instruments. This would also be a good guide for the radiation at the normal viewing distance from a display. Most importantly owners should under NO circumstances try to remove the radioactive paint to make the instrument "safe". This will just spread contamination around the work area and possible internal contamination. If an instrument is broken, use disposable gloves and seal it in at least two plastic bags.
Disposal is a big issue, in the UK there is no permanent disposal site for Radium, it has to be stored. Don't keep instruments in occupied areas especially bedrooms. Storage should be well ventilated. On Geiger counters, it's hard to recommend anything specific, but I can give some definite no's. Don't use the Plessey PDRM-82 series that are cheap on ebay. they will not give any response below that which is a serious and immediate threat, certainly not the "hottest" aircraft instrument. Also avoid ex-military RADIAC meters. Most are too insensitive or are too old to be reliable. To measure the dose rate (amount of exposure), make an assessment (not even reasonably accurate measurment) of the quantity and check for contamination would require at least two, probably three quality instruments (possibly one instrument with two or three specialised probes). This is not a job for a cheap ex soviet radiation meter bought on ebay. While I personally think the risk from instruments is small, there a principle called ALARP (As Low As Reasonably Practical) for radiation exposure, this means the authorities take different and variable views. ALARP is a good idea. Unfortunatly while the risk is low, the benefit of collections is also low (in the eyes of the regulators). A quick disclaimer, I'm not a radiation expert, but a keen hobbyist. I'm also a licensed avionics engineer and have worked in instrument repair shops.

Robert.

[Flying_pencil]

I realize this has been a while, but any news on this?

Also, it is a important lesson for the rest of us.

S!

[wwiiaircraftinstruments]

Hello,

There is still no news regarding the confiscation of my WWII instruments!!

Though I did receive scans of the confiscated items a while ago.

Just send me an email and I will forward it to you.

Kind regards,

Liad van Praag

[mathieu]

Hi Liad,

Wonder if there is any news concerning the instruments. I heared rumours that most went to the collection of Aviodrome in Lelystad, is that correct?

Regards,

Mathieu.

[Flying_pencil]

I realize this is resurrecting a zombie, but wondering if there is any news.

AND, new laws and such for collectors to be aware about.