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Brian
1st October 2005, 17:29
Hi guys

I have just joined your honourable guild of aviation experts. I am conducting research into friendly fire incidents for my new book. I am interested in all such incidents concerning misidentification in the air during WWII, and seek your help. My two-volume study covers all air forces, in all theatres of the war. Quite an undertaking, no doubt you will agree. My draft already contains hundreds of recorded incidents but I am sure there are more to be uncovered. Please help!

vingtor
5th October 2005, 14:27
Well, as one airman once said "there's nothing friendly with friendly fire".

Nils

en830
5th October 2005, 22:05
A recent issiue of After the Battle gives a classic example of Friendly fire concerning the loss of Douglas Bader in 1941.

Paul
6th October 2005, 16:48
Brian,

George Preddy is one of those sad examples....

http://www.preddy-foundation.org/


Paul

John Beaman
6th October 2005, 18:53
Brian, if you wish to do George Preddy, contact me OB. There is a lot more to the story we have discovered over the years (I was involved in much of the original research for the Preddy book), including two accidental shoot downs the first of which took us 20 years to discover WAS NOT Preddy, but the second one was, but both were 8th AAF aces!

John

Laurent Rizzotti
6th October 2005, 21:13
Brian, are you researching only air-to-air friendly fire, or also interested in air-to-ground, ground-to-air, air-to-sea and sea-to-air mishaps ? Only to speak of cases where aircraft were involved.

As for A2A friendly fire, the French book about the Armée de l'Air claims in 1940 ("LES VICTOIRES DE L’AVIATION DE CHASSE FRANÇAISE LES VICTOIRES DE L’AVIATION DE CHASSE FRANÇAISE", two book by Arnaud Gillet) is showing some cases of British-French friendly fire I have never seen elsewhere (but I should admit the 1940 campain is not my study subject).

Paul
6th October 2005, 21:21
Hi John,

We're still trying to find any remains of George Preddy's a/c.....I'm in contact with both Joe N. and Joe H. for that.

Take care,

Paul

noahbjr
7th October 2005, 00:38
I, too, have just joined the group thanks to Paul Patist. And I would encourage you, Brian, to get in touch with John Beaman and Sam Sox re the friendly fire incident that killed my cousin, George Preddy. They have done a tremendous amount of research on this one!

Best regards,

Joe Noah, PMF

Paul
7th October 2005, 21:49
Joe,

Welcome here !


Paul

Brian
8th October 2005, 13:31
Hi guys

Thanks for the various comments re my quest for friendly fire (blue-on-blue)incidents. I do intend to include air-to-air, air-to-ground and ground-to-air, plus other related incidents such 'white-on-blue' (attacks on Allied/Axis aircraft by neutral aircraft), 'blue-on-white' (attacks on neutral aircraft by Allied/Axis aircraft), aircraft collisions with (own) barrage balloons, etc.

Please understand that I am not sensationalising such incidents but consider they are an important part of aviation history which tends to be overlooked by historians.

Nils - of course you are correct - no such animal as 'friendly' fire! And yes, Ian, I have picked up on the Bader incident. Its is apparent that I do not have full details of the George Preddy incident and will follow up on your suggestions Paul, John and Joe.

Laurent - among my many failings is an inability to read French very well - are you able to translate for me the incidents mentioned in Arnaud Gillet's book? If this is too great a task, may I ask you to provide further details of the book to enable me to purchase a copy? Many thanks.

Have a nice one and keep smiling

Brian

Juha
8th October 2005, 16:23
Hello Brian
during the couple last years there have been discussions on German attacks against Finnish a/c and Finnish attacks on German aircraft during 1941-44 period in http://www.network54.com/Forum/46825. Discussions are in English.

HTH
Juha

Franek Grabowski
8th October 2005, 19:01
Brian
I am still experiencing some problems with my e-mail account.
Anyway, I estimate friendly fire took about 20% of combat losses, so quite a substantial problem, never properly analysed to my knowledge. Those incidents involved many famous pilots - s**t happens.
PS I see we have another subject to discuss as well!

Brian
8th October 2005, 20:47
Thanks Juha - I have just spent the last couple of hours perusing the net54 forum - fascinating and I have picked up some new info, Many thanks.

Franek - I too am having trouble with my e-mails - I can send but not receive! Hope to sort this out soon, so if you have e-mailed me I trust you'll understand the delay in responding. Look forward to hearing from you.

Brian

Andy Mac
8th October 2005, 21:39
Hi Brian - an exciting prospect! I can think of a number of incidents well documented :

1. Dizzy Allen 66 sqn who vociforously describes being shot at by Britisk ack ack over Dover ( and later discovered he had been claimed as a kill by Werner Molders ! )

2. Brian Kingcome 92 sqn being bounced by a Spitfire which cruised past as he prepared to bail out.

3. A deliberate friendly fire incident described by Mr Kingcome in his book ' A Willingness To Die '.

4. Chuck Yeager in his P51 returning over Dover from a sweep and being shot at by British ack ack and saying to his wingman ' Goddamn it let's go down there and shoot back at those sons of b****es '. I think he did as well.

Tally Ho!

atckyrre
8th October 2005, 22:19
Brian

I trust you have Bomann's book about air warfare over Sweden during the war. Incredibly detailed covering also the "incidents" where german and allied aircraft were shot down by Swedes.
If you don't have it please let me know.

Kyrre
Harstad, Norway.

jhor99
9th October 2005, 18:15
Hi guys

I have just joined your honourable guild of aviation experts. I am conducting research into friendly fire incidents for my new book. I am interested in all such incidents concerning misidentification in the air during WWII, and seek your help. My two-volume study covers all air forces, in all theatres of the war. Quite an undertaking, no doubt you will agree. My draft already contains hundreds of recorded incidents but I am sure there are more to be uncovered. Please help!

I notice that all previous comments have to do with ground fire downing friendly aircraft.
There were incidents where aircraft bombers shot diwn friendly planes. We knew that if a plane pointed his nose at you to open fire immediately,There were times when P-38s had an engine shot out, in order to join a formation of bombers the plane had to slide in and not try to go nose in.

Brian
9th October 2005, 22:16
Hi Kyrre

Do you mean Bo Widfeldt's books? If so, I have and am in touch with Bo. Thanks anyway.

Hi Jules - yes, sadly bombers did account for many friendly fire incidents - quite understandable in the circumstances. Do you have any personal recollections?

Cheers,
Brian

atckyrre
10th October 2005, 00:55
Hi Kyrre

Do you mean Bo Widfeldt's books? If so, I have and am in touch with Bo. Thanks anyway.


Doh. Minor brainfart. Yes I meant Widfeldt. :)

One slightly odd situ that might not be for your book but interresting nevertheless is the incident with the 11 Ju-52s that landed on Hartvikvann in Northern Norway during the invasion in 1940. Off the top of my head one got airborne while the rest remained on the ice in various states, though some quite flyable. At one point the Norwegians chased the Germans away and the planes were all of a sudden Norwegian. Apparently they started to prepare the planes for a move to Bardufoss further north.
Alas the FAA was not informed about this and the planes were strafed by Skuas. It could be that they were also attacked by Norwegian Heinkel 115's but right now I can't remember all the details.

I'm sure others has got the proper account should you be interested

Kyrre

atckyrre
10th October 2005, 05:50
I was reading the story about the Norwegian Airforce during the war (Luftforsvarets historie - 5 år i utlegd, by Vera Henriksen) and chanced upon a friendly fire incident.
One of the previously Norwegian Heinkel He115's (Ex. "F.56" of the Royal Norwegian Navy Air Force") ,flying with the socalled Helensburgh Group with the Marine Aircraft Experimental Establishment, was shot at by two Polish Spitfires near Isle of Wight some time in the spring of '42. Starboard propeller was shot to pieces and the wing started burning. But the aircraft was saved only to be destroyed later in a fueling accident.

One curiousity was the incident where previous F.64, which was a He115 captured from the Germans in 1940, was shot up by two Bf109's at its Malta mooring early 1942... (Lamb, War in a Stringbag, p213).

Kyrre

atckyrre
10th October 2005, 06:03
Since I'm on a roll and I'm on a nightshift here are two Norwegian pilots listed as fallen from friendly fire in the same book:
- Lt. Per Adolph Thorén, 85 Sqn, 08.10.42, Presumed shot down by British ackack at Dover
- Maj. Leif Lundsten, 331(N) Sqn, 09.06.44, Shot down by allied ack ack

Brian
10th October 2005, 10:26
Hi Kyrre

Thanks for the stream of incidents. However, I do have note of all mentioned, but please keep me advised of any others you may come across. Don't work too hard - it makes me feel guilty!!

Have a nice one

Brian

Laurent Rizzotti
10th October 2005, 13:22
Hi guys

Laurent - among my many failings is an inability to read French very well - are you able to translate for me the incidents mentioned in Arnaud Gillet's book? If this is too great a task, may I ask you to provide further details of the book to enable me to purchase a copy? Many thanks.

Brian

Hi Brian, I have currently connexion problems at home but as soon as possible I will post here a list of the friendly fire occurences listed in the book. Then I will translate details of any case you may be interested in. I will have to translate them in English one day or another anyway.

Here is a case of air-to-sea friendly fire I would like to know more about:

On the night of 1 October 1944 destroyer USS DD-492 Bailey was on picket duty under a full moon off the Palaus, 06°59'N, 134°13'E, when one or more torpedo planes made two severe strafing attacks on her, killing three officers and 6 enlisted men (two of them were BM1C Charles P Mason and Cox William A. Knauss) and wounding 16 other enlisted men. Later reports were that it was Allied pilots who mistook her for an enemy craft (according to a member of the crew). Damage was extensive and she limped back as far as Manus of the Admiralty group where a tender repaired her sufficiently to return to the states, arriving 28 October at to Mare Island for permanent repairs.
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/USN-Chron/USN-Chron-1944.html (http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/USN-Chron/USN-Chron-1944.html)
http://www.hazegray.org/danfs/destroy/dd492txt.htm (http://www.hazegray.org/danfs/destroy/dd492txt.htm)
http://htmlgear.tripod.com/guest/control.guest?u=dd492 (http://htmlgear.tripod.com/guest/control.guest?u=dd492)
http://htmlgear.tripod.com/guest/control.guest?u=dd492&i=1&a=view (http://htmlgear.tripod.com/guest/control.guest?u=dd492&i=1&a=view)
http://www.abmc.gov/searchww.htm (http://www.abmc.gov/searchww.htm)
http://htmlgear.tripod.com/guest/control.guest?u=dd492 (http://htmlgear.tripod.com/guest/control.guest?u=dd492)
http://www.abmc.gov/searchww.htm (http://www.abmc.gov/searchww.htm)
Veteran registry: http://www.destroyers.org/smrdd/USS_Bailey.html (http://www.destroyers.org/smrdd/USS_Bailey.html)

Brian
10th October 2005, 15:22
Thanks Laurent, I look forward to your generous offer.

I regret that I am unable to provide you with the informaion you seek re USS Bailey. Since my study will be in two volumes, I have concentrated most of my efforts to Volume I, which covers the ETO. If and when I find anything useful re your request I will contact you. Apologies for the time being.

Cheers
Brian

Brian

Juha
12th October 2005, 09:01
Brian
if You got 3 incidents (LW's Schumacher vs DH 89, Karu vs. He 111 and Nissinen vs. Ju 188) those were all I can remember from recent years that were discussed on that board. If You want more info on the Nissinen vs. Ju 188, please send a PM.

Juha

Laurent Rizzotti
12th October 2005, 12:31
The list below, listing cases of friendly fire where French aircraft were involved from September 1939 to June 1940 (known to me) is drawn from the following sources:
Martin's book about Armée de l'Air losses ("Ils étaient là")
Gillet's books on French victoires (tome 1, 10-15 May, tome 2, 16 May-4 June)
AéroJournal n° 3 (about night fighters Potez 631, often identified as Bf110) and n° 18 (about Aéronavale)

16 Oct 1939: Mureaux 115 GAO 1/520 damaged by 1 Morane 406 over Saar Valley. Pilot wounded

22 Nov 1939: Bloch 131 GR I/36 shot down by Morane 406 GC II/2 over Aisne. 2 KIA, 2 WIA

21 Dec 1939: Potez 637 GR II/33 shot down by 2 Hurricanes over Meuse. 2 KIA, 1 WIA

14 Apr 1940: Dutch submarine O10 bombed in error off Dutch coast by two V.156F of AB3. No damage

10 May 1940: bomber claimed shot down by 3 pilots GC III/1 over Termonde was probably Blenheim L9246 57 Sqn RAF.

12 May 1940: Fairey Fox 7/III/3 (Belgium) shot down by GC III/2 & GC III/7 near Huy. Crew unhurt.

13 May 1940: two Potez 631 ECMJ 1/16 damaged by Hurricanes near Betheniville. No loss.

14 May 1940: four Battles 142 Sqn RAF shot down by GC III/7 in Sedan area. 5 KIA

15 May 1940: Bloch 152 of GC II/1 possibly shot down by friendly fire (in fight, another pilot of the same unit fired on an aircraft that he was unable to identify and saw him crash, no German loss in the area).

17 May 1940: three Blenheims 82 Sqn RAF shot down by GC I/4 and AC2 off Ostend. 9 KIA

18 May 1940: LeO 451 GB II/31 shot down by French AA near Meaux. 1 KIA
18 May 1940: Potez 631 ECN 2/13 hit by He 111, Bf 110, French AA and Morane 406 near Creil, returned to base.
18 May 1940: two Potez 631 of AC2 shot down by Blenheim 248 Sqn RAF off Nieuport. 3 KIA, 1 WIA
18 May 1940: Blenheim 235 Sqn RAF shot down by GC II/8 off Ostende. 3 KIA (shot down by Spitfire/Hurricanes according to RAF)

19 May 1940: L-N.411 of AB4 shot down by French AA at Etreux. Pilot KIA.

20 May 1940: Potez 631 ECN 2/13 damaged by D520.

21 May 1940: D520 GC II/3 shot down by return fire of Potez 631 ECN 4/13 (during 4th attack) over Oise. Pilot KIA

23 May 1940: Potez 631 ECN 3/13 shot down by Bloch 152 GC I/1. 1 KIA, 1 WIA
23 May 1940: French ships opened fire against a formation of V.156F of AB1 off Boulogne

24 May 1940: two Martin 167F GB I/63 shot down by Allied AA (probably British) near Lille. 5 KIA, 1 survivor
24 May 1940: Hurricane landing at Rouen attacked by a "French Curtiss" (?)

25 May 1940: 2 pilots GC II/3 wounded by French AA

26 May 1940: two Martin 167F GB I/62 shot down by GC II/3 in Amiens area.

28 May 1940: two Skuas 806 Sqn FAA reported attacks by Curtiss off Dunkerque. 1 lost, crew saved, another returned to base with gunner fatally wounded. No trace in French claims.

1 Jun 1940: Bloch 152 GC II/8 damaged by Hurricanes off Dunkerque

2 Jun 1940: Potez 631 ECN 1/13 hit by French AA over Lassigny. 1 WIA
2 Jun 1940: two Potez 631 ECN 4/13 hit by French AA over Villers-Coterets. 1 force-landed and lost. 3 WIA.

3 Jun 1940: confused battle between 501 Sqn RAF, GC I/8 and 7./JG 53 in the morning. Only two Hurricanes shot down, one possibly by a French pilot.
3 Jun 1940: Potez 631 ECN 1/13 attacked by French AA, 7 Bf 109s and 1 Bloch 152 during German raid on Paris. Pilot reported the Bf 109s were the less dangerous.
3 Jun 1940: two Potez 631 ECN 4/13 fired on by French AA (of their own airfield) during German raid on Paris.

4 Jun 1940: L-N.411 of AB4 shot down by a Polish pilot of Romorantin defence patrol. Pilot wounded.

10 Jun 1940: Laté 298 of T2 hit by AA of French ships off Honfleur and sank after landing. Crew OK.

12 Jun 1940: Bloch 152 GC I/8 shot down "in error", no more details, between Chaumont and Troyes. Pilot lightly wounded.

22 Jun 1940: CAMS 55.10 of 4S1 shot down by Morane GC III/5 near Cape Zerbib, Tunisia. Pilot wounded

Total:
17 French losses (and one more possible) to "friendly fire"
1 Belgian aircraft and 8 British one shot down by French pilots, 3 more British aircrafts possibly shot down by French pilots

For most of the cases above, more details are available

Smudger Smith
12th October 2005, 21:28
Regarding “friendly” fire, two that automatically spring to mind, the first is the VC awarded to Flight Sergeant Arthur Aaron, VC, DFM of No.218 (Gold Coast) Squadron. He was mortally wounded when the rear gunner of another Short Stirling opened fire on his aircraft while attacking Turin on 12/13th August 1943.

Another example again involved a 218 Squadron aircraft. On the night of 1/2nd January 1945, a damaged Avro Lancaster was returning from a raid on Vohwinkel, Germany when hit by US flak near Namur, Belgium. There was only one survivor.

Two examples, both tragic.

SMF144
14th October 2005, 20:47
Brian,

I just came across this incident that occurred on August 26, 1943. Nos. 403 and 421 Squadrons RCAF were taking part in Operation STARKEY, NO.5, Part I when the following was observed.



F/O J.F. LAMBERT and F/O H.J. DOWDING of 403 had excellent bursts at extremely close range, but cloud obstructed accurate view of results. 10 minutes later, 421 in the CAEN area, dived on an ME.109 and a Fw.190, which were flying in line astern. The Fw.190 obviously confused, opened fire, the Me.109 diving steeply in flames right into the ground. This E/A is claimed destroyed by 421. WING landed at 1940 hrs.

Incidently, I have supplied Hugh Haliday with several examples in which he has passed on to you several months back.

All the best,

Stephen

Jon
14th October 2005, 21:11
I once was friends with an old Airgunner in Gloucester, England.
He was shot down only the once in the war, in a Wellington at night onthe way home from a raid. They had gone off course , flew over a Royal Navy ship that fired four shots at them.....Three hit ! and Mr Bircher had no choice but to leave his Wellington at 10,000 feet.
He always said it was the best shooting of the war ???

Jon
14th October 2005, 21:19
I cant remember the details but i am sure another member will !
A USAF Mosquito with a high ranking officer on board flew in a raid to observe the bombing over Europe.
I think as the formation was attacked by Luftwaffe fighters they flew into the formation for protection and....in a Twin engined aircraft often not seen by US gunners was shot down within seconds. I think the US officer and his pilot survived.

mhuxt
14th October 2005, 23:34
4 April 1945, 25 Group. April 4: Wesendorf airfield - The airfield was bombed with good results.

Colonel Troy Crawford, 446th CO, was flying in an RAF Mosquito as an observer. While trying to join with the group, 2 ME 262 fighter jets flew along side Colonel Crawford's plane. The RAF Mosquito, like a German ME 262, was a twin engine aircraft and, from a distance, they look a bit alike. When the crews saw what they thought were 3 ME 262's coming at them, they opened fire and did their job well, knocking the Mosquito out of the air. Colonel Crawford and his pilot parachuted to the ground and were taken prisoner. In just a week and a half, their POW camp would be liberated.

From:

http://www.446bg.com/index.html

MACR 13948

Cheers,

Mark

Brian
15th October 2005, 16:54
Hi guys

Thanks for the latest contributions, I really am grateful and will duly acknowledge all contributors in my forthcoming book by way of thanks. As I am still having problems responding, I reply to all herewith :

JUHA - yes thanks, I have picked up on past discussions but may well come back to you.

SMUDGER - I had overlooked Aaron's VC incident. Thanks for reminding me.

STEPHEN - similarly, I did not have record of the 421 Sqn incident. Thanks for this and also info provided via Hugh.

MARK & JON - I think the incidents are one and the same, in which case I do have details, although I understand the 357thFG shot two Mosquitos. Still investigating the second.

JON - I will research Mr Bircher's bale out to see if I can establish date and unit, unless you already know?

LAURENT - what can I say? Thanks a million. I have some recorded but certainly not all. I wasn't aware of the 17/5/40 Blenheim losses to French fighters. I've had a look at 82 Squadron's ORB and note 11 Blenheims failed to return from that mission. I wonder which three were shot down by the French fighters? Do you know? I would dearly like any additional details related to ALL the incidents you record, including names of crews/pilots responsible etc. May be you would care to write to me with details at:

31 Raynham Road, Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk IP32 6EA.

BOB COLLIS - we must be practically neighbours! Perhaps you would care to phone (01284-760271), and perhaps we could meet for a chat. I, too, have long maintained an interest in East Anglian airwar incidents.

Gentlemen! I thank you all for your help - please keep it coming!

Brian

Laurent Rizzotti
15th October 2005, 18:39
Hi Brian,

I would like better to send you an e-mail. Send one to my own adress: october44 _at_ gmail.com.

As for the 82 Sqn losses, the book is listing the 3 crews, so yes the aircraft are identified, as least in the author's theory. IIRC he says that 3 of the 4 Blenheim having survived German fire were shot down, so maybe the report of the remaining crew may be useful to describe a fighter attack on the return leg.

Six Nifty .50s
15th October 2005, 19:20
4 April 1945, 25 Group. April 4: Wesendorf airfield - The airfield was bombed with good results.

Colonel Troy Crawford, 446th CO, was flying in an RAF Mosquito as an observer. While trying to join with the group, 2 ME 262 fighter jets flew along side Colonel Crawford's plane. The RAF Mosquito, like a German ME 262, was a twin engine aircraft and, from a distance, they look a bit alike. When the crews saw what they thought were 3 ME 262's coming at them, they opened fire and did their job well, knocking the Mosquito out of the air. Colonel Crawford and his pilot parachuted to the ground and were taken prisoner. In just a week and a half, their POW camp would be liberated.

From:

http://www.446bg.com/index.html

MACR 13948

Cheers,

Mark


The plane was a USAAF Mosquito that belonged to the 25th Bomb Group. This unit lost at least four Mosquitoes shot down in error during the war. I could provide the dates, serial numbers and other details if Brian doesn't have them.

Franek Grabowski
15th October 2005, 19:31
Brian
Have you got my e-mail?

Brian
16th October 2005, 11:35
Hi Mark

Please - I have only note of the one loss so the othres would be very much appreciated. Thanks.

Hi Franek,

No, I haven't been able to open my e-mails for a week or so - hopefully the problem will be rectified tomorrow (Monday). I will reply asap. Thanks in advance!

Brian

Brian
16th October 2005, 23:20
Hi guys

I am extremely grateful for the wonderful response to my many queries. Here are some more that have been bugging me for a considerable time. Hopefully someone out there may be able to help - please!

19/5/40: Lysander P1720 shot down by Spitfire (who was the Spitfire pilot?) St Quentin area

21/5/40: Blenheim L9266 shot down by HURRICANE (who?) crashed nr Arras early pm.

27/5/40: Lysander P1685 shot down by Hurricane (who?) near Calais, crash-landed Hawkinge

17/7/40: Lysander L6870 from Army School of Co-operation shot down by Hurricane (who?) near Exeter 1600 hours

24/7/40: Two Skuas 808 Squadron shot down by Spitfires from 610 Squadron. Serial numbers of Skuas? Both force-landed at Worthy Down.

4/9/40: Was P/O Janusz Macinski of 111 Sqn the pilot murdered by civilians in London in the belief that he was German?

24-25/9/40: DH90 X9337 from RAF Acklington attacked by RAF night fighter (who?) 2050 hours

13-14/11/40: Two Hampdens - X2995 of 44 Sqn and P4338 of 61 Sqn - shot down by Spitfires (who were the pilots responsible?) X2995 shortly after take-off from RAF Waddington; P4338 force-landed near RAF Leaconsfield.

Any help will be most appreciated. I have similar queries for 1941-1944!!

Cheers and have a nice one

Brian

Franek Grabowski
16th October 2005, 23:37
Brian
I have to crawl through my database but I am afraid most of the incidents are just hopeless. If recognised by authorities, chances that they are mentioned are just minimal.
Perhaps adding place and time will help to narrow down possible candidates.

4/9/40: Was P/O Janusz Macinski of 111 Sqn the pilot murdered by civilians in London in the belief that he was German?

According to my data, he baled out over the Channel off Folkestone and reputedly was straffed in sea by the Germans.

Brian
17th October 2005, 11:24
Hi Franek

I have added more information to my above listing - hope this helps. Do you know the identity of the Polish pilot allegedly murdered by civilians?

Franek Grabowski
17th October 2005, 19:24
Laurent21 Dec 1939: Potez 637 GR II/33 shot down by 2 Hurricanes over Meuse. 2 KIA, 1 WIAI have this on 18 Dec. Lt. Sagan, Lt. Castellana, Adj. Pernot downed near Souilly by F/L Reginald Eric Lovett of 73 Sqn.18 May 1940: Blenheim 235 Sqn RAF shot down by GC II/8 off Ostende. 3 KIA (shot down by Spitfire/Hurricanes according to RAF)Do you mean L9395?4 Jun 1940: L-N.411 of AB4 shot down by a Polish pilot of Romorantin defence patrol. Pilot wounded.The pilot was ppor. pil. Jan Daszewski flying MS.406C-1. French pilot was second-maitre Rochon, he passed away in 1997.Another incident involving Polish airmen occured on the same day.adj.chef Herve, plut. pil. Henryk Kowalski and plut. pil. Stanisław Tomicki flying MB.152C-1s of Chateaudun chimney flight bounced a LeO 450, reputedly with no human losses.Brian17/7/40: Lysander L6870 from Army School of Co-operation shot down by Hurricane (who?) near Exeter 1600 hoursThere was a claim for Ju 88 by 145 Sqn at the time, perhaps CR or ORB should be checked for any clue?24/7/40: Two Skuas 808 Squadron shot down by Spitfires from 610 Squadron. Serial numbers of Skuas? Both force-landed at Worthy Down.A question to Ray Sturtivant. I have 54 Sqn possibly involved.13-14/11/40: Two Hampdens - X2995 of 44 Sqn and P4338 of 61 Sqn - shot down by Spitfires (who were the pilots responsible?) X2995 shortly after take-off from RAF Waddington; P4338 force-landed near RAF Leaconsfield.I suppose you mean Leconfield. I know 303 Sqn was based there at the time, perhaps other units as well. I am not awared of involvement of the former, however.I recall a story by Tom Neill concerning Hampden icident more less at the time but I was unable to verify it.Do you know the identity of the Polish pilot allegedly murdered by civilians?No, I am awared of no such incident.

Laurent Rizzotti
17th October 2005, 22:34
Some more cases in October 1944

22/9/44:
A flight of P-38s dropped four napalm bombs within the 30th US division's lines, destroying an ammunition dump and six vehicles and killing two men and wounding four during an abortive attack on the West Wall on 22 September.

2/10/44:
A US Thunderbolt pilot claimed a 'Mosquito in German markings' and actually destroyed a 140 Squadron photo-recce aircraft.

Between 3 and 4/10/44:
Typhoons attacked 43rd British Division S of Arnhem.

Between 9 and 12/10/44:
As part of the expansion to meet the needs of war, an independent paratroop company was established. It consisted of 150 Assyrians and 50 Kurds with a small British element. In 1944 they were deployed to Italy in response to a request from the commander Adriatic Forces for "paratroops trained in mountain warfare". The Adriatic forces had the task of not only helping the partisans in their fight against the Germans but of sealing off the ports the Germans would use when withdrawing troops from the Docecanese and other parts of the Aegean. One such port was Sarande on the westernmost tip of Albania. To seize the port a commando (about 250 strong) had landed on the outskirts but could not advance further because of the enemy resistance from Mount Sarande overlooking the port, hence the call for reinforcements.
Just before dawn, the levies were landed by the Royal Navy at a spot about five kilometres south of the port. At first light the German commander saw the landing but decided, as a good commander should, that his men could have breakfast first and be ready to fight the enemy on full stomachs. Little did he know that the Assyrians and Kurds were hardy men whose abode was the mountains of Iraq. One of their pastimes was to race up and down these mountains and the Mount Sarande climb, about half the average height of their home mountains, presented little difficulty. Setting off at a jog they outstripped their British officers and caught the German garrison who were just finishing breakfast. After a brisk firefight, the Germans surrendered and the Levies settled down to their breakfast. Unfortunatley, the Germans were not the only people taken by suprise. The Royal Navy and the RAF had not realized that the mountain was in friendly hands and attacked with naval gunfire and rockets. RAB Khamshi Schlemon Bukko was dispatched with a patrol to contact the Commando and get them to send a message to HQ that the objective had been captured and would they please ask the Navy and the RAF to cease firing. Seeing troops coming from the direction of the enemy, the commandos opened fire. Bukko was hit but had enough strength left to call out "Stop shooting. We are British". His cry, in a Syriac accent, was greated with derision and another burst of fire. "British are you? Not b...y likely". Eventually the commandos saw their error and ceased firing. Henceforth the Paratroop Company sardonically reffered to themselves as experts in combined operations, having been shot up by the Navy, Army and RAF in a single operation.

11/10/44:
At 1040 the CP of the 1st Battalion, 351st US Regiment was bombed and strafed by friendly planes. Twenty-eight casualties were inflicted (Italian frontline).

13/10/44:
P-40N A29-688 of 80 Sqn RAAF shot down by rocket fire [friendly?] into Waroe Bay, New Guinea with F/O Peter Parkinson was KIA.

14/10/44:
One 401st BG B-17 took "friendly fire" from a gunner on a B-17 from another Group who was testing his guns, taking several 50 calibre bullet holes in the fusilage.

18/10/44:
In Italy, 1st Bn, 168th US Infantry: "Some consternation followed when friendly aircraft bombed and strafed the Battalion area at 1415 hours. At least three planes dove to strafe the road from the Battalion command post at Hill 525 (916293) to M. della Formiche. Several bombs were dropped before ground troops could signal with yellow smoke grenades provided for that purpose. As soon as the smoke became noticeable, the planes ceased their fire and began to circle the area. Fortunately no casualties were suffered by the Battalion from this mistake. "

19/10/44:
Junkers Ju 88 A-4/Trop WNr: 140556 of 1.(F)/124 Code: G2+BH Wreckplace: Ivalo Date: 19th October 1944
The Plane was shot down by own anti-aircraft gun. They (Flakcrew) assumed that the plane was an enemyplane and was on mission parachuting partisans. The plane got several hits and started to flame. Pilot ordered all to bale out. Oblt. Werner Horst BO baled out and survived, but wounded badly. Fw. Oswald Heider BF baled out and survived Fw. Ernst Beck BM baled out but did not survived Stfw. Willi Welz FF, MIA, probably did not get out of the plane. There was Jumo 211B engine, wheel and lots of aluminium pieces on the ground in 1990. Engine and wheel has disappeared in 1995 In Year 2001 spinner has raised from a pond.
Source:
http://www.koti.phnet.fi/junkers/JU88LEKOLAE.html

21/10/44:
In Italy, 1st Bn, 133rd US Infantry: "Early on the morning of 21 October a plan was formulated to attack Zena Castle following the firing of white phosphorus by our Cannon Company, the 151st Field Artillery Battalion, and our attached platoon of Company A, 84th Chemical Mortar Battalion. The assault began at 1015 hours, Company C leading, B in its wake. Company C was very near its objective when friendly aircraft, flying a mission with their target 3000 yards to the front of the castle, dropped bombs in and around the fortress. The bombs inflicted casualties on some of our men. Information given to us later revealed that the target of the planes was to have been marked with white and violet smoke. Presumably several fliers had mistaken the smoke from our white phosphorus for the smoke marking our target."

29/10/44:
Douglas A-20J-10-DO Havoc 43-9912 converted to F-3A. Crashed Oct 29, 1944 (155th PRS) during attempted emergency landing at St. Dizier/Robinson Airdrome (A-64) in France after receiving friendly fire. 2 crew killed.

31/10/44:
B-17G 43-38431 527BS 379BG 117 8 Crashed due to Friendly Fire 5 Goodier, Charles W ENG Knodishall

Laurent Rizzotti
20th October 2005, 15:29
Some more cases in October 1944:

2 October 1944
As a result of a "gross error--due to poor navigation, poor headwork and misidentification of target" one group of medium bombers of the 9th Bombardment Division hit the Belgian town of Genck, twenty-eight miles west of the assigned target, on the morning of 2 October 1944, killing thirty-four civilians and wounding forty-five.

4 October 1944
04 OCT 44 A/C: PV-1 Location: AGADIR Strike: NO BUNO: 34796 Cause: AGADIR BOMB & GUNNERY; SHOT OWN TAIL Contributed by Terry pb4y-2@sbcglobal.net [18FEB99]

24 October 1944
Yugoslav Partisan armed ship NB 13 Partizan 40mm, two 20mm, machine-guns Sunk in error 24 Oct 1944 in Olib (Olib I.) by Allied aircrafts. 80t

Brian
20th October 2005, 23:41
Hi Nifty

I have been experiencing problems with me e-mail so am not sure if I responded to you or not. Anyway, I would very much appreciate details of the USAAF Mosquito losses to friendly fire that you mention. Many thanks,
Brian

Brian
20th October 2005, 23:43
Hi Laurent

I trust you have received my PM (as suggested). Thanks immensely for all the friendly fire incidents you have posted - please keep them coming!

Brian

Laurent Rizzotti
21st October 2005, 00:42
Yes, Brian, I will mail you details. Until now I have only scanned my existing files (first for the word "friendly", then for "error" the next time), but sending more details will require writing and translating from French sources. Maybe this week-end, or the next one.

Regards

Laurent

Brian
21st October 2005, 13:20
Hi guys - I hope I am not pushing my luck or monopolising the forum, but I have some more friendly fire queries:

10 May 1941: Sqn Ldr Meagher of 41 Squadron claimed a twin-engined aircraft he believed was a Ju88 shot down off Whitby at 0015, but then thought it may have been a Blenheim. I can't find any Blenheim or Ju88 losses that fit the bill. Any ideas?

6-7 August 1941: Apparently Beaufighter R2157 shot down by another Beaufighter. Any info on either?

23 April 1942: Two Polish Spitfire pilots attacked a RAF clandestine He115 in error. Who were they?

15 September 1942: During Operation PQ18 convoy to Russia, three Sea Hurricanes from HMS Avenger were shot down by their own ships' gunfire. All three pilots baled out and were rescued but who were they? One was a Lieutenant as I have a photo of him being pulled aboard the rescue vessel. Any ideas?

9 August 1943: B-26 41-31634 of 386thBG shot down by a Spitfire. What was the fate of the crew? Who were they? And who was the Spitfire pilot?

I have many more queries but will save these for next time!! Many thanks in advance to anyone who cares to help.

Cheers
Brian

Franek Grabowski
21st October 2005, 15:07
Brian

10 May 1941: Sqn Ldr Meagher of 41 Squadron claimed a twin-engined aircraft he believed was a Ju88 shot down off Whitby at 0015, but then thought it may have been a Blenheim. I can't find any Blenheim or Ju88 losses that fit the bill. Any ideas?

A He 111 perhaps? One of III/KG1 was lost more less at the time.

6-7 August 1941: Apparently Beaufighter R2157 shot down by another Beaufighter. Any info on either?

I have it lost on 5/6 on a defensive patrol over North Sea with 25 Sqn. Crew: F/L TH Worth & Sgt FP Nekludow both killed.

23 April 1942: Two Polish Spitfire pilots attacked a RAF clandestine He115 in error. Who were they?

That should be identifyable, given the place (off IoW?).


9 August 1943: B-26 41-31634 of 386thBG shot down by a Spitfire. What was the fate of the crew? Who were they? And who was the Spitfire pilot?

Someone had a bad day. Any more details?

Brian
21st October 2005, 20:29
Here's another that has been bugging me. On 22/11/44, US P-51s shot down an RAF Lysander from 148 Squadron near Venice, presumably having mistaken it for a Hs126. The RAF pilot was killed, as were his passengers, variously described as two British decorated SOE officers/or/ four Italian agents (according to AHB). Has anyone the facts? Who was the errant US pilot?

Cheers
Brian

Brian
21st October 2005, 21:47
Has anyone the story behind the USN PB4Y crash at Eniwetok on 9 August 1944 which destroyed dozens of parked aircraft? Not quite friendly fire but the crash certainly wrote off a substantial part of the USN air force in that area!

Brian

Laurent Rizzotti
21st October 2005, 22:58
Has anyone the story behind the USN PB4Y crash at Eniwetok on 9 August 1944 which destroyed dozens of parked aircraft? Not quite friendly fire but the crash certainly wrote off a substantial part of the USN air force in that area!

Brian

MISHAPs: 09 AUG 44 PB4Y-1 http://www.vpnavy.org/misc_05/pb4y1.gif LOCATION: (Eniwetok) STRIKE: Yes BUNO: 38766 CAUSE: Reconnaissance flight. Pilot aborted take-off due to darkness, load and rolling runway and cut throttles. Pilot thought he was still on the runway mat, but was actually airborne. With a thirty degree cross-wind plane drifted to left and into and crashed into parked carrier planes adjacent to the runway. Plane hit first row of parked airplanes, caring away wing tips off the folded wings, and canopies and crashing into parking area fifty-yards past end of runway. The plane burned, with fire spreading to other parked aircraft, low order detonation of 9 x 500lbs bombs was instrumental in extending sphere of damage to include the loss or damage of 106 aircraft. Crew: Pilot Lt Romone C. Anderson A-V(N) USNR/Killed, Ens T. M. Pettit A-V(N) USNR/Killed, Ens O. B. Tully A-V(N) USNR/(died of injuries Aug 15th, 1944), AMM1c L. Johnson USN/Seriously inj, Sea1c H. A. Heper USNR/Killed, ARM1c J. W. Chalmers USNR/Killed, ARM3c A. F. Burkhartemeyer USNR/Seriously inj, AOM2c J. D. Rothwell USNR/Killed, Sea1c A. A. Van Winkle USNR/Killed, Sea1c E. Petri USNR/Killed, and AOM3c G. A. Ehinger USNR/Killed. Contributed by Terry pb4y-2@sbcglobal.net (pb4y-2@sbcglobal.net) [10FEB2002]
Source: http://www.vpnavy.org/vp116_mishap_1940.html

(By the way, http://www.vpnavy.org/mishap_vp.html is THE page to bookmark for any VP and VPB loss in WWII or later)

Well, 106 aircraft hit is amazing :shock:

Laurent Rizzotti
22nd October 2005, 14:23
Date is 23 September 1944

"Another accident at Millville is much different from the others. On September 23rd, 2LT Andrew J. Easterwood was killed in a crash in the Atlantic Ocean. Easterwood was the number three man of a flight of five aircraft on an aerial gunnery mission. On his fifth or sixth pass at the target, his aircraft apparently hit the target cable and began a slow roll to the right. The ship continued forward, rolled on its back and started a spiral to the right. The aircraft crashed into the ocean and was never recovered. Easterwood's aircraft crashed as the result of hitting the ¼ inch cable and not the stabilizing bar.

2LT Asa W. Shuler, one of Easterwood's closest friends, thought otherwise. Shuler had been in pilot training with Easterwood and reported to Millville at the same time. When attending his memorial service in Alabama, Shuler mentioned to a family member that he thought that Easterwood had been shot down. This would have been impossible based on the information in the accident report. All of the airplanes in the flight had fired all of their ammunition, but that same report fails to address possible defects in the airplane and health issues. We can only speculate about the cause of this unusual accident, as Shuler was killed in action in France."

http://p47millville.org/history_accidents.html

Brian
22nd October 2005, 17:57
Hi guys

Here's something for the weekend!!

15-16/8/43 Mosquito shot down Wellington. Who was the errant pilot?

22/10/43 Mosquito shot down FIU Mosquito. Ditto

21/12/43 Two Typhoons 609 Sqn and Spitfire 501 Sqn shot down by P-47s.
Who were the US pilots?

28/3/44 Mosquito 107 Sqn shot down by P-51. Was this Lt CF Anderson 335 thFG?

23/4/44 Albemarle V1610 shot down by RAF nightfighter?

11/6/44 Mosquto 333 Sqn shot down by Allied fighters Orkneys?

28/6/44 Mosquito 192 Sqn damaged by Mosquito.

Hope someone can help with the latest. Sincere thanks. I owe you a drink!!

Brian

Laurent Rizzotti
22nd October 2005, 19:59
333 Sqn loss was discussed on the RAF forums last week IIRC. Names of crew and faulty pilots were given (IIRC again).

Brian
22nd October 2005, 20:56
Hi Laurent

Being a rather ignorant person I do not understand what you mean! Where can I find the discussion on the 333 Sqn loss? What RAF forums? And was does IIRC mean? Apologies for being dumb!

Brian

John Beaman
22nd October 2005, 21:27
IIRC = If I Recall Correctly

Stéphane Lehuédé
22nd October 2005, 22:13
23 April 1942: Two Polish Spitfire pilots attacked a RAF clandestine He115 in error. Who were they?

Hi, according an article published in Aéro Journal n° 15, He 115 BV184 was attacked and damaged by Spitfire from N° 303 Sqn.

Regards

Stéphane

Andy Fletcher
23rd October 2005, 22:20
Where can I find the discussion on the 333 Sqn loss


Hi Brian,

Here is the link.

http://www.rafcommands.com/dcforum/DCForumID6/7514.html

Ross McNeill's site has some great data, many very knowledgable individuals post there.

Regards

Andy Fletcher

Brian
24th October 2005, 10:42
Once again my sincere thanks, guys.

Laurent - I have now found the RAF Forum and have extracted details of the 333 Squadron Mosquito - thanks, and also to you John and Andy. I'm new to websites and am only just finding my way around - as is pretty obvious!! Thanks also Stephane for the 303/He115 connection - I will dig further during my next visit to Kew.

What a great site and with so many generous and knowledgeable contributors. Keep 'em coming!

Cheers
Brian

Laurent Rizzotti
24th October 2005, 22:09
A new one: on 13 May 1944 a P-40 bombed a Spitfire on the ground in Italy. Some more details at http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=368

Also on this forum, a post on friendly fire in the Pacific by "Six Nifty .50s":
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=252

Brian
26th October 2005, 19:33
Hi guys

Just a reminder to Six Nifty .50s - were implied that you would let me have details of the USAAF Mosquitos (25thBG) that fell to friendly fire. Cheers.

Chris - I thought that you might be able to help with the NF friendly fire incidents mentioned above. I do hope so. Sorry I couldn't meet up with you this week.

Brian

Laurent Rizzotti
27th October 2005, 13:38
A new one on 28 October 1944: a good story of a 626 Sqn RAF hit by RAF bombs over Cologne and surviving

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/ww2/A5090311

Brian
28th October 2005, 20:33
Hi guys,

Not much success with my previous list of friendly fire incidents, but I will persevere and here is my penultimate list of queries:

9/7/44 Lt Jack B. Miller 78thFG shot down by Spitfire
9/7/44 Spitfire PL137 shot down by P-47 353rdFG
14/7/44 Mitchell 226 Sqn shot down Mosquito
15/8/44 Two Spits 602 Sqn (MJ398 and MK244) shot down by P-51s
26/8/44 Spit 602 Sqn (PL264) shot down by P-47
18/9/44 Lt Robert O. Peters 335thFG shot down by P-51
19/9/44 P-51 357thFG shot down by Spitfire
26/9/44 Mustang 168 Sqn (AM101) shot down by P-47
7/10/44 Lt Raoul Rebiere 328 Sqn shot down P-51

I hope someone out there might have some of the answers. Many thanks.

Brian

Franek Grabowski
28th October 2005, 20:59
18/9/44 Lt Robert O. Peters 335thFG shot down by P-51

This event was quite well researched and I may get you in touch with MIA Project guys. Unfortunatelly, name of the pilot is not known but he visited family of Peters and told the story, expressing his most deep and sincere sorrow and sympathies.
Cheers

Boris Ciglic
30th October 2005, 21:34
Two 325 birds from othervise useless Osprey "P 47 aces of the 9th and 15th AF":

11.3.44. Lt Jimmy Jones attacked Lt Hudson who turned and shot him down

12.4.44. Lt Harry Parker (in 42-75959) shot down by P 38

Cheers,
Boris

Brian
30th October 2005, 22:30
Great stuff, Boris - it is said that one good turn deserves another! It works!!

Thanks again

Brian

Troy White
31st October 2005, 01:50
There were so many incidents, I am sure you are going to have fun compiling them all. Here are a few more for you:

10 Sept 43 Lt. Pryblo 307th FS 31st FG-- Own Flak
22 May 44 Nick "Cowboy" Megura 334th FS-- 4th FG Shot down by P-38
6 June 44 Uffz. Winter 6./JG 26-- Own Flak
25 December Lt. Bouchier-- Own Flak
25 December Capt. Don Emmerson 336 FS 4th FG-- Own Flak
1 Jan 45 An RAF Typhoon or Tempest was shot down and the pilot KIA while in the landing pattern by a pilot from the 328th FS 352nd FG at Y-29 in Belgium.
1 Jan 45 out of about 300 aircraft lost by the Luftwaffe during Operation Bodenplatte about 100 were shot down by their own flak.

I also recall an incident where USAAF P-38s shot down a few Soviet fighters I believe in the Balkans near the end of the war.

And of course there was St. Lo...

That is just what I found in my notes and the very few books in my library.

I look forward to seeing how you present all of this stuff. I am sure some people will think this is a touchy subject but there are so many ways to get killed during a war. I used to live in Florida and during WWII there was an average of 1.25 military planes a day that crashed between Pearl Harbour and V-J Day and nobody was was shooting at them.

Cheers--

Troy

George Hopp
31st October 2005, 03:13
In the August 1944 issue of "Recognition Journal" the following was mentioned. Perhaps someone knows about the a/c and boats involved: "Some months ago in the Pacific, a B-25 bomber on patrol spotted two torpedo boats below him. Not recognizing them as U.S. Navy PT's he came down on them, strafing with his eight .50-caliber machine guns. They, in turn, opened up on him. While the first PT was still sinking, a patrolling Navy fighter happened along, swung in on the bomber and shot it down. The bomber pilot never lived to make explanations, nor did all the PT men."

No. 1 Sqdn (RCAF) tallied its first victories on 24 Aug 40 by shooting down one Ju 88 and claiming another Ju 88 as a probable. Unfortunately, these a/c were Blenheim IFs of No. 235 (Fighter) Sqdn of the RAF.

Troy White
1st November 2005, 05:17
Last night while I was looking for something completely different I stumbled upon the following “friendly” fire information. Funny how that works.

On 18 March 1945 the 352nd FG, 353rd FG, 357th FG & 359th FG all had contact with Soviet fighters in the Berlin area.

A P-51 from the 353rd and one from the 352nd crash landed behind Soviet lines as a result of engagements with the Soviets.

Several flights of 352nd FG mixed it up with Yak-9s but combat was broken off when proper recognition was established. However, Lt. Albert Peterson of the 487th FS got into a turning contest with four Yaks and got himself shot down. Peterson eventually made his way back to his base on 1 May 1945. I couldn’t find anything more on the 353rd FG or the 357th FG.

But the big story was what happened with the 359th FG over the airfields at Zackerick and Joachimsthal. Mustangs of the 368th FS and 369th FS shot down a total of nine and damaged one of the Russians in a good sized fracas with no losses. They also destroyed two more on the ground as they were taxiing to take off. The 359th initially mistook the La-5s for Fw 190s and the Yak-9s for Bf 109s. The Americans broke off combat when they figured out their mistake but in some cases the Soviets wanted to keep fighting so the Americans obliged and shot them down. The stats show that it was not much of a contest.

High scorers that day were Capt. Ralph Cox who shot down three La-5s and Maj. Niven Cranfill who flamed two Yak-9s. Both became aces with those victories.

Here are confirmed victories for the 359th FG on 18 March 1945:

Cranfill, 368th FS: 2 Yak-9s
Cox 368th FS: 3 La-5s
Burtner, 368th FS: 1 Yak-9
Burtner, 368th FS: 2 Yak-9s (ground)
McCormack, 368th FS: 1 Yak-9
Gaines, 368th FS: 1 Yak-9
McIntosh, 368th FS: 1 Yak-9
Berndt, 368th FS: 1 Yak-9 (damaged)

After the incident Lt. McIntosh was court marshaled and sent back to the USA because his was the only gun camera film evidence of the incident that survived.

On the Russian side Joseph Stalin had the surviving Russian pilots executed and expected the USA to do the same with the 359th pilots which of course never happened.
Cheers--

Troy

Troy White
1st November 2005, 05:21
Correction to my previous posting:

All of the 359th FG pilots were from the 369th FS except for Capt. Cranfill who was from the 368th FS.

Troy

Brian
1st November 2005, 07:43
Many thanks Troy and George - I have to admit that I have most of this information but you have added a little more, Troy. Keep searching!

I haven't established a date for the incident you recount, George, but have made a note.

Great stuff

Brian

Six Nifty .50s
1st November 2005, 19:35
Hi guys

Just a reminder to Six Nifty .50s - were implied that you would let me have details of the USAAF Mosquitos (25thBG) that fell to friendly fire. Cheers.


August 12th, 1944
USAAF Mosquito NS533. Misidentified and shot down by a USAAF P-51 of the 357th Fighter Group at about 1145 hours. The Mustang pilot and his wingman climbed to engage from 23,000 feet and the Mosquito spun in from 29,000 feet. In the after action reports, both P-51 pilots implied that the twin-engined aircraft was silhouetted against the sun -- the attacking pilot wrote that he did not see any roundels or invasion stripes on the aircraft and after the bogie turned onto his six o'clock and tried to dive away, he considered it to be hostile. The Mosquito pilot, Lt. Ronald M. Nichols, was killed. The navigator, Lt. Elbert F. Harris, bailed out and evaded capture. Crash site west of Toulouse, France.

March 24th, 1945
USAAF Mosquito NS711. Misidentified and shot down by a USAAF P-47 of the 36th Fighter Group (9th Air Force) at about 1700 hours. The Thunderbolt pilot and his wingman climbed to engage from 17,000 feet. The Mosquito was at 18,500 feet when the pilot, Lt. Carroll B. Stubblefield, banked to present the national markings which were not recognized, probably again due to the lighting conditions. Stubblefield's plane also had a red tail to discourage attack by friendlies, but it's not clear if the ground attack pilots were briefed. The Mosquito had a top cover of eight P-51s of the 479th Fighter Group (8th Air Force) but they were unable to make radio contact with the P-47s until after the Mosquito was destroyed. The pilot was killed but the navigator, Lt. James B. Richmond, bailed out safely and was captured. Crash site near Brilon, Germany.

April 4th, 1945
USAAF Mosquito NS635. Misidentified and shot down by a USAAF B-24 of the 446th Bomb Group at about 1030 hours. The group commander, Lt. Col. Troy W. Crawford, was aboard the Mosquito and took full responsibility for the mistake. The Liberators had been under attack by German jets and the bomber crews were previously ordered to open fire on any aircraft that came within a specified range of their guns. The escort fighter units were informed of this but the Mosquito pilot, Lt. Theodore B. Smith, was not properly briefed. He flew too close while Crawford was taking pictures of the B-24s and one of the gunners blasted the Mosquito out of the sky. The pilot and passenger bailed out safely and became POWs for the duration. Crash site between Parchim and Wesendorf, Germany.

April 9th, 1945
USAAF Mosquito NS792. Misidentified and shot down by a FFAF P-51 at about 1745 hours. The Mosquito was at 20,000 feet when attacked; following an explosion the pilot, Lt. John A. Pruis, slumped forward in his seat. The navigator, Lt. Claude C. Moore, was badly burned and unable to extricate the pilot, but he managed to bail out. As the Mustangs circled during his parachute descent, Lt. Moore noticed they carried the roundels of the Free French air forces. After landing Moore was evacuated by the U.S Army. Crash site near Eberbach, Germany. (Note there is a discrepancy with the serial number. One source says the downed Mosquito was NS783, but another source says a different crew was flying that plane on the same mission).

Franek Grabowski
2nd November 2005, 08:10
Troy
I am awared of no Soviet pilot being executed. It seems it was a propaganda piece aimed at Americans.

Brian
I have some stuff for US-Soviet combats but not sure if they should be called a friendly fire.
I have got German and Soviet incidents ready (without Polish Campaign), I will try to send you an email today.
I have found a note that on 26 September 1940 Kellet (303) was bounced by Spitfires - further digging necessary.

Brian
2nd November 2005, 08:11
Many thanks Six Nifty .50s - great stuff. Another name for the Acknowledgements List!! I am sincerely grateful

Best
Brian

Hi Six Nifty .50s - and other experts

A couple of queries re USAAF Mosquitos that you mention. In Merle Olmsted's excellent 'The Yoxford Boys' (357thFG) history, he confirms (on page 359) that the 357thFG shot down two Mosquitos, one on 12 August 1944 as indicated, but the other is not dated, and neither is mentioned in the narrative. Any ideas? Perhaps the second one was a RAF machine?

Secondly, regarding the shooting down of NS792 on 9 April 1945. I could be wrong, but I don't think any Free French unit was flying the P-51 at that date, and I haven't a FF Spitfire claim for a twin on that date. Maybe the culprit was a RAF Mustang or a US P-51. Again, any ideas?

While on the subject of FF pilots, Lt Raoul Rebiere of 328 Squadron (formerly GCI/7) flying a Spitfire shot down a US P-51 on 7 October 1944. Any ideas?

Six Nifty .50s
3rd November 2005, 04:17
Many thanks Six Nifty .50s - great stuff. Another name for the Acknowledgements List!! I am sincerely grateful

You're welcome, but George R. Sesler and Terry A. Fairfield deserve the credit because they consulted the original documents. I summarized their findings from An Accounting of the 25th Bomb Group (RCN, SP) and The 479th Fighter Group in World War II. The former is out of print but the latter, a rather hefty volume, is available from Schiffer Books.


A couple of queries re USAAF Mosquitos that you mention. In Merle Olmsted's excellent 'The Yoxford Boys' (357thFG) history, he confirms (on page 359) that the 357thFG shot down two Mosquitos, one on 12 August 1944 as indicated, but the other is not dated, and neither is mentioned in the narrative. Any ideas? Perhaps the second one was a RAF machine?

Is that Olmsted's latest unit history from Eagle Editions?

regarding the shooting down of NS792 on 9 April 1945. I could be wrong, but I don't think any Free French unit was flying the P-51 at that date, and I haven't a FF Spitfire claim for a twin on that date. Maybe the culprit was a RAF Mustang or a US P-51.

Or a clipped wing RAF Spitfire with a teardrop canopy? Unfortunately Lt. Moore did not describe the paint job on the circling fighters, other than the roundels.

I have a few queries too (CBI theatre) perhaps you could fill in some of the blanks? In February 1945, an RAF trainer from No. 152 Squadron was misidentified as a Ki-43 Oscar and shot down by an RAF Spitfire, evidently piloted by Flying Officer D. W. Rathwell of No. 17 Squadron. The Harvard was carrying a war correspondent named Harry Ashley, who intended to take pictures of a battle developing near the Irrawaddy River. The Harvard pilot made a wheels up forced landing and although injured he posed for a photo by Ashley in front of the crashed aircraft. Would you know the serial numbers and the full name/rank of the Harvard pilot?

According to reminisces in Chaz Bowyer's Beaufighter At War there were several friendly fire incidents in the CBI. One account states that two Beaufighters were shot down into the Akyab swamps by USAAF planes, and another states that an RAF Beaufighter shot down a USAAF B-17 returning to Chittagong from a bombing mission. I don't know the dates, crew names or serials. Do you have other information?

Josh Osborne
3rd November 2005, 12:43
There were so many incidents, I am sure you are going to have fun compiling them all. Here are a few more for you:

10 Sept 43 Lt. Pryblo 307th FS 31st FG-- Own Flak
22 May 44 Nick "Cowboy" Megura 334th FS-- 4th FG Shot down by P-38
6 June 44 Uffz. Winter 6./JG 26-- Own Flak
25 December Lt. Bouchier-- Own Flak
25 December Capt. Don Emmerson 336 FS 4th FG-- Own Flak
1 Jan 45 An RAF Typhoon or Tempest was shot down and the pilot KIA while in the landing pattern by a pilot from the 328th FS 352nd FG at Y-29 in Belgium.
1 Jan 45 out of about 300 aircraft lost by the Luftwaffe during Operation Bodenplatte about 100 were shot down by their own flak.

I also recall an incident where USAAF P-38s shot down a few Soviet fighters I believe in the Balkans near the end of the war.

And of course there was St. Lo...

That is just what I found in my notes and the very few books in my library.

I look forward to seeing how you present all of this stuff. I am sure some people will think this is a touchy subject but there are so many ways to get killed during a war. I used to live in Florida and during WWII there was an average of 1.25 military planes a day that crashed between Pearl Harbour and V-J Day and nobody was was shooting at them.

Cheers--

Troy

From the extremely well researched "Bodenplatte" by John Mahrno and Ron Putz, Luftwaffe losses from friendly fire during the Bodenplatte operation were only ~15% of losses, not the 33% reported in some other sources.

mhuxt
3rd November 2005, 15:39
A couple of queries re USAAF Mosquitos that you mention. In Merle Olmsted's excellent 'The Yoxford Boys' (357thFG) history, he confirms (on page 359) that the 357thFG shot down two Mosquitos, one on 12 August 1944 as indicated, but the other is not dated, and neither is mentioned in the narrative. Any ideas? Perhaps the second one was a RAF machine?

Might this have been NS856 of 107 Squadron, which Air Britain lists as having been shot down south of Dieppe by a P-51 on 28 March 1944?

Brian
3rd November 2005, 16:03
Hi guys

Thanks for the latest - grateful to both Josh and Mhuxt for your input - Mhuxt, I believe Mosquito NS856 fell to a 4thFG P-51, possibly flown by Lt Charles Anderson.

Six Nifty - I haven't fully completed my research for Volume 2, which covers the Far East, so I haven't the detail yet that you require apart from:

1) The Harvard was flown by a Flg Off Jackson.

2) On 20/12/44 a B-29 (not B-17) was shot down in error (at night) by a Beaufighter flown by Sqn Ldr R.B. Morrison of 176 Squadron (one killed, 11 baled out).

3) On 28/5/44 a Beaufighter of 211 Squadron flown by W/Os J.W. Goddard RAAF and E.M. Boom was shot down by P-51 from 530thFS/311rdFG. Both crew killed. Identity of US pilot unknown to me.

4) 16/11/44 two Beaufighters of 211 Squadron were shot down by P-38s from 459thFS flown by 1/Lts Vern L. Flanders and Walter H. Patton. Two crew were killed in one machine, the pilot survived from the second machine but his navigator died of wounds.

I expect you are aware of other notable friendly fire incidents in CBI such as Boyington shooting down a USN Hellcat flown by Lt Richard Moore on 18/9/43; Capt Robert Owens USMC ace shot down by his wingman (identity unknown to me) on 24/1/44; Ace Capt James Swett shot down a RNZAF P-40 on 31/10/43. RAAF Catalina shot up by USMC Wildcat on 26/6/43 (identities of both unknown to me).

Keep 'em coming!

Cheeers
Brian

Franek Grabowski
3rd November 2005, 20:43
Quite interesting stories from PTO were in old Kookaboora book about RAAF markings. There was an account of a RAAF Kitty pilot, who, with the Squadron, were briefed by 49 FG before entering operations. They were shown with a series of guncam movies and a disscussion started. After some comments, US officer said more less: gentlemen, please note that all the aircraft on the movie had white tails. This caused a stunning silence.
Cheers

Brian
4th November 2005, 14:09
For attention of Bob Collis

I did respond to your message - see Post 31. I was waiting for a call from you. Perhaps you would care to buzz me. I look forward to that.

Cheers
Brian

PS: I am unable to post messages apart from using Quick Reply! What am I doing wrong, or not doing?

Six Nifty .50s
5th November 2005, 05:44
Hi guys

Thanks for the latest - grateful to both Josh and Mhuxt for your input - Mhuxt, I believe Mosquito NS856 fell to a 4thFG P-51, possibly flown by Lt Charles Anderson.

Six Nifty - I haven't fully completed my research for Volume 2, which covers the Far East, so I haven't the detail yet that you require apart from:

1) The Harvard was flown by a Flg Off Jackson.

2) On 20/12/44 a B-29 (not B-17) was shot down in error (at night) by a Beaufighter flown by Sqn Ldr R.B. Morrison of 176 Squadron (one killed, 11 baled out).

3) On 28/5/44 a Beaufighter of 211 Squadron flown by W/Os J.W. Goddard RAAF and E.M. Boom was shot down by P-51 from 530thFS/311rdFG. Both crew killed. Identity of US pilot unknown to me.

4) 16/11/44 two Beaufighters of 211 Squadron were shot down by P-38s from 459thFS flown by 1/Lts Vern L. Flanders and Walter H. Patton. Two crew were killed in one machine, the pilot survived from the second machine but his navigator died of wounds.

I expect you are aware of other notable friendly fire incidents in CBI such as Boyington shooting down a USN Hellcat flown by Lt Richard Moore on 18/9/43; Capt Robert Owens USMC ace shot down by his wingman (identity unknown to me) on 24/1/44; Ace Capt James Swett shot down a RNZAF P-40 on 31/10/43. RAAF Catalina shot up by USMC Wildcat on 26/6/43 (identities of both unknown to me).

Keep 'em coming!

Cheeers
Brian


Thanks for the 411. Brian, my database is too large to post here, but here are a few random cases you may not know about...

December 21st, 1939
RAF Hampden L4089. 44 Sqdn. Shot down by RAF Spitfires of 602 Sqdn. off New Berwick. Crew rescued by a fishing boat.

December 21st, 1939
RAF Hampden L4090. 44 Sqdn. Shot down by RAF Spitfires of 602 Sqdn. off New Berwick. One fatality, other crewmen rescued by a fishing boat.

July 4th, 1940
RAF Gladiator N5751. 33 Sqdn. Destroyed over Bug Bug, believed to be shot down by British AA fire. F/O W.B. Price-Owen parachuted safely.

September 29th, 1940
RN Swordfish (serial in question). 813 Sqdn. Crashed into sea after being hit by friendly fire near Mersa Matruh. Crew unharmed. Other details unknown to me.

November 11th, 1940
SAAF Gladiator N5813. 2 Sqdn. Shot down by friendly AA fire and flipped over on landing on island in the Nile. Lt. B. R. Dimmock injured.

June 22nd, 1941
RAF Manchester L7314. 207 Sqdn. Shot down by RAF Beaufighter of 25 Sqdn. over Wollaston. Entire crew KIA. Other details unknown to me.

July 2nd, 1941
RAF Wellington R1516. 311 Sqdn. Shot down by RAF night-fighter over Wiltshire. Entire crew KIA. Other details unknown to me.

February 15th, 1942
RAF Liberator AM918. Shot down in error over the English Channel near Plymouth. Entire crew KIA. Other details unknown to me.

April 4th, 1942
USAAF P-40 41-5551. 49th PG. Shot down by Australian AA fire over Darwin. Lt. Grover Gardner bailed out safely.

April 4th, 1942
USAAF P-40 (serial in question). 49th PG. Seriously damaged by Australian AA fire over Darwin. With the controls shot up the plane skidded off the runway upon landing and crashed into a treeline, killing Lt. Livingstone.

May 2nd, 1942
RAF Spitfire BL666. Damaged in attack by an RAF Beaufighter. Other details unknown to me.

May 5th, 1942
RAF Stirling R9313. 218 Sqdn. Shot down by an RAF aircraft near Petworth, Sussex. Other details unknown to me.

September 15th, 1942
RAF Kittyhawk AK694. 112 Sqdn. Shot down by British AA fire, crashed near Homuth. Sgt. C.O. Young, RNZAF, injured.

October 21st, 1942
RAF Stirling BF390. 7 Sqdn. Shot down by British AA fire off Yarmouth. Other details unknown to me.

December 2nd, 1942
RAF Beaufighter (serial in question). 89 Sqdn. Shot down by British AA fire from Malta. Crew bailed out safely. Other details unknown to me.

December 16th, 1942
RAF Marauder FK367. 14 Sqdn. Shot down by Spitfire off Benghazi. Other details unknown to me.

December 22nd, 1942
RAF Spitfire ER602. Shot down by Allied AA fire. Other details unknown to me.

December 27th, 1942
RAF Hudson FK389. 117 Sqdn. Shot down by USAAF fighters at Thelepte. Other details unknown to me.

March 24th, 1943
RAF Spitfire BR302 was attacked by RAF Typhoons and then collided with Spitfire BS448. The pilot of BR302 made a forced landing at Ibsley. The pilot of BS448 bailed out over Devon. Apparently this occurred during a training exercise and it was not made clear if the Typhoons were supposed to be there. Other details unknown to me.

April 13th, 1943
RAF Hudson FK401. Shot down by RAF Beaufighter off Algiers. Other details unknown to me.

April 23rd, 1943
USAAF P-51, A-36, or F-6 (serial in question). 154th OS. Shot down by Allied AA fire in North Africa. Other details unknown to me.

May 25th, 1943
RAF Typhoon (serial in question). 486 Sqdn. Misidentifed as an Fw 190, damaged by cannon-fire from other Typhoons in the same squadron. F/Lt. A.E. Umbers unmolested.

July 10th, 1943
USAAF A-36A 42-84075. 86th FBG. Shot down by U.S. Navy AA fire over the Mediterranean. Lt. A. R. Fleischmann, KIA.

July 12th, 1943
RAAF Beaufort A9-225. 100 Sqdn. Crew of this aircraft mistakenly opened fire on a USN PB4Y-1 of VD-1, which returned fire and shot down the Beaufort. Other details unknown to me.

14th July 1943
RAF Spitfire X4818. Shot down by student pilot. Instructor killed. Other details unknown to me.

July 28th, 1943
RAF Mosquito DZ600. Shot down by an RAF Mosquito night-fighter near Ipsden. Other details unknown to me.

August 27th, 1943
USAAF P-47 (serial in question). 56th FG. Damaged in attack by RAF Spitfires while returning from a sweep to Lille, France. Other details unknown to me.

September 11th, 1943
RAF Spitfire EF674. Shot down by Allied gunfire. Other details unknown to me.

November 11th, 1943
USN F4U-1 Corsair 17629. VF-17. Slightly damaged by another Corsair off Rabaul. Lt. Commander John T. Blackburn not injured and landed his plane safely. His XO, Lt. Commander Roger R. Hedrick, misidentified Blackburn's plane while chasing a Japanese fighter through clouds and broke off after firing a short burst.

November 29th, 1943
USAAF P-47D 42-8601. 356th FG. Shot down by USAAF B-17 near Aschendorf. Lt. Warren A. Beach bailed out and was taken prisoner.

21st December 1943
RAF Lancaster DS704. 408 Sqdn. Shot down by the tail gunner of another Lancaster near Limburg. Crew bailed out, two men killed. Other details unknown to me.

December 30th, 1943
USAAF P-40s (several from 79th FG) were returning from a ground attack mission in Italy when attacked by RAF Spitfires. Fortunately all of the shots missed.

December 30th, 1943
USAAF P-40 (serial in question). 79th FG. Shot down by British AA fire near Ortona, Italy. Lt. Edwin Joh bailed out safely.

December 30th, 1943
RAF Baltimore FA230. Seriously damaged by friendly fire off Rosetta, Egypt. Other details unknown to me.

April 1st, 1944
RAF Ventura FP633. Believed to be shot down by RAF Beaufighter. Other details unknown to me.

April 20th, 1944
RAF Spitfire EN291. Destroyed following attack by USAAF P-38 in Italy. Other details unknown to me.

April 26th, 1944
RAF Mitchell FR142. Shot down by RAF Mosquito and crashed near Headcorn, U.K. Other details unknown to me.

May 1944
USAAF P-47 (serial in question). 406th FG. Damaged by gunfire from RAF B-25; crew apparently RCAF. Date is a guesstimate. Other details unknown to me.

May 12th, 1944
USAAF P-51 (serial in question). 359th FG. Slightly damaged by gunfire from another Mustang after Lt. Robert L. Thacker flew across the path of Capt. Charles C. Ettlesen, who was strafing parked aircraft near Thamsbruck.

June 6th, 1944
On D-Day, RAF Dakotas from 233 Sqdn. came under AA fire from British ships as they flew over the Normandy invasion beaches, near the mouth of the River Orne. Two damaged Dakotas were forced to turn back before they dropped supplies. Another Dakota ditched in the Channel, and five other planes were reported missing, believed shot down by friendly fire. (I have read conflicting information about this incident, perhaps someone can sort it out).

June 10th, 1944
USAAF P-47 (serial in question). 56th FG. Damaged by USAAF P-38 during a ground attack mission in France. Other details unknown to me.

June 10th, 1944
RAF Spitfire EE685. Shot down by Allied warships off Normandy. Other details unknown to me.

July 6th, 1944
USAAF P-38J 42-68109. 370th FG. Shot down by Allied AA fire near Cherbourg. Lt. Wesley E. Holtdorf , KIA.

July 30th, 1944
USAAF P-51B (serial in question). 31st FG. Shot down by USAAF P-38 near Budapest, Hungary. Maj. Ernest Shipman was taken prisoner.

31st July 1944
USAAF P-51 (serial in question). 31st FG. Pilot was shot down by his wingman during a dogfight with Me 109s over Ploesti. The two were separated in a cloud formation when Lt. Edmund Gubler opened fire on Lt. Dennis Riddle, who bailed out safely. Gubler then landed nearby to pick him up. This had been done successfully by other Mustang pilots, but this plane was unable to take off from soft ground. Both men were taken prisoner.

August 12th, 1944
RAF Liberator EV878. Shot down over English Channel by HMS Onslow. Other details unknown to me.

August 13th, 1944
USAAF P-47D 42-75230. 356th FG. Shot down by British AA fire near Martlesham Heath. Lt. Henry L. Lewis, KIA.

August 14th, 1944
USAAF P-47D 42-8491. 356th FG. Shot down by American AA fire near Laval. Lt. Louis G. Alphonse, KIA.

August 17th, 1944
RAF Spitfire MJ398. 602 Sqdn. Force-landed after attack by Mustangs. Other details unknown to me.

November 11th, 1944
RAF Spitfire (serial in question). Shot down by a USAAF P-51 near Padua, Italy. F/Lt. A. M. Cummings, KIA. Another Spitfire (serial in question) flown by F/Lt. Creed was damaged by gunfire from the same flight of Mustangs.

December 18th, 1944
RAF Spitfire NH720. 130 Sqdn. Damaged by Allied AA fire. Other details unknown to me.

December 23rd, 1944
RAF Spitfire RB169. 350 Sqdn. Damaged by Allied AA fire. Other details unknown to me.

February 3rd, 1945
USAAF P-47s (several from 56th FG). Attacked by RAF Spitfires near Berlin. Fortunately all of the shots missed.

February 4th, 1945
RAAF Beaufighter A8-85. 93 Sqdn. One of several aircaft that attacked a civilian yacht owned by the Rajah of Sarawak (misidentified as a Japanese oil tanker). The Beaufighter was damaged by flying debris from exploding rockets and crash-landed in jungle near Kucing. F/Lt. Sims and F/O Arrant eventually returned to base.

March 4th, 1945
USAAF B-17G 43-37516. Shot down by British AA fire over Essex. Crew bailed out but there were some fatalities. Wreckage came down in mudflats of River Stout. Other details unknown to me.

April 10th, 1945
USAAF A-26 (serial in question). Shot down by USAAF P-51s from the 356th FG. Other details unknown to me.

April 20th, 1945
U.S. Army L-5 liaison aircraft (serial in question) was enroute to Reidfeld when attacked by an RAF fighter which appeared to be a Spitfire. One of the passengers was General George S. Patton, and fortunately the L-5 pilot successfully evaded the threat with low level maneuvering. The RAF pilot, his name unknown to me, made several firing passes and then crashed after failing to pull out of a dive.

April 24th, 1945
RAF Mosquito (serial in question). 409 Sqdn. Shot down by another RAF Mosquito near Rheine. P/O L. E. Fitchett and P/O A. C. Hardy crash-landed near B108 airfield.

Brian
5th November 2005, 07:48
Wow! Thanks indeed Six Nifty. You'll have to let me have your real identity sometime so that I am able to fully acknowledge your asssiatnce in the forthcoming book. I do have the majority of those incidents you have so generously listed, but there are a few new to me. I do really appreciate your time and effort.

Cheers
Brian

mhuxt
5th November 2005, 17:08
Last Mosquito in the above list (April 24 1945) was MM588 according to Air Britain.

Same source says DZ600 was attacked by HK109, which was on either 85 Squadron or 307 Squadron - I don't have squadron service dates.

Fairlop
5th November 2005, 17:29
July 2nd, 1941
RAF Wellington R1516. 311 Sqdn. Shot down by RAF night-fighter over Wiltshire. Entire crew KIA. Other details unknown to me.

Wellington MkIC R1516, KX-U, 311 (Czechoslovak) Sqn,
Sgt Oldrich Helma KIA
Sgt Antonin Plocek KIA
P/O Richard Hapala KIA
Sgt Adolf Dolejs KIA
Sgt Jaroslav Petrucha KIA
Sgt Jaroslav Lancik KIA.
T/o East Wretham at 10.02 pm to Cherbourg. S/d by W/C C. H. Appleton DSO, DFC of No.604 Sqn and crashed at 01.46 am at Lower Park Farm, 3 km SE Mere, Wiltshire.

Regards,
Michal

Six Nifty .50s
5th November 2005, 18:31
Wow! Thanks indeed Six Nifty. You'll have to let me have your real identity sometime so that I am able to fully acknowledge your asssiatnce in the forthcoming book. I do have the majority of those incidents you have so generously listed, but there are a few new to me. I do really appreciate your time and effort.

Cheers
Brian

Just the tip of the iceberg, my friend. Some cases can be found online, but mainly I used unit histories and aircraft histories as sources, with a few from Chorley's bomber command losses. Obviously it's easier to harvest a lot of material quickly by consulting general studies such as Norman Franks' Fighter Command Losses, Paul Kemp's book on naval friendly fire, Charles Schrader's book on U.S. friendly fire, Gauker & Blood's statistical summary on U.S. Navy friendly fire, Air Britain serials, or any of several well researched volumes on the Battle of Britain, etc. But I didn't quote anything from those sources because I assumed that you've read them.

I have a pile of USAAF fighter unit histories (stacked about two feet high) but I haven't had the time to go through the majority. When I'm finished, I'll send you an e-mail regarding relevant cases.

How will you format this book? Are you interested mainly in aircraft related incidents, or is this a general study?

Brian
5th November 2005, 20:29
Hi mhuxt - thanks for the details.

Michal - I had note of the incident but not full identities - thanks.

Six Nifty - great stuff. I have not consulted Schrader's book nor Gauker & Blood summaries (not aware of these). Please elaborate to enable me to purchase same. The mind boggles at what you may find in the US fighter histories! I await with anticipation!

Cheers
Brian

I thought I would post my final (?) list of ETO queries, in the hope that someone out there may have a few answers:

28/10/44: Mustang AM153 shot down by Spitfire

31/10/44: B-17 shot down by British AA - crew list?

23/12/44: Lt Coppoline 366FS shot down P-47

24/12/44: Two Typhoons shot down by P-47s

25/12/44: Spitfire SM303 shot down by P-47

29/12/44: Spitfire PL217 shot down by US fighter

30/12/44: Lt Stovell 56FG shot down by P-47

1/1/45: Typhoon EK497 shot down by P-51 352FG

1/1/45: Beaufighter 415NFS shot down by B-17

Thanks in advance

Brian

The final few for ETO

14/1/45: Two Typhoons (174 and 247 Sqns) shot down by P-47s

17/1/45: Two RAF Mustangs shot down by Spitfires

14/2/45: Mustang KH542 (64 Sqn) shot down by frindly fire

22/2/45: Tempest EJ544 shot down by P-51
P-51 (Lt Peter Vassuer) shot down by 4thFG

6-7/3/45: Mosquito MM237 105 Sqn shot down by Allied NF

24-25/4/45: Mosquito MM588 409RCAF Sqn damaged by another Mosquito.

Cheers
Brian

Six Nifty .50s
6th November 2005, 21:25
Hi mhuxt - thanks for the details.

Michal - I had note of the incident but not full identities - thanks.

Six Nifty - great stuff. I have not consulted Schrader's book nor Gauker & Blood summaries (not aware of these).

Charles Schrader's book (one of the Leavenworth Papers) has been long out of print, but the U.S. Army has put the entire publication online, free of charge:

http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/Shrader/shrader.asp


Eleanor Gauker & Christopher Blood's report is available from NTIS. The title is Amicicide at Sea: Friendly Fire Incidents During World War II Naval Operations. - Final rept. Dec 92-Dec 93. Naval Health Research Center, San Diego, CA.

If you cannot find this at a public library, then order a copy from:

http://www.ntis.gov/search/product.asp?ABBR=ADA278291&starDB=GRAHIST


In addition, the following booklet might be of interest and you should be able to find it online or at a library:

Who Goes There : Friend or Foe. Washington, DC : Office of Technology Assessment, Congress of the U.S. : [Supt. of Docs., U.S. G.P.O., distributor, 1993]. ISBN: 0160418143

Six Nifty .50s
6th November 2005, 21:51
30/12/44: Lt Stovell 56FG shot down by P-47

December 31st, 1944
"...2nd Lt. William Stovall is officially credited with shooting down two Fw 190s on this mission, and while 62nd FS records credit him accordingly, the 56th Fighter Group records do not mention it at all. Regardless, Stovall was killed as he slid his P-47 into the line of fire of another while in pursuit of yet another Fw 190..."

See p.147, David R. McLaren. Beware the Thunderbolt: the 56th Fighter Group in World War II. Schiffer Books, 1994.

24-25/4/45: Mosquito MM588 409RCAF Sqn damaged by another Mosquito.

On p.48 of Martin Bowman's Mosquito Fighter/Fighter Bomber Units of World War 2 there is a photograph of the downed aircraft (it crash-landed wheels up) with Hardy and Fitchett posing in front of it.

Juha
7th November 2005, 21:38
Brian
You probably know already the attack on RN minesweepers off Etretat by 15 Typhoons from 263 and 266 sqns on 27.8.44. 2 minesweepers sunk, one was badly dam and 3 more lightly dam, 78 KIA and 149 WIA. More details can be found from example from Thomas' and Shores' The Typhoon & Tempest Story AAP 1988

It seems that on April 2 1943 Bf 109s from II/JG 77 shot down a Fw 190 of 11./SKG 10 near El Guettar in Tunis. The pilot Uffz. Peter von Zareba was killed. More details for ex. time, Wnr etc can be found from Andrew Arthy's and Morten Jessen's Focke-Wulff Fw 190 in North Afrika, Classic 2004. Andrew is a member of this board and at least earlier participated our discussions. He might have even more details. If You don't succeed contact him, I can easily post the details there are in the book.

Juha

Brian
8th November 2005, 09:13
Hi Six Nifty - when I clicked on to the Schrader website I realised that I had seen this previously, it's just that I hadn't realised that it had been extracted from his book! But thanks all the same. Sorry, I overlooked your earlier question - my book will deal with only air-orientated incidents - air-to-air, air-to-ground, ground-to-air, and related incidents.

Hi Juha - Yes, I have consulted both books you mention and therefore have extracted details of these incidents. Many thanks.

Cheers
Brian

PS:
Can anyone tell me the story behind a 7thPRG F-5B (42-67338) flown by Lt David K. Rowe being shot down by a Russian P-39 on 26 June 1944? Did he survive? Also, on 15 June 1944, an F-5A (42-12682) flown by Lt Col John R. Hoover crash-landed in Russia. Was he interned? Finally, on 6 January 1945, a Sgt Ken Wilson (groundcrew?) was killed in a take-off accident in P-51D of 368thFS. Was he on an unauthorised flight?

I'm sure one of you guys out there can supply teh answers. Thanks

Cheers
Brian

Six Nifty .50s
9th November 2005, 02:32
Can anyone tell me the story behind a 7thPRG F-5B (42-67338) flown by Lt David K. Rowe being shot down by a Russian P-39 on 26 June 1944? Did he survive? Also, on 15 June 1944, an F-5A (42-12682) flown by Lt Col John R. Hoover crash-landed in Russia. Was he interned? Finally, on 6 January 1945, a Sgt Ken Wilson (groundcrew?) was killed in a take-off accident in P-51D of 368thFS. Was he on an unauthorised flight?

Patricia Fussell Keen's Eyes of the Eighth says that Lt. Rowe bailed out and survived, although he was injured in a cockpit fire and treated for burns by doctors in Kiev. As he floated to earth, Rowe noticed that part of his parachute had burned and he wondered how the Airacobras reached 28,000 feet; the non-turbosupercharged Allisons were not exactly optimized for such heights. Maj. Hoover was intercepted by Yak fighters but his F-5 was not hit by gunfire. He landed safely at a Russian air base, refueled, and flew to Poltava where he received new orders for Italy.

On January 6th, 1945, P-51D 44-14509 was destined for an escort mission to Germany when it crashed on takeoff at East Wretham, killing Lt. Robert V. Beaupre of the 368th FS. Jack H. Smith's Mustangs & Unicorns shows a photograph of the wreckage, but he did not say that any ground crew were injured or killed at the crash site. The narrative does not mention other takeoff accidents on this date.

edwest
9th November 2005, 03:56
Here is my two cents:


http://members.aol.com/amerwar/ff/ff2.htm



Ed

Six Nifty .50s
9th November 2005, 05:10
Brian, can you answer the following?

15 Feb 42 - RAF Liberator AM918 shot down off Plymouth. Who was the attacker?

16 Dec 42 - RAF Marauder FK367 shot down by a Spitfire off Benghazi. Who was the attacker?

23 Dec 42 - RAF Beaufighter carrying a prototype radar was shot down by a Spitfire, with another Beaufighter damaged in the same action. Do you know serials, names of crews, and attacking squadron?

30 Dec 43 - RAF Baltimore damaged by friendly fire off Egypt. Who was the attacker?

27 May 44 - RAF Spitfire MJ401 attacked by a Spitfire, crashed into Lake Bracciano. Who was the attacker?

28 July 44 - Serial and crew of RAF Baltimore shot down by 600 Squadron Beaufighter?

28 Sep 44 - RAF Hurricane LF633 shot down by an Allied fighter off Peterhead. Who was the attacker?

24 Mar 45 - RAF Typhoon MN917 crash-landed after dogfight with Allied fighters. The other squadron?

Brian
9th November 2005, 08:08
Hi Six Nifty

The results of my research reveal the following:

15/2/42: F/Sgt Stanislaw Brzeski (AD308/JH-T) and Sgt Jan Malinowski (AR279/JH-R) of 317 squadron shot down AM918.

16/12/42: Flt Lt Robert Seed of 249 Squadron shot down FK367 (see '249 at Malta' for the full story)

23/12/42: Beaufighter V8387 of TFU (Telecommunications Flying Unit) crewed by S/L HB Mould and F/Lt AE Downing) shot down by Sgt Norman Gerrard RCAF (EP398/VL-E) of 167 Squadron. Second Beaufighter was X7583.

30/12/43: Baltimore FA230 (ex-41-27812) still to be researched.

27/5/44: Spitfire MJ401 still to be reserached

28/7/44: SAAF Baltimore of 13SAAF Squadron (still to be researched) damaged by F/Sgt Waitman 600 Squadron Beaufighter.

28/9/44: F/Lt J. Strusinski (LF633) of 309 Squadron shot down by another member of his squadron - still to be researched.

24/3/45: Typhoon MN917 flown by W/O Keith Bodden - attacker yet to be established - believed USAAF fighter. Incidentally, it seems that Bodden had shot down a 333 Squadron Mosquito in error on 11/6/44 when serving with 118 Squadron.

That's all I can do at the moment. Hope you'll still buy the book!! Only joking, there will be a complimentary coming your way in due course. Cheers

Brian

Brian
9th November 2005, 08:25
Thanks Ed - most interesting.

Cheers
Brian

Franek Grabowski
9th November 2005, 12:42
28/9/44: F/Lt J. Strusinski (LF633) of 309 Squadron shot down by another member of his squadron - still to be researched.

This was an accident. Two pilots were sent for a mock up dog fight with photo guns but also live ammunition. At one moment one of them pressed the tit to take photos but caused cannons to fire (both were operated by one trigger). He was just too close and too well aiming, and four Hispanos were a lethal weapon. Apparently, the pilot, whose name remains not confirmed, returned in deep shock, realising he killed his best friend.
PS Brian, are you alive?

John Vasco
9th November 2005, 13:59
Oblt. Otto Hintze, Staka of 4./JG 186, shot down by his own wingman on 1/6/1940.

SteveB
9th November 2005, 16:25
Brian

This thread is very interesting but for this "bear of little brain" it is becoming quite confusing now. I don't think you have had responses on the following. Not the complete story I am afraid.

28/10/44 Mustang I AM153/T was with 430(RCAF) Sqdn based at B.78 Eindhoven. According to Shores and Thomas in 2TAF V2 the a/c was flown by F/Lt J L McMahon who was attacked by a Spitfire at 1650 apparently the pilot bailed out “near B.78”. No details on attacking a/c.

17/1/45: This incident involves Mustang II from 268Sqdn based at B.77 Gilze-Rijen although two a/c were involved only one was lost. The following info is derived from research by Colin Ford the 268Sqdn historian:

F/O A T ‘Arthur’ Lord in FR918/U and F/L K O ‘Ken’ Jenkins in FR930/W took off at 1324 hrs to conduct a Tac/R covering the area Arnhem – Borculo – Bocholt – Kranenburg. The sortie proceeded without incident until they were near Bocholt at reference E8780 (about one and a half miles west of Doesburg) when they were ‘bounced’ by a flight of Spitfires. Initially the two pilots were relieved at seeing that their ‘attackers’ were friendly Spitfires from 83 Group, but this quickly turned to disbelief and shock as the Spitfires opened fire at close range. The Mustang of Jenkins was seen to go down over enemy territory, obviously badly damaged. Lord escaped the attentions of the Spitfires, and returned to base. Jenkins was initially posted as missing but confirmation was soon received that he had been killed either as the result of wounds received in the attack by the Spitfires or in the crash of his Mustang behind enemy lines. F/Lt K O Jenkins is buried at Arnhem Oosterbeek War Cemetary. No details on attacking a/c.

14/2/45 Mustang III KH542 64 Sqn shot down by friendly fire. Does your info allow for the possibility of "ground fire"? This incident took place during an escort to bombers attacking rail targets at Bielefeld and Altenbecken. It is not clear but it appears that on the outward leg West of Enschede F/Lt G A ‘Richie’ Richards had engine trouble in KH542 and turned back with P/Off A O Lloyd as escort. Richards steadily lost height down to 600ft when Lloyd left him to investigate two Spitfires that appeared to be attempting to bounce them. Lloyd lost Richards as a result but made contact with him by radio Richards reported that he was still at 600ft with an IAS of 150mph. It is thought that they were over friendly territory by this time. Lloyd landed at Antwerp but nothing further was heard from Richards. The mission was airborne at 0930 so it would seem likely that this incident occurred fairly soon into the mission. Richards does not seem to appear on the CWGC. No details on attacking a/c.

Steve

Nikita Egorov
10th November 2005, 08:01
Dear Brian,

Are you interested only in friendly fire incidents in the Allied air forces, or also in Soviet VVS? It seems to me that any book aiming to cover all period of WWII in terms of friend or foe misidentification will be incomplete without records from Eastern front. There are lots of such cases from the Soviet side. If you are interested, please contact me off-board.

Best regards,
Nikita
nicknn@rambler.ru

Franek Grabowski
10th November 2005, 13:44
Nikita
I have sens some to Brian covering 1941 - we did not went further - so definetelly he would be interested. ;)
Nayway, a question to you - I have an incident involving Kaberov but I recall it being suspect. Could you explain?

Nikita Egorov
10th November 2005, 15:25
Nikita
I have sens some to Brian covering 1941 - we did not went further - so definetelly he would be interested. ;)
Nayway, a question to you - I have an incident involving Kaberov but I recall it being suspect. Could you explain?

Franek,

Unfortunatelly, I'am not keen on Navy fighters, so I can not prove or reject regarding incident with Kaberov. You better adress Andrey Dikov, who is specialist on this.

Brian
10th November 2005, 19:18
Thanks John (nice to hear from you again, neighbour!) and Steve - much appreciated. E-mail on the way, Nikita. Thanks.

Cheers
Brian

Brian
10th November 2005, 19:18
Thanks John (nice to hear from you again, neighbour!) and Steve - much appreciated. E-mail on the way, Nikita. Thanks.

Cheers
Brian

Six Nifty .50s
10th November 2005, 23:59
Brian, thanks for the info. What follows represents much of what I have on World War II air-to-ground incidents, including some involving PT boats because I don't remember if all were covered by Paul Kemp. This list includes attacks by British and Commonwealth aircrews. Apologies in advance for any typographic errors that I may have missed.

May 1940
The crew of an RAF Whitley from No. 10 Squadron not only bombed the wrong country, they bombed their own country! Sent to attack an airfield in Holland, but due to a navigational error the Whitley instead bombed the RAF station at Bassingbourn. See http://www.etherington.demon.co.uk/1940/may/27.htm >

January 1941
RAF aircraft strafed General Savory's 11th Indian Brigade in Eritrea, North Africa. The exact number of losses was not mentioned. See p.141, Regan, Geoffrey. Blue on Blue: A History of Friendly Fire (New York, NY: Avon Books, 1995).

February 1941
Six RAF Spitfire pilots flew an air show at Salisbury Plain, a live firing exercise to demonstrate the latest 20mm cannons. A group of trucks was lined up and strafed for a crowd of dignitaries. The last plane to make a firing pass shot up the spectators -- killing five officers including two generals and wounding about 20 others. Photographs taken by the War Office were confiscated and the witnesses were sworn to secrecy. See p.77, Bickers, Richard Townshend. Friendly Fire: Accidents in Battle from Ancient Greece to the Gulf War (London: Leo Cooper, 1994).

November 1941
RAF aircraft bombed the 1st Essex Regiment during Operation CRUSADER, causing about 40 casualties. See p.141, Regan, Geoffrey. Blue on Blue: A History of Friendly Fire (New York, NY: Avon Books, 1995).

June 1942
RAF Wellingtons pummeled Allied troops near Mersa Matruh, North Africa. One of the victims was the 4th County of London Yeomanry, British 7th Armoured Division. Data given on losses was vague, although it was said much damage was caused. The regimental historian thought it was worth mentioning that the officers mess vehicle was destroyed with its priceless whiskey. One soldier earned a medal by saving some of the vehicles from the fires. See p.65, Graham, Andrew. Sharpshooters at War: The 3rd and 4th and 3rd/4th County of London Yeomanry, 1939-1945 (London: Sharpshooters Regimental Association, 1964).

The British 3rd Hussars were also hit, apparently in the same raid, but their total losses were not specified. See p.95-96, Bickers, Richard Townshend. Friendly Fire: Accidents in Battle from Ancient Greece to the Gulf War (London: Leo Cooper, 1994).

The aftermath of RAF raids at this time were also seen by the Germans: "...The RAF had bombed their own troops, and with tracer flying in all directions, German units fired on each other. At 0500 hours next morning 28th June, I drove up to the breakout area where we had spent such a disturbed night. There we found a number of lorries filled with the mangled corpses of New Zealanders who had been killed by the British bombs..." Quote by Erwin Rommel. See p.238-239, Liddell-Hart, Basil Henry. The Rommel Papers (New York, NY: Harcourt, Brace, Javanovich, 1953).

October 1942
During the second battle of El Alamein, the RAF bombed British troops during a four hour raid. The British 10th Hussars were among the victims and they did not know the proper distress signal to call off their planes. See p.4, Bickers, Richard Townshend. Friendly Fire: Accidents in Battle from Ancient Greece to the Gulf War (London: Leo Cooper, 1994).

October 1942
After a series of mistaken attacks by the RAF Desert Air Force, the commanding officer of 1st South African Division was prompted to say that "...if you've got to bomb my trucks, you might at least hit them! You've missed them every bloody time..." See p.4, Bickers, Richard Townshend. Friendly Fire: Accidents in Battle from Ancient Greece to the Gulf War (London: Leo Cooper, 1994).

March 1944
Two US Navy torpedo boats (PT 121 and PT 353) were destroyed in error by RAAF Kittyhawks of 78 Squadron, along with an RAAF Beaufighter of 30 Squadron. A second Beaufighter crew recognized the vessels as PTs and tried to stop the attack, but not before both boats exploded and sank off the coast of New Britain. Eight American sailors were killed with 12 others wounded. See p.232-233, Bulkley, Robert. At Close Quarters: PT Boats in the United States Navy (Washington, D.C.: Naval History Division, 1962).

June 1944
RAF fighters bombed and strafed the HQ of 3rd Parachute Brigade, British 6th Airborne Division. Several men were killed or wounded, including Brigadier James Hill, who said that the planes appeared to be Spitfires though it was later discovered that the attacking aircraft were Typhoons. See p.108-109, Shilleto, Carl. Pegasus Bridge & Merville Battery: British 6th Airborne Landings in Normandy 6th June 1944. Battleground Europe series (London: Leo Cooper, 1999).

June 1944
RAF Lancasters bombed the German artillery battery at Merville, but succeeded only in killing most of the British reconaissance party and devastating the town. They also mistakenly bombed Drop Zone 'V ' of the 6th Airborne Division -- total losses there was not specified. See p. 101-102, Gregory, Barry. British Airborne Troops 1940-45 (New York: Doubleday & Co., 1974). See p.99, Bernage, Georges. Red Devils in Normandy, 6th Airborne Division, 5-6 June 1944 (Bayeux: Editions Heimdal, 2002).

June 1944
LCT's of 77 Assault Squadron, Royal Engineers were about 20 yards from Sword Beach when they were bombed by four RAF aircraft. See p.93, Delaforce, Patrick. Churchill's Secret Weapons: The Story of Hobart's Funnies (London, UK: Robert Hale, 1998).

June 1944
RAF Typhoons bombed, rocketed and strafed the 175th Infantry Regiment, US 29th Division on the Isigny Highway, causing 24 casualties. Officers on the scene were furious but ordered their men to avoid returning fire, hoping that pilots would recognize their mistake, but this gesture apparently had no effect. In the aftermath one company commander told his men that in the future they should open fire on any plane that attacked. See p.169, Balkoski, Joseph. Beyond the Beachhead: The 29th Infantry Division in Normandy, 2nd Edition (Harrisburg, PA: Stackpole Books, 1999).

July 1944
The RAF Bomber Command raid on Caen killed a large number of French civilians, some 5,000 people by one estimate, with untold numbers wounded. See p.213-215, McKee, Alexander. Caen: Anvil of Victory (New York: Dorset Press, 1962).

July 1944
RAF fighters bombed the 4th Dorsets, 43rd Wessex Division during the battle for Hill 112 in the Odon Valley. Several men were wounded and one man was killed. See p.66, Saunders, Tim. Hill 112: Battles for the Odon. Battleground Europe series (London: Leo Cooper, 2001).

July 1944
The 4th Dorsets were assailed by RAF fighters for a second time during the battle for Hill 112. At least two men were seriously wounded as Typhoon rockets exploded around them. See p.118, Saunders, Tim. Hill 112: Battles for the Odon. Battleground Europe series (London: Leo Cooper, 2001).

July 1944
At about 1845 hours on 31st July, RAF Typhoons rocketed the staging area of the Grenadier Guards, British Guards Armoured Division. See p.82, Nicolson, Nigel, and Forbes, Patrick. The Grenadier Guards in the War of 1939-1945. Two Volume set (Aldershot: Gale & Polden, 1949).

July 1944
At 2200 hours on 31st July, RAF Typhoons attacked the Grenadier Guards for the second time. 1st Squadron tanks were near their objective when the Typhoons dropped sixteen bombs on them, followed by eight aircraft firing rockets. Evidently none of the vehicles were hit. See p.82, Nicolson, Nigel, and Forbes, Patrick. The Grenadier Guards in the War of 1939-1945. Two Volume set (Aldershot: Gale & Polden, 1949).

August 1944
RAF Typhoons attacked several half tracks of the British 43rd Wessex Division near Jurques. Two men were wounded. See p.63, Essame, Hubert. The 43rd Wessex Division at War:1944-1945 (London: William Clowes & Sons Ltd., 1952).

August 1944
RAF Typhoons of the 2nd TAF assisted U.S. ground forces in stopping a German armored attack between Sourdeval and Mortain on August 7th. The air support from RAF fighters was welcomed by US troops in some places at the front, but that was not always the case. Lt. Tom Springfield of the 823rd Tank Destroyer Battalion said, " The only time we saw a Typhoon is when they hit us ". As commander of a road block at L’Abbaye Blanche, his tank destroyer platoon was engaged with elements of the 2nd SS Panzer Division. Even after Springfield's men put out recognition markers and fired yellow smoke, several Typhoon rockets exploded near two of his towed 3-inch guns, killing one man and wounding others.
See p.129-137, Featherston, Alwyn. Battle for Mortain: The 30th Infantry Division Saves the Breakout, August 7-12, 1944 (Novato, CA: Presidio, 1998). See p.61, Gill, Lonnie. Tank Destroyer Forces WWII (Paducuh, KY: Turner Publishing, 1992).

August 1944
RAF Typhoons attacked the Cannon Company of 120th Infantry Regiment, US 30th Division, near Mortain although losses if any were not mentioned. See p.135, Featherston, Alwyn. Battle for Mortain: The 30th Infantry Division Saves the Breakout, August 7-12, 1944 (Novato, CA: Presidio, 1998).

August 1944
RAF Typhoons shot up the Service Company of the 120th Infantry Regiment, US 30th Division, causing several casualties, including Major James Bynum who was killed near Mortain. The officer who replaced him was strafed by another Typhoon a few minutes later and seriously wounded. See p.135, Featherston, Alwyn. Battle for Mortain: The 30th Infantry Division Saves the Breakout, August 7-12, 1944 (Novato, CA: Presidio, 1998).

August 1944
RAF Typhoons strafed a squad from ‘F’ Company, US 120th Infantry Regiment, near Hill 314. Two men were killed. See p.111-112, Featherston, Alwyn. Battle for Mortain: The 30th Infantry Division Saves the Breakout, August 7-12, 1944 (Novato, CA: Presidio, 1998).

August 1944
RAF Typhoons rocketed two Sherman tanks from ‘C’ Company, US 743rd Tank Battalion near Mortain. Number of crew casualties was unclear but the resulting inferno and smoke subsequently attracted fire from nearby US artillery units. See p.56, Folkestad, William. The View from the Turret: The 743rd Tank Battalion During WWII (Shippensburg, PA: Burd Street Press, 2000).

August 1944
Two Shermans from 'A' Company, US 743rd Tank Battalion were set ablaze by friendly planes near Mortain. It was not specified whether this was caused by RAF Typhoons or USAAF P-47 Thunderbolts. One tank crewman was killed. See p.56, Folkestad, William. The View from the Turret: The 743rd Tank Battalion During WWII (Shippensburg, PA: Burd Street Press, 2000).

August 1944
RAF Typhoons strafed ‘B’ Company, US 120th Infantry Regiment on Hill 285, killing the driver of a weapons carrier. US troops reported that Typhoon pilots had trouble telling the difference between live German tanks and dead ones. British planes constantly attacked vehicles that had been knocked out by US guns earlier in the day. See p.135-136, Featherston, Alwyn. Battle for Mortain: The 30th Infantry Division Saves the Breakout, August 7-12, 1944 (Novato, CA: Presidio, 1998).

August 1944
RAF Typhoons shot up units of the British Columbia Regiment and the Algonquin Regiment, 4th Canadian Armoured Division, near Quesnay Wood during Operation TOTALIZE. Later that day, the same units were mistakenly fired upon by tanks and artillery of the 1st Polish Armoured Division. See p.80-83, Cassidy, George. Warpath: The Story of the Algonquin Regiment, 1939-1945 (Toronto: Algonquin Regt. Veterans' Association, 1948).

August 1944
RAF Typhoons fired rockets at Shermans of ‘A’ Company, US 743rd Tank Battalion, causing damage to one tank. See p.58, Folkestad, William. The View from the Turret: The 743rd Tank Battalion During WWII (Shippensburg, PA: Burd Street Press, 2000).

August 1944
RAF Typhoons attacked ‘B’ Company of the 4th Wiltshires, British 43rd Wessex Division near La Villette. Losses if any not specified. See p.80, Essame, Hubert. The 43rd Wessex Division at War:1944-1945 (London: William Clowes & Sons Ltd., 1952).

August 1944
RAF heavy bombers hit Allied troops in error during Operation TRACTABLE causing about 490 casualties including 112 dead. The bombings also wiped out 265 Allied vehicles, 30 field guns and two tanks. In retaliation, British anti-aircraft guns opened fire on the RAF bombers. See p.122, Bickers, Richard Townshend. Air War Normandy (London: Leo Cooper, 1994).

August 1944
Between August 14-18, the South Alberta Regiment of the 4th Canadian Armoured Division was attacked six times by RAF fighters and other units had similar experiences. A number of vehicles were set ablaze and in some cases the yellow smoke used for signalling friendly planes was ignored by RAF pilots. Out of frustration, an officer of the South Albertas wanted his Crusader AA tanks to shoot at the Spitfires attacking his HQ. See p.122-138, Graves, Donald. South Albertas: A Canadian Regiment at War (Toronto: Robin Brass Studio, 1998).

August 1944
The 51st Highland Division was jumped by RAF fighters near the River Vie: "...and then the usual trouble began. The Camerons actually had to stop advancing because Spitfires had knocked out every wireless vehicle in their establishment..."

See p.166, Salmond, James Bell. The History of the 51st Highland Division, 1939-1945 (Edinburgh & London: William Blackwood & Sons, 1953).

August 1944
"...The 5th Camerons had to abandon their attack...because the Spitfires had knocked out every wireless vehicle they possessed and they were unable to communicate with brigade, their companies, or the gunners. Against such an emergency we had each been provided with a triangle of yellow silk, the idea being that the forward troops should lay them out and draw attention to themselves. The triangles, however, were by no means foolproof, because the man who was being shot up was usually much too busy taking cover to have time to display one; whereas all the troops a mile behind him, fearing that they would be the next victims, immediately rushed to display theirs. The pilot then took the triangles to be the front line and then continued to harry those in front -- if he saw triangles at all... which...was doubtful..."
Capt Alastair Borthwick
5th Bn, Seaforth Highlanders
British 51st Highland Division

See p.89, Windrow, Martin. The Soldier‘s Story: D-Day and the Battle for Normandy (Washington, D.C.: Brassey's, 2001).

August 1944
RAF fighters shot up elements of British 7th Armoured Division and caused about 20 casualties, including the intelligence officer of 8th Hussars who was severely wounded. The colonel riding along was badly shaken when their jeep crashed. See p.224, Verney, Gerald Lloyd. The Desert Rats: The History of the 7th Armoured Division 1938 to 1945 (London: Hutchinson, 1954).

August 1944
RAF fighters attacked the Norfolk Yeomanry anti-tank regiment of British 7th Armoured Division. Three guns [probably M-10 Tank Destroyers] were knocked out and other vehicles were set on fire. See p.224, Verney, Gerald Lloyd. The Desert Rats: The History of the 7th Armoured Division 1938 to 1945 (London: Hutchinson, 1954).

August 1944
RAF fighters attacked troops of the Queen's Royal Regiment, British 7th Armoured Division, near Lisieux: "...The battalion's few casualties were caused mostly by our own Spitfires, which twice strafed the main Livarot road..." See p.378, Foster, R.C.G. History of the Queen's Royal Regiment, vol.VIII, 1924-1948 (Aldershot: Gale & Polden Ltd., 1953).

September 1944
By this time the British Guards Armoured Division feared RAF fighters more than German fighters:

"...Intoxicated with excitement though they were, the citizens of Beauvais were sufficiently level-headed to notice that the Grenadiers kept glancing up towards the sky. This puzzled them, and one elderly Frenchman tackled an officer on the subject. ‘Why’ he asked, ‘are you so worried about being attacked from the air when you have air superiority?’ The reason was simple. Bitter experience had taught the Battalions that friendly planes, especially in forward areas and during swift advances, were often to be feared more than those of the enemy... the troops had learnt that a Typhoon attack was far more nerve-wracking than anything the Luftwaffe could produce..."

See p.104, Nicolson, Nigel, and Forbes, Patrick. The Grenadier Guards in the War of 1939-1945. Two Volume set (Aldershot: Gale & Polden, 1949).

September 1944
"...The afternoon had passed quietly near Arras, disturbed only by two British fighters, which machine-gunned the area and set a Welsh Guards lorry on fire. 'Vive la RAF' had been chalked on several vehicles by overjoyed civilians: After this incident the divisional commander's ADC, Capt. the Hon. A. D. Tyron, walked over to his scout car and added the words 'except two Spitfires'..."

See p.107, Nicolson, Nigel, and Forbes, Patrick. The Grenadier Guards in the War of 1939-1945. Two Volume set (Aldershot: Gale & Polden, 1949).

September 1944
RAF Typhoons shot up a column of Irish Guards, Guards Armoured Division, while enroute to Tourneau. Your correspondent forgot to record the source of this incident, but it came from an Irish Guards unit history and I recall going through more than one title pertaining to this regiment.

September 1944
RAF Typhoons destroyed two Sherman tanks of the Governor General's Foot Guards, 4th Canadian Armoured Division, in the vicinity of Maldegum:

"...While so deployed the tanks were suddenly attacked, in mistake, by several Typhoon aircraft. Lt. Middleton-Hope's tank was badly hit, killing the gunner Gdsm. Hughes, and the tank was set on fire. Almost immediately Sgt. Jenning's tank was similarly knocked out by Typhoon rockets. Meanwhile the Typhoons continued to press home their attack with machine guns and rockets, and, while trying to extricate the gunner, Lt. Middleton-Hope was blown off the tank. In this tragic encounter Gdsm. G.E. Baker, Barter, and Cheal were seriously wounded..."

See p.144, The Regimental History of the Governor General's Foot Guards (Ottawa: 1948). Author unknown, possibly A. R. Jessup, or written by committee.

Another description of the same incident was found:

"...Unfortunately the Typhoons’ targets were two Foot Guards tanks working their way up on a highway about 400 yards to our right...the Guards lost two men killed and two Shermans 'rocketed out of this world'..."

See p.204, Graves, Donald. South Albertas: A Canadian Regiment at War (Toronto: Robin Brass Studio, 1998).

January 1945
RAF fighters strafed the assault gun platoon (105mm Sherman tanks) of US 743rd Tank Battalion, near Sart-Lez-St.-Vith. See p.88, Folkestad, William. The View from the Turret: The 743rd Tank Battalion During WWII (Shippensburg, PA: Burd Street Press, 2000).

* * *

p.s. There is some interesting commentary about aircraft rocket attacks quoted on p.116 of Ian Gooderson's Air Power at the Battlefront, and I think it is worth mentioning here:

"...Interrogation of German prisoners has shown without question that German tank crews are extremely frightened of attacks by RP... Crews are very aware that if an RP does hit a tank, their chance of survival is small. It is admitted that the chances of a direct hit are slight; nevertheless, this would hardly be appreciated by a crew whose first thought would be of the disastrous results if a hit were obtained..."

According to the footnotes, those remarks were extracted from an RAF tactical bulletin, dated October 1944. However, based the number of crew losses from Allied tanks known to be hit by Typhoon rockets, the assumption that an RP hit was almost always fatal to a tank crew member might be an exaggeration. More to follow.

Six Nifty .50s
11th November 2005, 00:08
This list covers attacks by American aircraft on ground and surface targets:

July 1943
During one week of operations in Sicily, Combat Command 'A' of the 2nd Armored Division lost 14 vehicles and 75 casualties to USAAF air attacks. General Maurice Rose ordered his command not to fire on friendly aircraft but a P-38 Lightning was shot down in self-defense. The pilot bailed out safely and evidently the Air Force made some adjustments because the misdirected air strikes stopped for the duration of the campaign. See p.175-176, Houston, Donald Eugene. Hell On Wheels: The 2d Armored Division (Novato, CA:Presidio, 1977).

July 1943
The U.S. Navy torpedo boat PT 166 was strafed and destroyed in error by USAAF B-25 bombers off the island of New Georgia. Two other PTs were hit and one Mitchell was shot down by the return fire, splashing into the sea about five miles away. The crew of PT 166 and three survivors from the B-25 were picked up by PT 164 and PT 168. See p.119-120, Bulkley, Robert. At Close Quarters: PT Boats in the United States Navy (Washington, D.C.: Naval History Division, 1962).

January 1944
USAAF P-40 Warhawks accidentally strafed an RAF airfield near Trigno, Italy. Amount of damage and casualties if any were unspecified. See p.111, Bickers, Richard Townshend. Friendly Fire: Accidents in Battle from Ancient Greece to the Gulf War (London: Leo Cooper, 1994).

March 1944
USAAF bombers accidentally hit Allied troops during a raid on Cassino, causing about 300 casualties. See p.251, Gooderson, Ian. Air Power at the Battlefront: Allied Close Air Support in Europe 1943-45 (London, Portland, OR: Frank Cass, 1998).

April 1944
The U.S. Navy torpedo boats PT 346 and PT 347 were destroyed in error by U.S. Navy fighters off New Britain. See p.233-234, Bulkley, Robert. At Close Quarters: PT Boats in the United States Navy (Washington, D.C.: Naval History Division, 1962).

June 1944
A Sherman tank of 'A' Squadron, 4th/7th Royal Dragoons was moving inland when it drove into a hidden depression and rolled on its side. The crew was standing near the overturned tank when they were seen and strafed in error by a USAAF Thunderbolt. Yellow smoke was released and the P-47 pilot stopped the attack. See p.70-71, Dunphie, Christopher & Garry Johnson. Gold Beach: Inland from King June 1944 (London: Leo Cooper, 1999).

June 1944
Members of the 377th Parachute Field Artillery Battalion, 101st Airborne Division, were strafed by USAAF P-47 fighters near the causeway above Carentan. Fortunately no one was hit. See p.139, Bando, Mark. The 101st Airborne at Normandy (Osceola, WI: Motorbooks International, 1994).

June 1944
USAAF P-47 Thunderbolts accidentally bombed paratroopers of the 101st Airborne Division who were guarding the water crossings over the Douvre near Brevands. One man was killed and three wounded. Two wooden bridges were destroyed in error by the Thunderbolts, possibly due to the lack of radio communications with the planes. See p.148, Rapport, Leonard and Arthur Norwood. Rendezvous with Destiny:History of the 101st Airborne Division (Fort Campbell, KY: The 101st Airborne Association, 1948).

July 1944
During Operation GOODWOOD, a stray bomb dropped by a USAAF B-26 Marauder hit 'B' Squadron of the 23rd Hussars, British 11th Armoured Division. Two men were killed and one wounded. See p.69-70, Regimental Committee. The Story of the 23rd Hussars, 1940-46 (Aldershot: 1946).

July 1944
USAAF bombers hit US troops in error during an abortive airstrike near St. Lo, causing about 155 casualties. See p.138, Blumenson, Martin. The Battle of the Generals (New York: William Morrow, 1993).

July 1944
USAAF bombers remounted their raid from the previous day. This time Operation COBRA was not cancelled, but US positions were again plastered by bombs causing about 600 casualties including Lt. Gen. Lesley McNair, the commander of Army Ground Forces who was killed. Another 200 men were battle fatigue cases and at least one US tank was knocked out, an 'A' Company Sherman of 70th Tank Battalion. See p.139, Blumenson, Martin. The Battle of the Generals (New York: William Morrow, 1993). See p.75, Hall, Chester. History of the 70th Tank Battalion, 1940-46 (1946).

July 1944
USAAF P-47s bombed elements of the US 2nd Armored Division near Canisy. Identification panels and yellow smoke were used to signal the planes, although the Germans were reported to be using orange smoke for the same purpose. Losses if any were unspecified. See p.216, Houston, Donald Eugene. Hell On Wheels: The 2d Armored Division (Novato, CA:Presidio, 1977).

July 1944
USAAF P-47s attacked the US 644th Tank Destroyer Battalion near Periers. Losses if any were unspecified. See p.20, Battalion Committee. The 644th Tank Destroyer Battalion (1945).

August 1944
USAAF P-47 Thunderbolts strafed elements of the 2nd Fife and Forfar Yeomanry of British 11th Armoured Division, near Vassy. Yellow recognition smoke was released to signal the planes, but this was either ignored or not seen. Losses if any were not specified. See p.84, Delaforce, Patrick. The Black Bull: From Normandy to the Baltic with the 11th Armoured Division (Stroud, UK: Alan Sutton, 1993).

August 1944
USAAF P-47 Thunderbolts bombed, rocketed and strafed various elements of the British 11th Armoured Division. At least one man was killed, some vehicles of the 8th Rifle Brigade medical unit were hit and a half-track was destroyed. See p.88-89, Delaforce, Patrick. The Black Bull: From Normandy to the Baltic with the 11th Armoured Division (Stroud, UK: Alan Sutton, 1993). See p.100, Regimental Committee. The Story of the 23rd Hussars, 1940-46 (Aldershot: 1946).

August 1944
USAAF heavy bombers hit Allied troops in error during Operation TOTALIZE. 83 vehicles and seven field guns were knocked out, although there seems to be a discrepancy in the casualties reported. Roughly 375-460 depending on whose figures you believe. See p.121, Bickers, Richard Townshend. Air War Normandy (London: Leo Cooper, 1994). See p.251, Gooderson, Ian. Air Power at the Battlefront: Allied Close Air Support in Europe 1943-45 (London, Portland, OR: Frank Cass, 1998).

August 1944
USAAF P-47 Thunderbolts shot up elements of the Grenadier Guards of British Guards Armoured Division near the Vire-Estry Road. Three men were killed and one wounded. See p.99, Nicolson, Nigel, and Patrick Forbes. The Grenadier Guards in the War of 1939-1945, Two Volume set (Aldershot: Gale & Polden, 1949).

August 1944
Elements of US 3rd Armored Division were attacked near Ranes."...One of the unfortunate incidents of war occurred when a P-47, attempting to attack German forces one field ahead of American tanks, accidentally dropped a bomb short. Several GI's were wounded seriously and one killed outright. Another bomb fell within fifty yards of General Hickey's command post, also injuring a number of soldiers. Faulty release mechanisms on the airplanes were believed to be the chief reason for these occurences..." See p.79, Divisional Committee. Spearhead in the West, 1941-45: The Third Armored Division (Frankfurt am Main-Schwanheim: F.J. Henrich, 1945).

August 1944
USAAF P-38 Lightnings attacked the Seaforths and the Camerons of 51st Highland Division on several occasions near the River Vie. See p.166, Salmond, James Bell. The History of the 51st Highland Division, 1939-1945 (Edinburgh & London: William Blackwood & Sons, 1953).

August 1944
Units of Combat Command 'A' US 3rd Armored Division were driven out of Fromentel by USAAF P-38 Lightnings, which had been dropping bombs too close for comfort. When CCA returned to the village, they were again bombed by P-38s and the men began to duck for foxholes whenever they saw the twin-boom fighters approaching. See p.80, Divisional Committee. Spearhead in the West, 1941-45: The Third Armored Division (Frankfurt am Main-Schwanheim: F.J. Henrich, 1945).

August 1944
USAAF P-47 Thunderbolts dive-bombed and strafed the British Columbia Regiment of 4th Canadian Armoured Division, fatally injuring Major Jack Worthington and Trooper A. Hallmark. See Chapter VI, Regimental Committee. The Story of the British Columbia Regiment 1939-1945. Undated with no author, publisher or page numbers listed. Probably printed in Vancouver in the 1940s.

September 1944
USAAF P-47s strafed a group of Americans from the 502nd Parachute Infantry Regiment, 101st Airborne Division. Lt. Col. Robert Cole (Medal of Honor for action in Normandy) ran out into a field to signal the attacking planes and was killed by a German sniper. See p.35, Bando, Mark. The 101st Airborne, From Holland to Hitler's Eagles Nest (Osceola, WI: Motorbooks International, 1994).

September 1944
USAAF P-38 Lightnings attacked the US 644th Tank Destroyer Battalion near Brest. Losses if any were unspecified. See p.22, Battalion Committee. The 644th Tank Destroyer Battalion (1945).

September 1944
USAAF P-47 strafed elements of the US 602nd Tank Destroyer Battalion near Bathlemont. No one was hit and the pilot broke off his attack after passing over the column. See p.12, Oliver, Bertrand. History of the 602nd Tank Destroyer Battalion: March 1941 to November 1945 (East Lansing, MI: 602nd Tank Destroyer Association, 1990).

December 1944
USAAF bombers accidentally dropped short on the Ardennes town of Malmédy, which was apparently hit more than once. Up to 300 civilians and an unknown number of Americans were killed. See p.13-14, Pallud, Jean-Paul. Ardennes 1944: Peiper and Skorzeny (London: Osprey Publishing, 1987).

December 1944
"...there were a few occasions when American planes had attacked (the 610th Tank Destroyer Battalion) and it was never determined exactly whether they were being flown by American pilots..." See p.69, McGrann, Roy. The 610th Tank Destroyer Battalion: April 10, 1942 to December 7, 1945 (Elizabeth, PA, 1946).

December 1944
USAAF P-47s bombed and strafed elements of the US 101st Airborne Division as they attacked German units in Marvie. As he jumped into a foxhole, Colonel Bud Harper saw that some colored recognition panels had been on display but these were either ignored or undetected by the pilots. See p.526, Rapport, Leonard and Arthur Norwood. Rendezvous with Destiny:History of the 101st Airborne Division (Fort Campbell, KY: The 101st Airborne Association, 1948).

December 1944
USAAF P-47s bombed and strafed elements of the US 740th Tank Battalion and 119th Infantry Regiment of US 30th Division. One tank from the 740th was knocked out and three men were slightly wounded. See p.70 and p.240-243, Rubel, George Kenneth. Daredevil Tankers: The Story of the 740th Tank Battalion, US Army (1945).

January 1945
USAAF P-47s strafed a group of Americans from the 502nd Parachute Infantry Regiment, 101st Airborne Division. Lt. Col. John Stopka was killed in the attack. Ironically, Stopka had replaced Lt. Col. Robert Cole, who was killed by a sniper following a friendly fire accident with P-47s. See p.121, Bando, Mark. The 101st Airborne, From Holland to Hitler's Eagles Nest (Osceola, WI: Motorbooks International, 1994).

March 1945
USAAF P-51s of the 359th Fighter Group attacked a German train which, in this case, was carrying some 220 Allied PoWs on their way to Stalag IIB. In one of life’s little ironies, a downed pilot of the 359th was aboard this train. He asked some of the prisoners to wave hankerchiefs out the windows of the boxcars to signal the fighters, which may have been noticed because the strafing passes stopped. See p.134, Smith, Jack. Mustangs & Unicorns: A History of the 359th Fighter Group (Missoula, MT: Pictorial Histories Publishing, 1997).

April 1945
USAAF bombers accidentally hit Allied troops during Operation BUCKLAND, causing about 160 casualties. See p.251, Gooderson, Ian. Air Power at the Battlefront: Allied Close Air Support in Europe 1943-45 (London, Portland, OR: Frank Cass, 1998).

April 1945
USAAF aircraft knocked out an M5 Light Tank of the British 17th/21st Lancers, near Gallo, Italy. Two men were killed. Two other armoured regiments in the area were also attacked by the same group of aircraft. A few days later, the crew of a Sherman Firefly from the 17th/21st Lancers misidentified and opened fire on a US tank near Pilastrello, Italy. Fortunately the 17-pounder gun missed the target and by coincidence that proved to be the last shot expended by the regiment during World War II.

See p.222-223, ffrench Blake, Robert Lifford Valentine. A History of the 17th/21st Lancers:1922-1959 (London: MacMillan, 1962).

Brian
11th November 2005, 10:50
Wow! Thanks a million Six Nifty - I wouldn't have found this information on my own! That's why I turned to the experts on this website (thanks Ruy) in the hope that such material would surface. I do appreciate the time and effort you and others have taken to help me - hopefully, OUR reward will be a comprehensive account of aerial friendly-fire incidents relating to WWII, to enable future historians and writers to understand the complexities and tragedies, not to mention the futility, of war.

I am sure there are more incidents to be uncovered.

Cheers
Brian

Six Nifty .50s
11th November 2005, 20:29
Wow! Thanks a million Six Nifty - I wouldn't have found this information on my own! That's why I turned to the experts on this website (thanks Ruy) in the hope that such material would surface. I do appreciate the time and effort you and others have taken to help me - hopefully, OUR reward will be a comprehensive account of aerial friendly-fire incidents relating to WWII, to enable future historians and writers to understand the complexities and tragedies, not to mention the futility, of war.

I am sure there are more incidents to be uncovered.

Cheers
Brian


I don't know if you explored this yet, but I'll add some material regarding aircraft paint schemes that were specifically applied to discourage friendly fire accidents:

"...Ironically, it was at this time [August 28th, 1940] that the Luftwaffe's Jagdgeschwader were being issued with bright yellow paint and instructions to paint their cowlings, rudders and wingtips. The pilots were not told why, and speculated that they were special markings for the invasion. In fact it was an aid to aircraft recognition, to make sure that mistakes such as those that had cost Fighter Command two aircraft did not happen to them. Given the numbers of aircraft now in the sky, avoiding friendly fire now took precedence over camouflage. British pilots who saw the new colour-schemes quickly decided that they marked out elite units, which flattered not only their opponents but them too, as surely more honourable to be shot down by an elite pilot than by an ordinary one. It was convenient that all the enemy fighters belonged to elite units. Henceforth yellow-nose bastards' began to rival the more traditional 'snappers' as a sobriquet for Bf 109s..." See p.274, Bungay, Stephen. The Most Dangerous Enemy: A History of the Battle of Britain (London: Aurum Press, 2000. 2005).

There were further efforts at preventing misidentification of Luftwaffe planes by German pilots. Major Erich Rudorffer was quoted :

"...We tried out the airscrew hubs of the Bf 109E in all possible colours as early as the first attacks on England. In JG 2 "Richtofen" ... we flew for a long period with the so-called Burbelschnauze (curlicue nose), that is, the airscrew hubs of our Bf 109G aircraft had white spirals. The purpose of all this was to afford identification of an aircraft approaching from astern as "one of ours" or an enemy..." See p.127, Nowarra, Heinz. The Messerschmitt 109: A Famous German Fighter (Fallbrook, CA: Aero Publishers, 1966).

* * *

Heinz Nowarra summarized the RAF response to identification problems with the Typhoon and the Mustang that entered service a couple years later:

"...The R.A.F. knowing the shortcomings of the Spitfire Vs and Hurricane IIs had great hopes pinned on the Typhoon. Potentially, with its 2,000 h.p. Sabre engine, it would match the Fw 190 but it had a series of teething troubles affecting both the engine and airframe. Not only this, but its appearance was not unlike that of an Fw 190 as No. 56, the first Typhoon squadron, knew to their cost. Two of their aircraft were shot down by Spitfires on June 1st, 1942. During the Dieppe operations, Spitfires had shot down another Typhoon in mistake for an Fw 190, and when a formation caught a flight of Fw 190s at a disadvantage and descended out of the sun on to them, the Typhoons broke their tails off in pulling out of their dive ... A No. 609 Squadron Typhoon was hit by anti-aircraft fire on the last day of October. By that time two measures had been tried. First the whole nose of the Typhoon was painted white, but this could be confused with yellow noses of certain Fw 190s. Then it was decided to paint yellow bands around the wings in precisely the same way as the Mustangs, but pilots on sweeps reported that this compromised camouflage from above, when it was identification from below that was the most in question. As a result the black one-foot wide strips under the white fuselage centre-section at two-foot intervals, peculiar to Typhoons and later Tempests, were introduced from November 19th, 1942. Occasioned by bitter experience, mainly at Dieppe, these were often referred to as 'Dieppe markings'. At first the spinner was painted duck egg blue forward of the blades, but from January 21st, 1943, it was painted white in its entirety as a production expedient..." See p.159, Nowarra, Heinz. The Focke-Wulf 190: A Famous German Fighter (Fallbrook, CA: Aero Publishers, 1965).

* * *

After the USAAF deployed P-47 Thunderbolts to the U.K., they were also mistaken for Focke Wulfs. Some initial reactions were found in the diary of LeRoy Gover, who flew Spitfires with 66 & 133 Squadrons, RAF before he transferred to the 4th Fighter Group, USAAF:

February 21st 1943
"...My P-47 is being painted white on the nose and tail today, so those bastards won't shoot at us. About four of us have been shot at now by Spits, Typhoons and ground defenses because they think we look like FW-190s. I hope it works, because we have enough trouble with the Jerries having to worry about our own guys..."

March 9th, 1943
"...We were fired on by our own coast guns on way home. I guess the white stripes don't work very well...".

See p.155-159, Caine, Philip. Spitfires, Thunderbolts, and Warm Beer: An American Fighter Pilot over Europe (Washington, DC: Brassey's, 1995).

* * *

Although it may have been helpful to some extent, the white paint added to USAAF and RAF fighters to aid identification was a subtle change and certainly did not prevent mistakes. Colonel Hubert Zemke described the unfortunate results of the first bomber support mission carried out by his 56th Fighter Group, in May 1943:

"...On 4th May when Fortresses were sent to bomb a factory at Antwerp, the 56th was briefed to meet them as they left the target. My radio again failed, just before the Group reached the Dutch coast. Incensed, I handed over to McCollom and turned for home. This was my second forced turnback for equipment failure and I was concerned that some of the men might view this as the excuse of the faint-hearted. As I turned back for Horsham St. Faith to vent my wrath on the radio mechanics, I thought I saw a parachute far below. Only later did I connect this with what happened on this mission. The bombers were seen shortly after crossing the enemy coast and the group turned to cover them. Near Walcheren Island some FW 190s were reported making passes at the leading bombers as McCollom led his flight down to attack. Mac lined up behind one fighter and opened fire. As pieces flew off his victim and it spun down it was clearly seen to be a Spitfire! Back at Horsham St. Faith I listened to the debriefing and the confused and contradictory nature of individual pilots' reports. It was clear that some people were not only mistaking FW 190s for Spitfires but P-47s for FW 190s. Reports of Spitfires with 'solid yellow tails' could also be discounted. Excitement, speed of closure, sun glare and restricted vision through the cockpit canopy all contributed to mistaken observations; a situation confronting all fighter pilots but in this case exacerbated by inexperience. The RAF and 'Ajax' were, understandably, far from pleased with the 56th's performance, although our errant group could rightly plead that it had not been briefed for Spitfires in that area. For me this was particularly galling for as group commander I was ultimately responsible and had to meet General Hunter's summons to explain. For all our endeavors there was no hiding the fact that the 56th's bad score to date; two 'friendly' aircraft shot down and two P-47s lost, was certainly not a creditable showing..."

See p.76, Freeman, Roger. Zemke's Wolf Pack: The Story of Hub Zemke and the 56th Fighter Group in the skies over Europe (New York: Crown Publishers, 1989).

Brian
12th November 2005, 07:06
Phew! My continued thanks, Six Nifty - I think you should be writing this book, not me! My research/writing has not reached this stage, so I am doubly grateful for your efforts. I have an insatiable appetite, so keep it coming!

Cheers
Brian

Franek Grabowski
12th November 2005, 14:26
Brian
I will not tell you that my friend took part in the 4 May 1943 scrap and had a long recognition dog fight with a Thunderbolt. I certainly will not mention, that he took part in escort of Typhoons whipping out a British destroyer. Oh, and a photo of Dubielecki standing by wing of his Spitfire shot up by Thunderbolts on the above date does not exist.
Feel better now?

Brian
12th November 2005, 14:37
Hi Franek

Don't tease me! Tell me more!

Cheers
Brian

Turbofahrer
12th November 2005, 17:14
There is also something called Battle of Barking creek.

The first Spitfire air kill over England.

6.Sep 1939 - Two 74.Sqn Spitfires shot down two 56.Sqn Hurricanes


http://www.removablemedia.com/northweald/battleof1.htm
or
http://www.airsceneuk.org.uk/wattisham/56sq/56sq.htm

/Jan

Franek Grabowski
12th November 2005, 21:55
Brian
You seem obviously dissapointed with so many entries, you have not found. I just do not want to make you more sad than you are.
I have just been speaking with a pilot who had an engagement with Yaks over Austro-Italian border. Lost two of them in a clouded valley.
Cheers
PS There is a turn for 1942.

RodM
13th November 2005, 02:07
Hi Brian,

the following JPEG is a list of most of the RAF Bomber Command night losses (both missing and a/c written off), between 1st Jan-17th Mar 1945, that have been attributed in one way or another to "friendly fire". NEA = "Not Due to Enemy Action", a term used in official RAF records. Some of the losses have disputed causes depending on the source used.

Brian
13th November 2005, 21:01
Hi Franek, Turbo and Rod

Super stuff - no, Franek, not disappointed - delighted!

Cheers
Brian

Brian
15th November 2005, 20:36
Hi guys

One of my earlier requests concerned a USAAF 'light' aircraft that crashed at Le Mans having been hit by friendly fire on 22/8/44, with two or three deaths.

Could this in fact have been UC-61 43-14844 of the 27thFG that crashed on 23/8/44? I believe MACR 8340 covers this incident but I do not have any of these reports.

Cheers
Brian

Brian
15th November 2005, 20:58
Hi guys

I hope one of our French experts may be able to help me with this query:

On 5/8/44 a Boston of 342 Sqn crashed at Perrieres near Falise after being hit by flak. An article in ICARE No.92 (pages 122-124) implies that a Mosquito strafed the wreck, either deliberately or in error for a German machine. The French crew (Pierre, Cornement, Dumont and Ricardou) were, I believe, killed.
Can anyone help even perhaps with a translation?

Cheers
Brian

Six Nifty .50s
16th November 2005, 02:01
Hi guys

One of my earlier requests concerned a USAAF 'light' aircraft that crashed at Le Mans having been hit by friendly fire on 22/8/44, with two or three deaths.

Could this in fact have been UC-61 43-14844 of the 27thFG that crashed on 23/8/44? I believe MACR 8340 covers this incident but I do not have any of these reports.

Cheers
Brian

Don't know about that one, but flying in a small, slow-moving plane over the front lines took a lot of courage. And there were dangers other than roving fighters and antiaircraft batteries. U.S. Army forward observers flew in light aircraft and often in close proximity of friendly artillery barrages. The trajectories of field guns varied widely and saturated the entire airspace covered by artillery spotters, so there was no alternative but to accept the risk. The expanded use of radar sensitive proximity fuses by artillery units further increased the hazards to low flying aircraft...

July 1943
During the fighting in Sicily, a US Army L-4 Cub was shot down by an 155mm ‘Long Tom’ artillery shell that hit the aircraft while in flight; the only round fired by the gun that day. See p.73, Wakefield, Ken and Wesley Kyle. The Fighting Grasshoppers: US Liaison Aircraft Operations in Europe, 1942-1945 (Stillwater, MN: Specialty Press, 1990).

June 1944
U.S. Army L-4 Cub was shot down by an 81mm mortar shell that inadvertantly struck the aircraft while in flight near the Normandy beaches. Crewed by Lts. McNage and Wood from the 87th Armored Field Artillery Battalion. In July 1944, two more observation aircraft were lost under similar circumstances. See p.71, Wakefield, Ken and Wesley Kyle. The Fighting Grasshoppers: US Liaison Aircraft Operations in Europe, 1942-1945 (Stillwater, MN: Specialty Press, 1990).

November 1944
U.S. Army L-4 Cub from the 202nd Armored Field Artillery Battalion was shot down by a shell (fired by own unit) that hit the aircraft while in flight near Baccarat. Lt. Allan Hathaway was killed. See p.97, Wakefield, Ken and Wesley Kyle. The Fighting Grasshoppers: US Liaison Aircraft Operations in Europe, 1942-1945 (Stillwater, MN: Specialty Press, 1990).

March 1945
US Army artillery observers Lts. Bernhardt and Barrow of the 87th Infantry Division were killed when their L-4 Piper Cub was hit by an outbound artillery shell near Limburg. Also, S/Sgt. Thomas K. Turner and Lt. Leroy C. Stevens of 58th Armored Field Artillery Battalion were forced down when their L-4 was hit by an artillery round near Stolberg. See p.136, Wakefield, Ken and Wesley Kyle. The Fighting Grasshoppers: US Liaison Aircraft Operations in Europe, 1942-1945 (Stillwater, MN: Specialty Press, 1990).

1945 (precise date unknown)
L-4 Piper Cub flown by Capt. Francis P. Farrel (Air Officer 3rd Armored Division Artillery) was shot down and killed by American AA fire over Stolberg, Germany. See p.97, Division Committee. Spearhead in the West, 1941-45: The Third Armored Division (Frankfurt am Main-Schwanheim: F.J. Henrich, 1945).

Pictured below is Lt. General George S. Patton sitting in the backseat of an L-5, similar to the aircraft he was aboard when attacked by an RAF Spitfire in April 1945. Click on the photo to enlarge.

286

Laurent Rizzotti
16th November 2005, 12:05
To help with the last post and try to find the precise dates:

According to the American Battle Monuments Commssion:

_ 2nd Lt Charles H. Wodd, Jr., 87th Armored Field Artillery Battalion, was killed on 27 June 1944 and rests in Normandy American Cemetery, St. Laurent-sur-Mer, France.

_ 1st Lt Godfrey H. Bernhardt and 1st Lt Douglas D. Barrow, 336th Field Artillery Battalion, 87th Infantry Division, were killed on 28 March 1945 and rest in Lorraine American Cemetery, St. Avold, France

_ Capt. Francis P. Farrel, Division Artillery, 3rd Armored Division, was killed on 10 December 1944 and is buried in Henri-Chapelle American Cemetery, Henri-Chapelle, Belgium.

Brian
16th November 2005, 12:53
Thanks Six Nifty and Laurent - more useful details.

Cheers
Brian

BABIN
16th November 2005, 18:29
Hi guys

I hope one of our French experts may be able to help me with this query:

On 5/8/44 a Boston of 342 Sqn crashed at Perrieres near Falise after being hit by flak. An article in ICARE No.92 (pages 122-124) implies that a Mosquito strafed the wreck, either deliberately or in error for a German machine. The French crew (Pierre, Cornement, Dumont and Ricardou) were, I believe, killed.
Can anyone help even perhaps with a translation?

Cheers
Brian


Hello Brian,

Regarding the fate of the crew of this Boston (which was part of the "Lorraine" French Sqdn) :

- S/C Louis RICARDOU (gunner) : killed in the crash
- S/C Hubert CORNEMENT (navigator) : badly wounded in the crash ; lying on the ground, close to the wreck, he was murdered by the SS (probably SS from the 12nd Hitlerjungend) on the morning of 5th of August
- Adj. François DUMONT (W/O) : only groggy in the crash, but slightly wounded on 5th of August ... by the straffing of a Mosquito on the wreck ; he could join the American lines on 17th of August.
- S/C Pierre PIERRE (pilot) : seriously wounded in the crash, he could join the American lines on 15th of August.

I extracted this info from the French magazine "ICARE" n° 176.

Au revoir

Pierre

Brian
16th November 2005, 21:29
Many thanks Pierre

I wonder why the Mosquito strafed the wreck, and which unit it was from?

Cheers
Brian

Six Nifty .50s
17th November 2005, 02:10
A new one for me:

April 1945
RAF Mosquito (85 Squadron) damaged by RAF Lancaster:

"... It is perhaps appropriate that the last nighfighter pilot to become an ace belonged to one of the longest serving and most successful nightfighting units of them all. No 85 Sqn's H B Thomas had scored his first victory in October 1943, and he finally claimed his fifth victim on 8 April 1945 when he downed a Ju 88 west of Lutzendorf ... Hugh Thomas was shot down by an enemy nightfighter five days later after one engine of his Mosquito had been knocked out in error by a Lancaster gunner. Baling out, he became a PoW, but sadly his navigator, Flg Off C B Hamilton, landed in the sea and was lost ..."

See p.74-75, Thomas, Andrew. Mosquito Aces of WW2 (Oxford, UK: Osprey Publishing, 2005).


By the way, last time I forgot to ask if you know who shot down Spitfire AB806 on July 1st, 1942.

Six Nifty .50s
17th November 2005, 02:19
A few more personal remembrances from those at the sharp end...


29 August 1944
Bf 109G of JG 302 was shot down by a German fighter from the same unit:

"... Once again I was in the first wave, and again the B-17s opened fire very early ... my first burst was directed at the tail gunner: he had the widest field of fire to the rear and was the greatest threat to me ... Although I had not yet completed my attack and my rounds were dead on target, tracers from the man behind me were passing close to my Bf 109. Then the inevitable happened: there were several hard blows in the rear of my machine. I had been hit by one of my own people and I knew that I had to go down ... my tail surfaces had been badly damaged. The aircraft was extremely nose heavy ... My forced-landing took place near Ungarisch-Brod in the Banor area of Moravia. I never did discover the identity of the impatient comrade whom I had to thank for the subsequent train ride ..."
Willi Reschke
I. Gruppe/JG 302


2 March 1945
Now flying Ta 152H fighters with the high-altitude Staffel of JG 301, the same pilot recounts how they were misidentified and attacked by Bf 109s from his own outfit:

"... On this day the newly formed IV./JG 301 flew its first major mission against enemy bombers as part of the Geschwader. Equipped with the Bf 109 G-10, those Staffeln initially caused some confusion. III. Gruppe ... put a mixed group of fighters in the air, twelve Ta 152s and about the same number of Fw 190 A-8s and A-9s. The Ta 152s, which were led by Oberleutnant Stahl, climbed to altitude very quickly and flew far above the rest of the formation ... flying at a height of over 8,000 meters, and there they encountered a formation of Bf 109s. The pilots of the Ta 152s were certainly not upset by this unexpected reinforcement, especially as the aircraft wore the same yellow and red fuselage band.
But seconds later we could not believe our eyes: the group of Bf 109s opened up on us and the first tracers flashed by. Unteroffizier Blum was the first to be attacked, and his immediate warning made us realize the situation we were suddenly in. There was immediate confusion and the radio traffic that followed did nothing to change the situation. The leader of the Ta 152 Staffel received the order to 'Climb up and stay with the formation!' But even this did no good, for the Geschwader's own Bf 109s continued to pursue and attack. It was not possible to determine whether it was just Bf 109s of our own unit that were chasing us or if there were also fighters from other units. The Ta 152 pilots found themselves in a situation which words can scarcely describe: we were all fleeing from our own comrades, whom we did not want to shoot down. Many came to realize just how small and pitiful one feels when he is unable to defend himself. The Ta 152s were thus scattered to the four winds by our own fighters and took no further part in the mission ... "
Willi Reschke
III. Gruppe/JG 301

See p.146-147, 228-230, Reschke, Willi. Jagdgeschwader 301/302 "Wilde Sau" (Atglen, PA: Schiffer Books, 2005).


* * *

18 September 1940
RAF Spitfire R6772 was shot down by a Spitfire over Canterbury:

"... I'm quite sure it was another Spitfire that did me in. Because I saw this other aircraft and I turned to display my wing plan, which is the obvious one because the 109s had straight-edged wings cut off at the tips and the Spitfire had this elliptical wing, so that it was an instant recognition for him. So I let him see it. But it was too late and he shot off his bolt, and it hit me in the petrol tank. The only thing to be done was get out of the barbecue as quickly as possible. The flames were coming out and sort of burning off my uniform, and a bit of me in the process. And the next thing I knew I was floating down through the air without an aircraft ..."
Iain Hutchinson
222 Squadron, RAF

See video interview from the television documentary series Spitfire Ace (2000).


* * *

15 October 1940
RAF Spitfire X4418 was shot down by a Spitfire over Maidstone:

"... I was shot down at the end of a battle -- and by a Spitfire! This actually happened quite often -- a Spitfire shooting down a Spitfire. With inexperienced chaps and the sky full of planes, there wasn't all that much difference between our fighters and theirs at certain angles. We camouflaged the planes at first, trying to make the wretched things invisible, but then our own anti-aircraft guns used to go for us, so we gave them a more spectacular underside. The incident in question happened over Maidstone on October 15, 1940. There had been an engagement and I was gliding back to Biggin Hill after using up all my ammunition ... I throttled back at about 25,000 feet. There was nothing in the sky except three Spitfires behind me. Then suddenly -- bang! The aeroplane was full of holes. I was bloody indignant I can tell you. All at once I realised, 'Christ! I've got to bail out!' I had a bullet through one leg and my controls had gone. I had to get out!
As I was parachuting down I remembered that I was wearing a German Mae West! It was one that had been taken from a crashed plane -- they were a sight more comfortable than ours. At that I began to get very worried. There I was dangling on my parachute going down outside Maidstone, and I could see a crowd gathering below. What if someone decided to take a shot at me, I thought! I believe there were instructions then to the Home Guard on how to deal with parachutists -- apparently some of the Germans were coming down disguised as nuns! So one instruction said, 'In order to ascertain sex of the parachutist, put hand up up skirt.' Those were certainly desperate times! Anyhow, I landed safely, and the crowd soon realised from my language that I was English. In fact, as I said, it was by no means uncommon to be shot down by your own planes. I could name you a half dozen who were -- the commander of Biggin Hill for one. And another chap I know of was deliberately shot down and killed by his own squadron. They didn't like him, apparently ..."
Brian Kingcombe
92 Squadron, RAF

See p.72-74, Haining, Peter, ed. The Spitfire Log: A 50th Anniversary Tribute to the World's Most Famous Fighter Plane (London: Souvenir Press Ltd., 1985).


* * *

May 1941
RAF Blenheims and FAA Fulmars were attacked by British Navy AA fire:

"... On Crete, we spent most of our time escorting convoys -- and I think I am right in saying that we never lost a ship. Escorting the Navy with fighter Blenheims was not funny, we looked too much like Ju88s. Despite approaching the convoy into the sun, line astern, undercarriage down, at 1,000 feet ahead of the convoy, furiously firing off the colour of the day, they still plastered us. And the sight of a cruiser such as HMS Carlisle letting rip with all its guns was not a pretty sight if you were on the wrong side of the barrel. It became quite dangerous ... we had one more go when the Fleet Air Arm, who had a couple of Fulmars there, said they would lead us out to a big convoy which had eight destroyers as escort, saying, "They never shoot at us". They did, and the Fulmars high-tailed it for home and were never seen again. In another incident, Flt Sgt Innes-Smith, flying a Blenheim, having established his identity with the convoy he was protecting, was turning to intercept an oncoming Dornier Do 17 onto which he had been 'vectored'. As he was closing to attack he was hit and nearly shot down by RN AA fire. Fortunately he just managed to crash-land back at Maleme! ..."
John Jarvis
30 Squadron, RAF

See p.60, Forty, George. Battle of Crete (London: Ian Allan Publishers, 2001).


* * *

September 1943
USAAF A-36 fighter-bombers were attacked by British Navy AA fire and FAA Seafires during the Salerno landings; U.S. ground troops attacked by their own fighters:

" ... We took off from our landing ground at San Antonio, Sicily, at first light on 9 September 1943. Our assignment was to fly the Salerno-Agripoli patrol line as soon as we reached the beachhead. We proceeded to the north end of Salerno and then turned south ... About this time the sky turned white beneath me. The British Navy had fired a barrage of 40mm guns at us. At this time, Buzzy Sheftel, the controller on duty aboard the aircraft control ship, called me and said that our ships were firing at us. I replied to Buzzy that I knew that and that I thought I would move over and fly where the Germans were because the shooting was not as intense over there! ...
We had suspected that the British would be 'trigger happy'. During the Battle of Britain, the square wing tipped airplanes were the Me 109s and the round tipped airplanes were the Spitfires and Hurricanes. That thought was ingrained into the minds of the British. In 1943, the Me 109F and -G had round wing tips, the A-36A had square wing tips. Prior to the invasion of Salerno, we had sent an A-36 to Malta for the British to see. We had hoped they would realise that square wing tips were on our side now. We found out that it was the British Navy's policy to shoot at all airplanes that flew overhead. We did not receive an order or letter to that effect; we found out by getting shot at! We learned quickly...
Some British carriers were providing Seafire aircraft for the patrol line between Salerno and Capri. They lasted about a week! Word was that they damaged all of their aircraft trying to land on the carriers. They spent most of their time when they were aloft, attacking the other Allied aircraft which were also on patrol. At first, we took evasive action. Later, because of their vague idea of what constituted a 'curve of pursuit', we did not pay much attention to them. We figured that they needed the practice but they never seemed to get themselves into a position where they could do damage to another aircraft! ...
As for getting shot at by the Royal Navy, we got shot at as often by our own troops and we shot and dropped bombs on our own troops quite often. One day in the spring of 1944, we got a message from our higher Headquarters. It pointed out that there had been thirteen instances in one day where our airplanes had shot at or dropped bombs on our own troops. The next person who did it would face a court-martial. The following day, there were fourteen instances where we shot up our own troops!
The outcome of our getting shot at by the Royal Navy was that we were ordered not to attack a ship at sea in the Mediterranean. During the winter and spring of 1943-44 the Germans ran small boats and Siebel Ferries up and down the west coast of Italy. The Navy did not attack them and we did not give a damn whether they did or not, because we just bombed them when they reached a port ... "
Joseph Kelly
27th Fighter Bomber Group, USAAF

See p.121-123, Smith, Peter. Straight Down! The North American A-36 Dive-Bomber in Action (Manchester, UK: Crécy, 2000).

Brian
18th November 2005, 13:37
Gor Blimey!

Super stuff, Six Nifty.

May I ask you to e-mail me: briancull@author.freeserve.co.uk

Cheers
Brian

Six Nifty .50s
19th November 2005, 00:33
E-mail on the way.

p.s. My previous post has been slightly edited, for anyone who wants the latest version. A few comments were added that I had forgotten in my haste.

Brian
20th November 2005, 21:14
Hi guys

More information has come to light regarding the friendly fire incidents that occurred on 21 December 1943 near the Somme Estuary, when two Typhoons of 609 Squadron and a Spitfire of 501 Squadron were lost to US fighters. It appears that 78thFG claimed three FW190s and a Bf109 in the same area and at the same time. Can anyone provide details of the 78thFG claims?

Cheers
Brian

David Pausey
22nd November 2005, 17:54
Hi Brian

Is the 21-12-43 the right date ? I have no 78th FG claims for this date!
Cheers
David

Brian
22nd November 2005, 18:38
Hi David

Correct date. Perhaps the claims were not allowed when the facts became known? But there should be details somewhere, or was it a complete cover up?

Cheers
Brian

Franek Grabowski
22nd November 2005, 19:05
David, they are in daily claims and casualties log. I presume that is what has been claimed until it was realised what they actually had shot down. I suppose some details must be somewhere but I am not sure where to look.
Cheers

Laurent Rizzotti
22nd November 2005, 19:46
I think it is an usual practice for most air forces to "forget" claims known to have been friendly planes shot down in error, so it don't surprise me that the claim list of 78th FG shows nothing for this day. But the actual mission report should say more.

Six Nifty .50s
22nd November 2005, 20:03
Hi Brian

Is the 21-12-43 the right date ? I have no 78th FG claims for this date!
Cheers
David


" ... December 21, 1943 was a black day for the 78th because through poor aircraft recognition four RAF Typhoons were shot down by mistake in a bounce during a B-26 area support near Doullens, France. It should also be stated that in the same fight, RAF Spitfires also shot down one of their own Typhoons, making five in all lost to faulty identification. After three days of investigation, the pertinent intelligence officers were disciplined and the four pilots involved were transferred from the Group ... "

" ... Combat was not always necessarily with the enemy. On July 5th, [1944] Jack Miller, 83rd Squadron, had to abort the mission over France when his P-47 developed failing oil pressure. He got separated from his escorting wingman in the clouds over the Seine Bay just before several British Spitfires bounced him and shot his P-47 out from under him, causing an immediate bailout into the Channel. Later he was picked by an Allied beach patrol and flown back to Duxford from a beachhead strip. Other than some mental upset and physical exhaustion, he was unharmed ... "


See p.43-44, and p.70, Fry, Garry. The Eagles of Duxford: The 78th Fighter Group in World War II (St. Paul, MN: Phalanx Publishing, 1991).

Six Nifty .50s
22nd November 2005, 20:15
David, they are in daily claims and casualties log. I presume that is what has been claimed until it was realised what they actually had shot down. I suppose some details must be somewhere but I am not sure where to look.
Cheers

This is off topic, just an F.Y.I.

I was looking through The Royal Air Force of World War Two: In Color and chanced upon a color photo of Squadron Leader Skalski's Spitfire EN459. The picture was made sometime after the aircraft crash-landed at Gabes with Flight Lieutenant Horbaczewski at the controls. The photo shows the Spitfire with wings and front cowl removed; the fuselage was propped up on a stand and a few mechanics appear to be working on the engine or perhaps removing it.

Franek Grabowski
22nd November 2005, 21:13
This is off topic, just an F.Y.I.
I was looking through The Royal Air Force of World War Two: In Color and chanced upon a color photo of Squadron Leader Skalski's Spitfire EN459. The picture was made sometime after the aircraft crash-landed at Gabes with Flight Lieutenant Horbaczewski at the controls. The photo shows the Spitfire with wings and front cowl removed; the fuselage was propped up on a stand and a few mechanics appear to be working on the engine or perhaps removing it.
Thanks for thinking of me. Actually, the photo held at IWM, is quite well known here. It was taken some time after Horbaczewski nursed the Spitfire back to own lines on 6 April 1943 and the aircraft seems to be put back together after some repairs. There are also some B&W photos taken at the time.
I am not sure if this is Freeman's book, if so, there is a colour photo of 309 Sqn Mustang taken at USAAF airfield and credited to the late Stan Wyglendowski. I think it was actually taken by a one of US correspondents and I would love to learn where to look for a better copy.
... December 21, 1943 was a black day for the 78th because through poor aircraft recognition four RAF Typhoons were shot down by mistake in a bounce during a B-26 area support near Doullens, France. It should also be stated that in the same fight, RAF Spitfires also shot down one of their own Typhoons, making five in all lost to faulty identification.
I am awared of two Typhoons downed and one damaged (With US pilot at the controls!) of 609 Sqn and a single downed Spitfire of 501 Sqn. Another Typhoon was lost later that day due to malfunction. No information of any Typhoon downed by Spits.
Cheers

David Pausey
23rd November 2005, 20:12
Hi David

Correct date. Perhaps the claims were not allowed when the facts became known? But there should be details somewhere, or was it a complete cover up?

Cheers
Brian

Brian
I have looked at the 11 group ORB and the 78th F.G. claims are there but they give no pilot names. So would think you are right and they were not allowed. I have the report of the days missions 21-12-43 and 501 and 609 Sqns ORB, but I suppose you have these ? any way if you whant scans just let me know.
Cheers
David
PS I have no other details of the 78th FG BTW.

David Pausey
23rd November 2005, 20:16
David, they are in daily claims and casualties log. I presume that is what has been claimed until it was realised what they actually had shot down. I suppose some details must be somewhere but I am not sure where to look.
Cheers

All right Franek
Yes as allways you are right? I would think there may be a report of this in the U.S. or could it be at Kew ?
Cheers
David
BTW I have the info you whant, will send it soon.

Franek Grabowski
23rd November 2005, 21:15
I would think there may be a report of this in the U.S. or could it be at Kew ?
Theoretically at both places, as it was somewhat international incident. I suppose there is a file of correspondence between FC & 8 AF HQs or sth like that at Kew. There might be some sort of court of inquiry files but I would expect it somewhere in the US only.
BTW I have the info you whant, will send it soon.
Many thanks and looking forward!
Cheers

Six Nifty .50s
23rd November 2005, 23:22
Brian
I have looked at the 11 group ORB and the 78th F.G. claims are there but they give no pilot names. So would think you are right and they were not allowed. I have the report of the days missions 21-12-43 and 501 and 609 Sqns ORB, but I suppose you have these ? any way if you whant scans just let me know.
Cheers
David
PS I have no other details of the 78th FG BTW.

After studying this problem, I got the impression that claims were made for eight aircraft destroyed, of which four were rejected after the investigation. To my knowledge, the following was credited to the 78th Fighter Group on December 21st, 1943:

Lieutenant Charles W. Silsby, 84th FS. One FW-190.
Lieutenant William F. Hunt, 84th FS. One FW-190.
Lieutenant Gray H. Doyle, 84th FS. One FW-190.
Captain John D. Irvin, 84th FS. One ME-109.

Silsby was later promoted to Captain, and was KIA on April 15th, 1944, with the 84th FS. Hunt was later promoted to Captain, and was KIA on June 10th, 1944, with the 84th FS. Doyle was later promoted to Captain, and was KIA on September 5th, 1944, with HQ, 78th FG. Irvin was later promoted to Major, and moved to VIII Fighter Command on March 17th, 1944. I was not able to determine the names of the four pilots who were drummed out of the group as a result of the disaster on December 21st, 1943.

Perhaps Frank Olynyk has other information.

Six Nifty .50s
24th November 2005, 00:34
Speaking of bad days, I am seeking to fill in the blanks on incomplete data regarding September 14th, 1940. Can anyone sort this out and tell us who did all the shooting:

RAF Hurricane P3209. 73 Squadron. Shot down by a Spitfire and made forced-landing at Gravesend. Sergeant Leng was not injured. See Francis Mason / Battle Over Britain, p.385. Serial number from Francis Mason / The Hawker Hurricane, p.221, and Winston Ramsey / The Battle of Britain: Then and Now, p.448.

RAF Hurricane L2039. 73 Squadron. Shot down by a Spitfire near Tonbridge. Squadron Leader M. W. S. Robinson was injured bailing out. See Francis Mason / Battle Over Britain, p.385. Serial number from Winston Ramsey / The Battle of Britain: Then and Now, p.448, and Norman L. R. Franks / RAF Fighter Command Losses, vol. I, p.82.

RAF Hurricane; serial unknown. 73 Squadron. Shot down by a Spitfire near Maidstone. Sergeant J. J. Griffin bailed out without injuries. See Francis Mason / Battle Over Britain, p.385.

RAF Hurricane V7209. 73 Squadron. Damaged in attack by a Spitfire over Tilbury. Aircraft hit in the radiator and Flight Lieutenant M. L. ff Beytaugh made a forced landing at West Malling without injury. See Francis Mason / Battle Over Britain, p.385, and Winston Ramsey / The Battle of Britain: Then and Now, p.448.

RAF Hurricane L1981. 73 Squadron. Damaged in attack by a Spitfire. Pilot landed without injury, his name withheld. See Winston Ramsey / The Battle of Britain: Then and Now, p.448.

RAF Hurricane; serial unknown. 73 Squadron. Damaged in attack by a Spitfire. Pilot Officer R. A. Marchand landed without injury. See Francis Mason / Battle Over Britain, p.385.

Brian
24th November 2005, 08:48
Thanks David, Franek and Six Nifty for your responses - excellent, and surely we now have the identities of the four pilots involved.

Regarding your query re 73 Squadron on 14 September 1940, I have a note that the squadron responsible was probably 603. I have to invesigate further. This is what I have:

14 September was an unlucky day for 73 Squadron operating from Castle Camps, its Hurricanes having been attacked by Spitfires in error – possibly aircraft from 603 Squadron - over Tilbury just after 1600. Flt Lt Mike Beytagh force-landed V7209 at West Malling after his aircraft had been hit in the radiator, while Sgt Maurice Leng managed to force-land his damaged machine (P3209) at Gravesend. This was Leng’s second incident, having been shot down by ‘friendly fire’ the previous month. The Hurricanes flown by Flg Off Don Scott (L1981/TP-B) and Plt Off Roy Marchard (P2869) both returned to base with damage inflicted by the Spitfires, but Sgt John Brimble failed to return. It was believed that he had also been shot down by one of the Spitfires and his aircraft (P2543/TP-D) crashed at Parkhouse Farm, Chart Sutton near Maidstone. Bristol-born Brimble was killed. One of the few to escape the onslaught was Flg Off Smudger Smith, who reported that he had seen a Spitfire breaking away following an attack on a Hurricane, which fell away obviously damaged. Smith pursued the Spitfire down to 3,000 feet but could no catch up with it. On the same date, Flt Lt John Freeborn and his section from 74 Squadron scrambled and intercepted a Bf110, which was chased through cloud as the Spitfires manoeuvred to carry out individual attacks. In the confusion Plt Off Bob Spurdle (P7355) accidentally fired at Freeborn’s aircraft (P7366), inflicting slight damage only and Freeborn was not hurt.

You will note that the identities of those involved differ to your list, Six Nifty.

Cheers
Brian

Brian
24th November 2005, 09:30
Gentlemen!
Your combined expertise promptly provided answers to the 20/12/43 tragedy, so how about these:

9 August 1943: B-26 41-31634 555BS/386BG was shot down by an RAF Spitfire. Has anyone identities and fate of crew? Identity/squadron of Spitfire pilot? I have just 'discovered' that 1/Lt Dick A Tucker and his crew were killed.

3 December 1943: B-17 554BS damaged by friendly fire and 2/Lt John B. Kennedy was wounded. What type of friendly fire (apart from being unfriendly) and location of incident?

23 March 1944: Two P-47s attacked RAF launch HSL2706 in mistake for German E-boat off Dutch coast. Who were the pilots? What squadron/group?

Over to you, guys.

Cheers
Brian

Six Nifty .50s
24th November 2005, 12:44
Thanks Brian. Were you able to figure out why Francis Mason, Norman Franks, and Winston Ramsay all reported different results for the same day?


23 March 1944: Two P-47s attacked RAF launch HSL2706 in mistake for German E-boat off Dutch coast. Who were the pilots? What squadron/group?


On that date, Lieutenant James R. Cook and Flight Officer Shirley J. Green (360th FS) were said to have damaged an E-boat in the North Sea. See p.31, Miller, Kent. The 356th Fighter Group in World War II: In Action over Europe with the P-47 and P-51 (Atglen, PA: Schiffer Books, 2003).

Brian
24th November 2005, 13:14
Sorry Six Nifty - I am not privy to the workings of minds of great men!!

Thanks for the note re 360FS, Please note that I now have details of the crew and their fates regarding the B-26 downed on 9/8/43 - but not the identity of the RAF pilot responsibe.

Cheers
Brian

Laurent Rizzotti
24th November 2005, 15:51
9 August 1943: B-26 41-31634 555BS/386BG was shot down by an RAF Spitfire. Has anyone identities and fate of crew? Identity/squadron of Spitfire pilot? I have just 'discovered' that 1/Lt Dick A Tucker and his crew were killed.


Hi, Brian,

for this day I have the following six airmen of 555th BS who died this day:
Staff Sergeant Allen J. Crosswell, buried Netherlands
Second Lieutenant Patrick J. Kelly, MIA
Technical Sergeant John P. Ryan, MIA
First Lieutenant Paul E. Scharding, MIA
First Lieutenant Dick A. Tucker, MIA
Staff Sergeant Bernard T. Zukosky, MIA.
I don't know any more loss for 555th BS this day so these 6 men were probably the crew of this bomber. But I have no definitive proof.

Brian
24th November 2005, 21:48
Many thanks Laurent. I wonder who the Spitfire pilot was?

On 27/6/44 an L-4 of 87th Field Artillery was shot down - does anyone know identity and fate of crew. Also, two more L-4s were shot down in July 1944. Any details? I have found some more details: The L-4 shot down on 27/6/44 was flown by 2/Lts Robert R. McAnninch and Chales R. Wood Jr, both US Army, who were killed; on 31/7/44 L-4 was shot down although both Lt Robert C. Campbell and 2/Lt John T. Maguire, both US Army, survived unhurt; on 27/3/45 L-4 shot down although Lt Campbell and Lt John R. Berry survived. On all three occasions it is believed that the L-4s were hit by shells fired by 87th Field Artillery. Can anyone confirm these details, and also provide serial numbers of the L-4s? Did other US Army Artillery units that had L-4s attached lose aircraft in this manner?

On 6/10/44 the 335thFS/4thFG shot down a Me410 near Heligoland at 1100. Who was the claimant? PS: I now have this information!

Cheers
Brian

Six Nifty .50s
26th November 2005, 19:38
16/11/44 two Beaufighters of 211 Squadron were shot down by P-38s from 459thFS flown by 1/Lts Vern L. Flanders and Walter H. Patton. Two crew were killed in one machine, the pilot survived from the second machine but his navigator died of wounds.

I found some more details:

" ... One of the first operations [from Chiringa], flown by Pilot Officer Trigwell and his navigator, Pilot Officer Chippendale, leading Flight Sergeant McDowall and Sergeant Cooper, ended in most unusual circumstances. They had been briefed to attack road transport on the Taungup Pass, between Taungup and Prome. Without warning they were attacked over the target area by two USAAF Lockheed P-38 Lightnings. Neither Beaufighter survived the attack, although Trigwell, after hitting a mangrove tree, was able to crash land his aircraft in about four feet of water. Triggy was uninjured, but Chips was badly wounded in the back by cannon shells and was unable to move. With much difficulty, Triggy was able to get Chips out. He recovered what he could of the medical supplies, including a few tubes of morphine and, by cutting up a parachute he was able to bandage the eight perforations in his navigator's back. That night, he bought a boat, but either he was betrayed by the Burmese or the Japanese had been able to locate the crashed aircraft, for they were taken prisoner just after dark. Chips died four days later whilst they were being transferred from the mangrove swamps to Taungup, and Triggy finally arrived in Rangoon as a prisoner of war on Christmas Eve 1944 ...
Triggy's camp had 1300 prisoners, 600 of whom were British, American and Dutch, and the rest Chinese and Indian. On 25th April, five months after becoming a prisoner of war, he was one of 400 whom the Japanese selected to be dressed in Japanese clothing and then marched north from Rangoon. On the fifth day when they were north of Pegu, the senior Allied prisoner of war, Brigadier Hobbs, informed the group that the Japanese commandant had left a letter with him saying that they were being freed and that 'they would meet us on the battlefield later'. The prisoners were now on their own and had the job of making contact with the advancing 14th Army, and their main problem being that they were dressed in Japanese clothing.
Over the five previous days they had been subject to considerable harassment by way of bombings and cannon strafing by RAF Mosquitos but suffered no casualties. Eventually, when they reached suitable terrain, they made from their clothing a large Union Jack and a message: '400 BRITISH POWS HERE PLEASE DROP RADIO'. In due course, they decided that RAF aircraft had spotted the signs but, much to their surprise, they suddenly found themselves being attacked by three Hurricanes with bombs and machine-guns with one unfortunate killing, that of Brigadier Hobbs ... "

See p.106-107, Innes, David. Beaufighters Over Burma: No. 27 Squadron, RAF, 1942-45. Blandford Press, 1985.

Brian
29th November 2005, 09:20
Hi guys

I am not familiar with MACR reports. How does one go about obtaining a copy? I need to look at MACR 8340 which, I believe, covers the loss of a U-61 43-14844 (on 23/8/44) attached to the 27thFBG. Please advise me where to apply (by e-mail or letter?). Many thanks

Brian

Franek Grabowski
29th November 2005, 20:23
Brian
I will try to drop you a line later today or tomorrow in this regard.

Brian
30th November 2005, 18:11
Many thanks Franek - I have received the details.

Two more friendly fire incidents that I hope someone will be able to confirm and provide further details:

17/4/41 Ju88C (2123) R4+BM of 4/NJG2 believed shot down by Ju88C flown by Ltn Heinz Volkner of 3/NJG2 over UK

24/7/41 Ju88C (8054) R4+LM of 4/NJG2 believed shot down by Ju88C of I/NJG2 over UK

Cheers
Brian

sveahk
4th December 2005, 13:25
Hello,
Just finished Rick Atkinson’s „An Army at Dawn”, the war in North Africa, 1942-1943, where there are a few references to “friendly fire” from that time and area. I thought this one quite interesting:
“On the rare occasions when Allied planes dominated the skies, fratricide added to the ground troops’ torment. Word soon spread of an incident near Medjez-el-Bab, where a company of American tank destroyers was helping secure the town on thanksgiving morning (Thursday, November 26, 1942) when eleven U.S. P.38 Lightnings flew over. Jubilant at the unexpected help from friendly fighters, the tank destroyer crews raced across the open terrain, waving and smiling. Built with distinctive twin fuselages, the P.38s languidly circled until the sun was behind them, then dropped to fifty feet and executed five textbook strafing runs in three minutes.
The attack all but destroyed the shocked company, which fired not a single retaliatory shot. Five men were killed – including the unit’s only World War I veteran – and sixteen wounded; nearly every vehicle and antitank weapon was destroyed or damaged. One outraged company commander in the 1st Armored Division ordered his men to shoot any airborne object larger than a goose. And another bromide circulated among American soldiers: “if it flies, it dies”. Allied pilots grew so accustomed to being fired upon by their own troops that the formula for recognizing enemy aircraft from the ground, “WEFT” - check the Wings, Engines, Fuselage, Tails – was said to mean “Wrong every fucking time.”

Friendly greetings
Hans Krensler

Brian
4th December 2005, 18:43
Many thanks for the extract, Hans, much appreciated.

TonyK - thanks also for the offer. I have written to Maxwell and requested a copy of the MACR in which I am interested, so hopefully something may turn up soon! Thanks all the same.

Cheers
Brian

Brian
5th December 2005, 23:13
Hi

Another friendly fire incident has come my way:

On the night of 23/24 July 1944 a USAAF A-20J (43-9440) was shot down by a British or American aircraft and two crew killed. Has anyone further information, please?

Cheers
Brian

Tony Kambic
8th December 2005, 17:22
In today's Washington Post newspaper (12/8/05) is an Obituary for Lt. Gen. William Yarborough (92 years old) and it comments that he was a battilion commander who encountered one of war's grimmest task, friendly fire. During the invasion of Sicily on the night of July 10, 1943 at least 23 Air Transport planes (C-47s) loaded with airborne troops were shot down by US Navy ships and land AA fire who had been firing at retreating Lutftwaffe aircraft. I've done a little research and seen varying reports of up to 37 total Allied aircraft downed that night by friendly fire, with up to 400 troops as casaulties. Some of the previous posts in this thread do have an individual aircraft being taken down that night by friendly fire, but I've never heard of this many at once.

George Hopp
10th December 2005, 02:28
Well, remember that the Navy got the word that any a/c flying towards Sicily should be considered an Allied a/c. Any a/c flying out from Sicily was to be considered an enemy a/c. Or is what I repeated just an urban myth? It's hard to believe that anyone would issue such an order, but I have found that it's foolish to disregard even the most stupid-sounding stories.

George Hopp
10th December 2005, 03:01
Since all armies were notorious for their lousy a/c recognition, what faith can we put in the accuracy of the a/c mentioned in the excellent reports as given us by 6-nifty-fifties?

Brian
10th December 2005, 08:40
Hi TonyK

I believe Luftwaffe losses during Operation Bodeplatte must constitute the sad and tragic record. My assessment of losses during the Sicily campaign will appear in Volume Two of 'Blue-on-Blue in WWII' which will cover ME and FE incidents. However, please note thatVolume One is still being worked on, as you are undoubtedly aware! I would suggest offhand that your figures for losses re 10/7/43 (Sicily) are fairly accurate.

Cheers
Brian

Tundra
10th December 2005, 16:42
Futher to the inpuy from6 Nifty Fifties

January 1944
USAAF P-40 Warhawks accidentally strafed an RAF airfield near Trigno, Italy. Amount of damage and casualties if any were unspecified. See p.111, Bickers, Richard Townshend. Friendly Fire: Accidents in Battle from Ancient Greece to the Gulf War (London: Leo Cooper, 1994).


A quote from Robin Browns book on 112 Sqn RAF
Edited for clarity

On the 29th of April, 1944, Cutella airfield home to 112 Sqn was straffed by four USAAF P-47 Thunderbolts returning from an escort mission for Liberators and Fortresses bombing near Weiner Neustadh. Making landfall near Vasto the Americans, who were uncertain of their position, saw a Warhawk landing at Cutella. This machine carried a white spinner, unlike the normal red spinners of the RAF machines in the area at that time, and the Americans thought it was a Bf109, They came in line abreast, and opened fire. Three aircraft belonging to 260 and 450 Sqns were damaged and WO Roland C. Glew, DFM, of 293 Air-Sea Rescue Sqn detachment, was killed. Glew, who piloted a Walrus, was married and the father of three children, but what made this costly mistake particularly upsetting was that Glew had recently rescued a number of American aircrew who had ditched in the Adriatic, Later when the CO of the thunderbolt Group, which was based at Foggia, flew in to offer his apologies he was nearly lynched. All references to the incident where hushed up and personnel were forbidden tp write home about it and there is no mention of it in 112 Sqn records.


Others involving 112 Sqn aircraft

Kittyhawk Mk. I AK694/ GA Y, Sgt Cedric Don Young, 411490 RNZAF, 15/9/42, A/C shot down by own AA fire over point 878282, destroyed Homuth, pilot badly burned, 64th hospital stay did not return to 112 Sqn

31/10/40
Gladiator I, serial N/A,Plt Off Richard Alvin"Acky" Acworth (http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/commonwealth_acworth.htm),DFC, 40486 RAF, destroyed in collision in combat Mersa Matruh collided with E R Smith both had to bale out

Gladiator Mk I, 2/LT E R Smith SAAF, "C" Flight pilot, do not know his service number, A/C destroyed in combat collision Mersa Matruh collided with Acworth both baled out

Cheers Robert

Laurent Rizzotti
11th December 2005, 12:36
An interesting story:

Source : "Journal of combat missions page3.htm" B-17 96th BG
Extrait Mission No. 15 -- Emden, Germany December 11, 1943

On December 11, we made our second raid on the submarine base at Emden, my fifteenth mission, with more than 500 bombers participating. There was a very strong headwind as we left our home base. The group ahead lost three B-17s before we reached the French coast, and lost five more after that. We lost no ships from our group, although one crew was very thankful to be able to make it back home. One of our crews in the high squadron had a malfunctioning bomb rack which delayed release of its bombs. One of its bombs dropped onto the wing of an airplane under it, and stayed there. The pilot flew the plane gingerly enough that he was able to return to base safely with it on his wing. The following day, we were aroused at 12:30 AM for a mission somewhere, but fortunately the mission was scrubbed before we even reached the Operations shack. View related newspaper article

Source: http://www.chez.com/franckruffino/My-Site/Victory_19.htm

Someone also told me yesterday on a forum that the Japanese AA fire at Midway shot down in the morning two US aircraft and one A6M2 Zero, no other details.

Tundra
11th December 2005, 20:25
http://www.myisp.net.au/~aldrich/450/herrett.html


31st October 1942:
More escorting for "Baltimores" over the Fuka 'drome. Shots were exchanged with some ME109's but no damage was done to us. Twelve of our "Kitty's" did a long-range sweep after lunch. Ten returned.
"J" with Sergeant Reid aboard was attacked by two ME109's and went down in flames near Sollum. The two attackers fell to the guns of Flt Lt. Law and Sergeant Borthwick.
The CO [Flt Lt Williams] whilst straffing an enemy camp was accidently shot down by Sgt. Harrison. He crash landed in rough country and was seen to get out of his machine. The ground was too rough to effect an immediate rescue.
Ammo. dumps, tents, transport and railway sidings were straffed for the rest of the day. No.112 Squadron shot down eight enemy aircraft today - well done.

Six Nifty .50s
11th December 2005, 22:30
In today's Washington Post newspaper (12/8/05) is an Obituary for Lt. Gen. William Yarborough (92 years old) and it comments that he was a battilion commander who encountered one of war's grimmest task, friendly fire. During the invasion of Sicily on the night of July 10, 1943 at least 23 Air Transport planes (C-47s) loaded with airborne troops were shot down by US Navy ships and land AA fire who had been firing at retreating Lutftwaffe aircraft. I've done a little research and seen varying reports of up to 37 total Allied aircraft downed that night by friendly fire, with up to 400 troops as casaulties.

One of the most notorious friendly fire accidents of all time, but it could have been worse. It's my understanding that U.S. Navy ships did not do all the shooting from the seaward side; they were mixed together with other Allied ships that also opened fire on the C-47s.

However, '400 casualties' or anything close to that number is probably an exaggeration. Of the 23 transports known to be shot down in error, 17 transports were hit after they had dropped their paratroopers. One cause for inflated loss estimates is that the carrier planes (and the parachutists) were widely dispersed because of the AA fire. Many of the troops were initially reported missing, but turned up later.

Brian
15th December 2005, 20:56
Tundra, Six Fifty and Laurent - thanks for the latest. I'm gathering enough information to write a book!!!

Cheers
Brian

Tundra
15th December 2005, 21:02
http://www.myisp.net.au/~aldrich/450/herrett.html


31st October 1942:
More escorting for "Baltimores" over the Fuka 'drome. Shots were exchanged with some ME109's but no damage was done to us. Twelve of our "Kitty's" did a long-range sweep after lunch. Ten returned.
"J" with Sergeant Reid aboard was attacked by two ME109's and went down in flames near Sollum. The two attackers fell to the guns of Flt Lt. Law and Sergeant Borthwick.
The CO [Flt Lt Williams] whilst straffing an enemy camp was accidently shot down by Sgt. Harrison. He crash landed in rough country and was seen to get out of his machine. The ground was too rough to effect an immediate rescue.
Ammo. dumps, tents, transport and railway sidings were straffed for the rest of the day. No.112 Squadron shot down eight enemy aircraft today - well done.

40652 RNZAF Squadron Leader John Edwin Ashley Williams (http://www.awm.gov.au/units/people_1077919.asp), DFC, happened while serving with 450 Sqdn, he was a former member of 112 Sqdn RAF


Williams was born in Wellington on May 6 1919. He joined the RAF in January 1938 to take up a short service commission.
He is believed to have served with 601 Squadron before being posted to the Middle East, where he flew at different periods with 112, 94 and 260 Squadrons.
In June 1942 Wiliams joined 450 Squadron in the Western Desert as a flight commander. On the 18th, leading his flight over Gambut, he shot down a Bf 109. On July 5 he destroyed a Ju 88.
Leading the squadron over the El Alamein positions on September 12 1942 Williams destroyed a Ju 87, probably a second and damaged a third. Later in the month, during a sortie against the enemy airfield at Daba, Williams shot down a Ju 88.
In October 1942 Williams was awarded the DFC and took command of the squadron. He led it during the Battle of El Alamein. On October 31 he made a forced landing behind German lines and was captured.
Williams was in Stalag Luft 3 camp at Sagan in Germany in March 1944. He took part in the Great Escape and was one of fifty men executed by the Gestapo on March 29. (One of 2 , 112 Sqn Pilots to have met that fate) 40652 S/L John E A Williams DFC, Australian, born 6-May-1919, 450 Sqdn, PoW 31-Oct-1942, recaptured near Reichenberg, murdered 29-Mar-1944 by Lux, cremated at Brux Gestapo Chief Dr Wilhelm Scharpwinkel was masquerading as a Lt Hagamann in the No 6 Hospital at Breslau when Frau Gerda Zembrodt, corroborated by Klaus Lonsky, saw Russian officers remove him at gunpoint. During the enquiry into the murders, the Russians refused to co-operate with the Allied investigation, although after much prodding they allowed Scharpwinkel to make a statement, in Moscow, during August and September 1946. Soon afterwards, Scharpwinkel disappeared and although reported dead by the Russians on 17-Oct-1947, was believed to have found a high position in the Soviet administration. He is almost certain to have died by now.
He and his associate Lux murdered Cross, Casey, Wiley, Leigh, Pohe and Hake. The next day Lux executed Humphries, McGill, Swain, Hall, Langford, Evans, Valenta, Kolanowski, Stewart and Birkland. The day after that, he executed Kiewnarski, Pawluk, Wernham and Skanzikas. On April 6th, Lux murdered Grisman, J E Williams, Milford, Street and McGarr. Long followed soon after. Lux is also believed to have killed Tobolski and Krol, who vanished in the same area as the others. Lux, with at least twenty-seven murders on his soul, died in the fighting around Breslau at the end of the war. Gunn, killed at Breslau, is likely to have been another of their victims

Credited with five victories, Williams also received a Mention in Dispatches.

shooshoobaby
18th December 2005, 18:49
I have details regarding Mosquito shot down by P - 51s on the August 6,44 Shuttle Mission. let me know if interestd.
Mike

Brian
18th December 2005, 22:22
Hi Mike

Yes please, I would like to know what you have. I note that a P-51 pilot from the 309th FS claimed a Me210 - and that this was possibly a Mosquito from 151 Squadron RAF. Any advance on this would be appreciated.

Thanks also, Tundra, for your lengthy contribution - much appreciated.

Cheers
Brian

Brian
19th December 2005, 00:33
Bob Collis

Please Contact Me Via This Website - I Can't Reply To Your Private Messages.

Brian

mhuxt
19th December 2005, 15:40
Hi Brian:

151 Squadron or 157 Squadron? In either case, do you have a date which I might match to a list of mossie losses?

Cheers,

Mark

Brian
22nd December 2005, 16:53
Hi Mark

I believe it was a 151 Squadron aircraft lost on 6 August 1944, but I haven't had chance to check the ORB yet. Any info you may have will be appreciated. Thanks.

May I take this opportunity to thank all of you wonderful guys who have so generously responded and contributed to my many requests for help - and to wish you all a Happy Christmas and Prosperous and Healthy New Year.

Cheers and bottoms up
Brian

shooshoobaby
22nd December 2005, 19:52
Brian- if you would E-mail me I have the whole story and mission report of
this incident. My Father, John C. Howell, was on this mission.
357th FG , 364th Sq. C5 - L " Shoo Shoo Baby"
Mike Howell
mhowell590@aol.com

mhuxt
25th December 2005, 06:35
Hi Brian:

There was a 151 Squadron loss that day, but as far as I can see, the crew were lost to flak while attacking rail targets, with this being witnessed by another 151 Squadron crew.

ORB is pretty much transcribed here:

http://www.151squadron.org.uk/

The 157 Sqn aircraft I was thinking of was lost on 9 September 1944 off Lowestoft, apparently to a 109, but I've not been able to find a matching claim. I thought it might have been a 51.

Perhaps you're thinking of the 107 Sqn incident on 28 March '44?

Cheers,

Mark

Brian
25th December 2005, 13:57
Hi Mark

You've made my Christmas with another incident unrecorded by me!! Do please understand that I am still researching this period and have no had time to devote to processing all squadrons ORBs etc at this stage, hence the many gaps in what was sadly a period of many misidentifications, as you are no doubt aware. Anyway, I haven't any information on the 157 Squadron Mosquito loss to a 109/P-51 for 9 September 1944, so would appreciate what you have uncovered, please. But do let the Christmas pud digest first!!

Re the 28 March shooting down of the 107 Squadron Mosquito - I believe the culprit may have been Lt Charles Anderson of 335th. Are you able to confirm this?

Thanks again for taking the time to help - have a good Christmas and New Year.

Brian

mhuxt
28th December 2005, 23:41
Hi Brian:

Urrrm, I don't want to put a damper on Xmas, but you should understand that the 157 Sqn / P-51 incident is pure speculation on my part.

Seems like a strange place and time for a 109 to be, couldn't find a matching claim, so I'm speculating it might have been a 51, nothing more.

I'm still trying to find details of an incident in which a P-61 attacked and shot down a Mosquito - do you know whether this was 28/29 September? Chris Shores has a 21 Sqn. Mosquito listed as "sdbAf" on this date - "shot down by Allied fire"?

Should have some other P-61 stuff around here somewhere if you like.

Cheers,

Mark

Brian
29th December 2005, 14:54
Hi Mark

Mosquito NT179 of 21 Sqn to which you refer was shot down by 219 Squadron Mosquito HK250 on 28/29 Sepetmber 1944.

I have had a quick check and have found that a P-61 attacked and damaged a 488 Squadron Mosquito on 26 June 1944, though Mossie was able to land safely. No idea which US crew was responsible. I also have note of two other Mossies that fell to Allied night fighters about which I lack detail, so either, neither or both may have been P-61 victims.

16/17 June 1944 Mosquito of 409 Squadron shot down and POW.
6/7 March 1945 Mosq MM237 of 105 Sqn - crew injured.

I hope to get to Kew next week and will have a look at 157 Squadron's ORB more more details of the Mossie loss on 8 September 1944. Thanks for the lead anyway.

Cheers
Happy New Year
Brian

Brian
30th December 2005, 16:09
Hi guys

Thought you'd like a break from all this serious research. Hope no one is offended!

Jed had been in the liquor business for 25 years. Finally, sick of the stress, he quit his job and bought 50 acres of land in Alaska as far from humanity as possible. He saw the postman once a week and got groceries once a month. Otherwise, it was total peace and quiet. After about six months of almost total isolation, someone knocked on his door. He opened it and a huge, bearded man was standing there.
"Name's Lars, your neighbor from forty miles up the road. Having a New Year's Eve party Friday night...thought you might like to come. About 5:00."
"Great", says Tom, "after six months out here I'm ready to meet some local folks. Thank you."
As Lars left, he stopped.
"Gotta warn you......be some drinkin'."
"Not a problem" says Tom. "After 25 years in the business, I can drink with the best of 'em."
Again, the big man started to leave and stopped.
"More 'n' likely gonna be some fightin', too."
"Well, I get along with people; I'll be all right. I'll be there Thanks again."
"More'n likely be some wild sex, too!"
"Now that's really not a problem," says Tom, warming to the idea "I've been all alone for six months! I'll definitely be there. By the way, what should I wear?"
"Don't much matter ..... Just gonna be the two of us ..."

.............

FINALLY ... a seasonal recipe:

1 cup of water 1 tsp baking soda 1 cup of sugar 1 tsp salt 1 cup or brown sugar 4 large eggs 1 cup nuts 2 cups of dried fruit 1 bottle Jose Cuervo Tequila.
Sample the Cuervo to check quality. Take a large bowl, check the Cuervo again, to be sure it is of the highest quality, pour one level cup and drink.

Turn on the electric mixer... Beat one cup of butter in a large fluffy bowl.

Add one teaspoon of sugar. Beat again. At this point it's best to make sure the Cuervo is still OK, try another cup..just in case.

Turn off the mixerer thingy. Break 2 leggs and add to the bowl and chuck in the cup of dried fruit, Pick the xxxx fruit off the floor..

Mix on the turner. If the fried druit gets stuck in the beaterers just pry it loose with a drewscriver. Sample the Cuervo to check for tonsisticity.

Next, sift two cups of salt, or something. Who giveshz a sheet. Check the Jose Cuervo. Now shift the lemon juice and strain your nuts.. Add one table. Add a spoon of sugar, or somefink. Whatever you can find. Greash the oven.

Turn the cake tin 360 degrees and try not to fall over. Don't forget to beat off the turner. Finally, throw the bowl through the window, finish the Cose Juervo and make sure to put the stove in the dishwasher.

Smile!
Brian

Brian
2nd January 2006, 20:25
Apologies to one and all. Seems like I should have put more water in my whisky! My attempt to brighten up the day seems to have been a miserable failure! Never mind, once bitten , twice shy.

Back to business: WHERE ARE YOU NIKITA? Did you receive my e-mail? WHERE ARE YOU SIX NIFTY? My e-mails to you were returned!

All the best for 2006

Brian

brewerjerry
2nd January 2006, 22:01
Hi
might be of interest

L9809 3 otu beaufort shot down 17-6-41 by 504Sq hurricane nr shute
R8811 266 sq typhoon damaged by spitfires, exeter & abandoned 17-4-43
v5568 1401flt blenheim shot down by whirlwind 137Sq 27-05-42
cheers
jerry

drgondog
3rd January 2006, 19:40
I am aware of two in the 355th FG. First was April 26, 1944. Bob Boulet in 354FS WR-E was hit by 'friendly' B-17's and forced to bail to become POW.

The second was September 18,1944 on the Frantic VII mission to drop supplies on Polish underground. Robert Peters was shot down and died of wounds by another 358FS pilot while Peters was shooting down an Bf 109G..

I haven't read through the rest of the thread but John Godfrey of 4th FG was shot down by another 4FG pilot shooting at same a/c on the ground.

Regards,

Bill Marshall

drgondog
3rd January 2006, 20:23
Brian - PS I do know which 358FS pilot shot down Robert Peters, but out of respect for his family and the survivors of Peter's family I choose not to reveal the name.

The story was pretty sad as the daughter of Peters in searching for the "why and how' discovered an eyewitness to subsequent events. Apparently Peters was mortally wounded but under full control of his YF-X and landed wheels down in a field. Polish farmers rushed to his smoking Mustang to provide assistance, but intercepted by German soldiers who formed a ring around the P-51 but made no effort to approach. Peters allegedly waved to the Polish farmers and after a couple of minutes slumped down in the cockpit and died... how would you like to get THAT letter.

Regards,

Bill Marshall

Franek Grabowski
4th January 2006, 00:58
Bill
Sorry, but I have read a little bit different story. The pilot who downed Peters visited the family just after the war and expressed his heartiest regret. Reputedly they apparently forget his name. A few years ago they were contacted by a man (Jerzy Boć?) who researched both 355 crashes in the area and I presume it was at the time they learned exact circumstances.
As yet I was unable to identify the German unit involved. A few years ago I have heard story of a German pilot visiting the crashsite in 1990s - I supose he downed Vigna. According to a one account a German pilot landed at a nearby airfield (likely Chrcynne near Nasielsk, now still in use for ultralights and skydiving) and rode to the crashsite.
Another US airman was murdered by Germans during the mission, this being one of the cremembers of B-17 We'll be seeing you which crashed at Dziekanów Leśny on Northern suburbs of Warsaw. This Fortress was claimed by JG51.

Ruy Horta
4th January 2006, 12:41
Apologies to one and all. Seems like I should have put more water in my whisky! My attempt to brighten up the day seems to have been a miserable failure! Never mind, once bitten , twice shy.

Back to business: WHERE ARE YOU NIKITA? Did you receive my e-mail? WHERE ARE YOU SIX NIFTY? My e-mails to you were returned!

All the best for 2006

Brian

Probably just missed during the happy season, no harm done by having a little fun!

Regards,

EDIT - Both jokes certainly made me laugh once I read them!

drgondog
4th January 2006, 19:41
I respect your difference of opinion but the only part of the story that will sustain a 'difference' is whether the story of the pilot on the ground was in fact left to die as described in the letter to Peters daughter. I read the letter and repeated as closely as I recall the facts.

As to the rest of the story - my father, Bert Marshall, led the 355th FG on that mission, a reinforced group of 4 Squadrons/64P-51's, some borrowed from 361st and 4th. He and Billy Hovde were very close friends. Hovde was leading Blue Flight of the 358FS and one of the pilots in his flight first came to him after Frantic VII and admitted shooting down Peters after a 109 shot down Vigna on Peters wing while Peters was shooting down another 109.

I was personally in this discussion more than once while growing up in a community of fighter pilots and reviewed the details once again for my book about the 355th with Billy - then decided not to include the data in the book.

Warm Regards,

Bill Marshall

This part is not debatable.

drgondog
4th January 2006, 19:57
some photos of Frantic VII

Franek Grabowski
5th January 2006, 11:36
Bill
I cannot agree or disagree, I have just read an article. If you like, I may put you in touch with people, who possibly know Mr Boć.
I understand your decision not to reveal the name, although a recent research indicates friendly-fire was nothing unordinary or even a quite common cause of losses.
Your Frantic photos are just stunning, breathless!

drgondog
6th January 2006, 01:40
Thanks Franek - I believe I read the letter (if Mr Boc is the author) to his daughter and may have a copy somewhere.. I sent quite a few photos to her (daughter) a couple of years ago and put her in touch with several 358FS pilots that flew with Peters.

Bill

Laurent Rizzotti
9th January 2006, 21:18
Some more cases, issued from the JG 54 loss list from the late Günther Rosipal:

9 January 1942
The Bf 109 F-2 WNr 12647 of 3./JG 54, flown by Gefr. Gustav Haubner, was shot down in error by German Flak and crashed near Krasnogwardeisk airfield, killing its pilot.

22 March 1943
Uffz. Josef Guth of 3./JG 54 was attacked in error by a Bf 109 of II./JG 54 in Russia (Pl. Qu. 9036) and bailed out wounded from his Fw 190 A-4 Wnr (14)5760.

14 May 1943
Oblt. Rudolf Klemm, an ace of 9./JG 54, claimed his 25th victory (a B-24 shot down at Rieseby, 8 km N Eckernförde) during the interception of an American raid on Kiel but his Bf 109 G-4 WNr 16144 10 + ^^ yellow was then shot down by his own Flak and destroyed at 100%. Klemm was wounded, blinding him in one eye. Despite this handicap, Klemm returned to combat duty some weeks later and survived the war with 42 victories.

12 November 1943
Luftflotte 6 dispatched all available aircraft, a total of 215 sorties, despite the poor weather conditions, to the Nevel area. The Russians had broken through and were heavily supporting the advance with ground-attack aircraft. This was to be Walter Nowotny's last combat mission on the Eastern front, and Uffz Karl Schnörrer of Stab I./JG 54 flew as his wingman. Nowotny attacked a Russian Il-2 Sturmovik ground-attack aircraft and shot it down for his 255th victory. A second Il-2 attacked Nowotny's Fw 190 but Schnörrer managed to bring down this Il-2 for his 35th, and last, victory with JG 54. Schnörrer's Fw 190 A-5 (W.Nr. 410 021 green 2) then received hits from another Il-2, or from German Flak according to another source. He baled out of his blazing Fw 190 at an altitude of no more than 50 to 70 meters. The parachute deployed only a few meters above the ground. German soldiers rescued the badly injured pilot, who had suffered broken legs and a skull fracture. Having recovered from his wounds, Leutnant Schnörrer was then assigned to Erprobungskommando 262 in June 1944, flying the Me 262 jet fighter.

31 January 1944
Fw Heinrich Brücher of JG 54 was killed by his own Flak at Towaschewo. No more details.

6 November 1944
FhjUffz. Günther Kurz of 12./JG 54 was killed when German Flak shot down in error his Fw 190 D-9 WNr 210012 (TS+SL, red 7+) over the airfield of Achmer.

Source:
JG 54 loss list, by Günther Rosipal (http://www.jg54greenhearts.com/LossList.htm)
http://www.luftwaffe.cz/klemm.html
http://www.luftwaffe.cz/schnorrer.html

alex crawford
9th January 2006, 22:20
Hi Brian,

Don't know if you have seen my post here

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=3657

I'm trying to find out the ID of the Gladiators involved in attacking and damaging a Seagull from HMAS Sydney.

Alex

George Hopp
12th January 2006, 02:06
Apologies to one and all. Seems like I should have put more water in my whisky! My attempt to brighten up the day seems to have been a miserable failure! Never mind, once bitten , twice shy.

I thought it was cute, so don't apologize. Everyone has to relax once in a while, so why not with good whisky and a riske joke.

And a Happy New Year to you Brian,
George

Six Nifty .50s
13th January 2006, 18:25
Apologies to one and all. Seems like I should have put more water in my whisky! My attempt to brighten up the day seems to have been a miserable failure! Never mind, once bitten , twice shy.

Back to business: WHERE ARE YOU NIKITA? Did you receive my e-mail? WHERE ARE YOU SIX NIFTY? My e-mails to you were returned!

All the best for 2006

Brian


Apologies for the late reply.

I've been busy and haven't read the message boards for a few weeks. My e-mail is active and seems to be functioning properly. If you still have problems reaching me through the Yahoo account, then please try the Private Messages feature in this forum.

Happy New Year!

Brian
3rd February 2006, 18:00
Hi everyone who has been contributing for the last three weeks or so!

As you may be aware I suffered a disastrous PC crash and now have a new machine. Fortunately, most of my files have been retrieved although I have lost some, particularly my updated Friendly Fire file! I am sure you all sympathise with me, apart from those wise guys who save their information on a daily basis. I intend to join those ranks but am a forgetful type!

I will now endeavour to catch of on the posts. In the meantime, thanks

Brian

Laurent Rizzotti
3rd February 2006, 20:44
Hi Brian, sorry for your crash. My advice will be to buy a big USB device to store 500 or 1000 Meg of data in it, so you can save daily without losing much time.

Brian
3rd February 2006, 21:44
Hi Laurent

Thanks for the advice. Please let me have your address to enable me to send the book (recent events have thrown my intentions askew!). Private mail if you so wish.

Cheers
Brian

Laurent Rizzotti
9th February 2006, 17:17
A new case:

7 October 1944

Allied aircraft strafed in error Montepetra, Italy, killing 10 civilians and 7 English soldiers.
Source:
http://www.criad.unibo.it/isr-forlicesena/storia/biografie.html (http://www.criad.unibo.it/isr-forlicesena/storia/biografie.html)

Brian
10th February 2006, 13:53
Many thanks Laurent, I am now doing a quick Italian language course so that I can read it!! Excuse sarcasm!

One of my previous enquiries concerned a P-38 shot down in error by airfield defences at A.2 ALG near Grand-Camp-les-Bains on the Normandy coast on 25 June 1944. This is recorded in Richard Turner's BIG FRIEND, LITTLE FRIEND. I haven't made much progress re the identity of the pilot or unit, but believe it would have been one of teh following. Does anyone have the relevant MACRs that could establish idenitity?

P-38s all from 370thFG are recorded as lost on this date:
42-104016 (MACR 6181)
42-67282 (MACR 6182)
42-67930 (MACR 6183)
42-67886 (MACR 6184)
42-4196 (MACR 6229)
42-68023 (MACR 6268)
42-67927 (MACR 6270)
Also, 367thFG lost 43-28702 (MACR 6350)
And, 82ndFG lost 43-28774 (MACR6429

If no one has the info I am looking for, perhaps by process of elimination, I will narrow down the enquiry.

Thanks in advance.

Brian

Laurent Rizzotti
10th February 2006, 17:48
If the P-38 was shot down above Allied territory, there will probably be no MACR.

The Italian link doesn't provide any more data than what I have translated. Sarcasm accepted.

Brian
16th February 2006, 09:21
Hi guys

Spotted on a website: On returning from a night raid on Harwich (Essex) on 20/21 November 1940, a BR20 of the 13 Stormo was allegedly shot down by a night fighter at 0045 on the morning of 21st, and crashed into the North Sea with the loss of all the crew. Presumably the crew had advised control they were under attack before their demise. I have no record of a corresponding RAF night fighter claim. Could the night fighter have been German? However, a scan of my records fails to reveal such a claim, but of course once the error had been realised any such claim would have been disallowed. Can anyone throw any light on this?

Cheers
Brian

Brian
16th February 2006, 22:05
More for you to ponder. Any further details available?

3 March 43: DB-7B AL496 343BS USAAF shot down by friendly fire Chelveston (pilot Henry K. MacDonald).

9 March 43: P-47 41-6263 63FS/56FG unauthorised flight by member of ground crew - crashed - identity? fate?

9 June 43: B-17 42-29884 352BS/92BG shot down by friendly fire Alconbury (pilot Lopez J. Mantoux)

7 November 43: B-26 41-31951 454BS/323BG shot down by friendly fire near Earls Colne (pilot Joe J. Patton)

7 June 44: B-26B 42-96110 599BS/397BG shot down by friendly fire and crash-landed Rye (pilot Edward W. Kretschmer)

16 August 44: B-24H 41-28981 457BG shot down by friendly fire over North Sea (pilot Charles W. Grace)
B-24H 42-50580 788BS/467BG shot down by friendly fire over North Sea (pilot William V. DeWitte)

27 December 44: P-61A 42-5584 425NFS shot down by friendly fire nr Jarny, France (Carl H. Byars)

Over to you guys

Thanks

Brian

shooshoobaby
17th February 2006, 19:35
Brian-
B17 # 42 - 29884 June 28 ,43 to Air Force Service Command
Re- gained July 8,43
Shot down Aug. 12,43 Pilot Hans Johnson 10 POW
Macr #374 92d BG

B - 24 # 128981 ditched North Sea March 4,45 Mid air collision
Pilot - Lt George Mills No MACR 467th BG

B - 24 # 42 - 50580 damaged Aug.16,44. Salvaged Sept. 21,44 467th BG
From: " Heavy Bombers of the Mighty 8th "
Cheers,
Mike

Brian
18th February 2006, 10:32
Hi Mike

That's strange! I extracted the details above from the ARMYAIRFORCES website, re Accidents Overseas section. Sommit bain't be right!

Brian

Laurent Rizzotti
18th February 2006, 10:50
Hi Brian,

The site you cite above is listing all accidents and incidents, most of the AC were not destroyed but only damaged. Only when it is indicated that the crew bailed out or the aircraft was destroyed can you be sure it was a total loss, in most other cases the AC was repaired later.

Brian
18th February 2006, 12:18
Thanks Laurent for the explanation. However, I would still appreciate any information re the incidents listed.

PS Have you received the book?

Cheers
Brian

Brian
19th February 2006, 20:36
Hi guys

To add to my earlier listing of apparent friendly fire incidents as noted on the 'ArmyAirforces' Accident Reports website:

23 Feb 1945: F-6 44-14602 lost to friendly fire (Donald G. Dowell); F-6 43-12409 lost to friendly fire (Wallace F. Mitchell baled out)

5 March 1945: B-24 42-100334 lost to friendly fire (pilot Ralph E. Reed) Clacton, Essex

15 March 1945: C-47A 42-92424 lost to friendly fire (pilot William F. Lange) Gravesend, Kent

17 March 1945: B-24 42-40163 lost to friendly fire (pilot Howard T. Worrall)

9 April 1945: B-17G 44-8798 ditched due to friendly fire (pilot Aliston Slade)

Again, any help will be much appreciated.

Cheers
Brian

Brian
20th February 2006, 10:31
Here's another! I did enquire if anyone knew the identity of a US P-51 pilot shot down in error by a Free French Spitfire pilot on 7 October 1944, presumably over Southern France. It seems that the following P-51 units lost aircraft on this date: 332FG (two), 20FG (three), 55FG (one), 359FG (one), 361 FG (one), 479FG (one), Is anyone able to narrow down the possible candidate?

Also, I am trying to establish the UK bases (Kent/Sussex) occupied by the following US fighter squadrons in June/July 1944: 326FS/362FG; 381FS/363FG, 365FS/358FG, 22FS/36FG (an aircraft type), 412FS/373FG - I know that you know what I don't know! Thanks

Brian

shooshoobaby
20th February 2006, 19:04
Brian -
B-17 # 48798 390th BG 569th Sq. CC - O
shot down , Friendly Fire , Ditched English Channel
Command Pilot - William Corcoran . Pilot - Alliston Slade
TG - Aurthur Trindle KIA , 8 RTD No MACR

B - 24 # 210034 93d BG 409th SQ. YM - O/K " Old Patches "
Shot down March 5, 45 NO MACR
Mike

JACK COOK
20th February 2006, 19:55
Having not looked throught every post on this thread I run the risk of duplication but I'll take my chances. Capt Jack Coonan 38th FS 55th FG shot down by his wingman Lt Amoss in Jan 45. There was a 78th FG P-47 shot down by error over England during a practive dogfight with the pilot killed. Lt Ernie Shipman of the 31st FG was shot down by a P-38J over Italy in 1944 and captured. Then there's the "Mad Gunner" who downed severed US aircraft before his shame led him to refuse to baleout when his B-17 was shot down.

Brian
20th February 2006, 20:21
Hi Mike - thanks for the latest.

Hi Jack - these are new to me, specially the 'Mad Gunner' - I don't know the story, please enlighten me. Thanks

Brian

shooshoobaby
20th February 2006, 20:26
Brian - your Welcome!
Mad Gunner is a true story , I think he was in the 100th BG or 385th BG.
Will look for it - Jack may know.
Mike

JACK COOK
20th February 2006, 20:41
The complete story of the mad gunner appeared in King's Cliffe remembered a few years back. Ernie Shipman was a good friend and wrote me the complete story of his shot down and capture about 15 typed pages. If you want I'll dig it out.Jack Coonan and I did some salmon fishing on his boat out of Newport before he had a fatal Heart Attack hauling in a big Chinnook. The date was around Jan 3 or 4, 1945 and he lead his flight on some AR-96s and was lining up on his 5th kill whewn Amoss thought he was a silver 109 and shot him in his coolent. Amoss later went down and they met at Stalag Luft 1 I believe.

Brian
20th February 2006, 21:25
Yes please, Jack, I would appreciate copies of Ernie Shipman's notes, particularly the shoot down. Where did 'King's Cliffe Remembered' appear - an article? Sorry to be so dumb.

And Mike, if you find anything on the 'Mad Gunner' I would also be grateful. Thanks as ever.

Brian

JACK COOK
20th February 2006, 21:52
The 78th FG P-47 pilot shot down and killed over England by a overly excited squadronmate was 2Lt Roy Wedell of the 83rd FS on March 13, 1944. I believe his P-47 was excavated in the early 90s but I've never heard the ID of the fellow who killed him.Ernie Shipman was shot down by a P-38J on July 31, 1944.I'm sorry but I don't remember the date of the particular issue of King's Cliffe Remembered with the Mad Gunner story. I'll look for it also.I have a lot of material on Coonan but getting clobbered by a friend wasn't a favorite war story of his.

shooshoobaby
21st February 2006, 00:57
Brian - I am not sure if the Mad Gunner shot anyone down. He would get delusional and shoot other b - 17s in formation, beleive he was a waist gunner - I know it is in a book I have - I'm on it!
Mike

Brian
21st February 2006, 10:45
Thanks again Mike and Jack, your help much appreciated. Look forward to more information.

Cheers
Brian

shooshoobaby
21st February 2006, 18:53
Brian - From " Combat Squadrons , USAF by Maurer- THE BIBLE of Squadrons.
1) 326th Sq.- 328th FG Home Defense USA 1942 - 1944 Disbanded 3/44
362d FG - Headcorn ,England 4/44 - 6/44. Ligneroller, France 7/44
2) 381st Sq. - Staplehurst, England 4/44 - 6/44. Maupertus, France 7/44
Redesignated 161st Tac Recon Sq. 8/44
363d FG - Redesignated Tac Recon Group 8/44
3) 365th Sq. - High Halden , England 4/44 - 6/44 .Cretteville, France 7/44
358th FG
4) 22d Sq. - Kingsnorth , England 4/44 - 7/44. Brucheville,France 8/44
36th FG Aircraft - P-47
5) 412th Sq. - Woodchurch , England 4/44-7/44.
373d FG Tour-En- Bassen ,France 7/44 - 8/44
Cheers,
Mike

Brian
21st February 2006, 19:28
Thanks a million Mike - that's cleared up a few minor queries. What type did the 365th fly at High Halden?

Cheers
Brian

shooshoobaby
21st February 2006, 19:48
Brian- 365th flew P - 47s
Mike

Boomerang
26th February 2006, 13:51
I have quickly scanned all posts so I don't think I am repeating previous entries (fingers crossed).

On 25 June 1942, Generaloberst Wolfram von Richthofen was on an inspection flight of German positions in Russia when his Storch was fired on by the German 387th Infantry Division, Richthofen's copilot was wounded and the aircraft made an emergency landing (reported in Joel Hayward's Stopped at Stalingrad, which cites Richthofen's diary as the primary source). This book also refers to an incident on 28 June 1942 when an advance company of the Grossdeutschland Division two kilometres east of the Tim River was bombed by Stukas - 16 killed, many wounded and much materiel destroyed. Unfortunately the Stuka unit is not mentioned - perhaps a question for forum members.

A couple of incidents from Focke-Wulf Fw 190 in North Africa, Arthy and Jessen:

Fw 190 A5 0152 538 from 6/JG 2 shot down on 3 March 1943 by a I/JG 53 Bf 109 while landing, pilot Fw Uberbacher KIA
Fw 190 A5 0142 515 from 11/SKG 10 shot down by sweeping II/JG 77 Bf 109s on 2 April 1943 while on a fighter bomber mission, pilot Uffz von Zareba KIAFinally, Don Caldwell's JG 26 War Diary Vol 2 reports Fw 190 D9 210 188 from 5/JG 26 being shot down by a III/JG 1 Bf109 on 24 Dec 1944, Lt Benz KIA. JG 26 War Diary also reports quite a number of incidents of JG 26 aircraft being shot down by German flak, but it's getting late here, so I'll leave it to others to pick these out!

Cheers

Brian
27th February 2006, 20:58
Many thanks Boomerang - some interesting details.

Cheers
Brian

Brian
30th March 2006, 21:27
Hi guys

Just to update one incident about which I enquired - on 22 August 1944 I note that a US light aircraft was allegedly shot down by Allied ground fire near Le Mans. I believed that it might have been a UC-61 attached to 27thFBG. I was wrong. In fact a UC-61A of 27ATG was lost 23 August 1944, but off Prestwick in Scotland. This aircraft (43-14844) crashed into the sea with the loss of the pilot 2/Lt Robert Smillie (0-2044996). I still do not know the identity of the aircraft lost at Le Mans.

Cheers
Brian

Andy Long
30th March 2006, 21:56
Group Captain Gerry Edge (then commanding 253 Squadron) once discussed his shooting down on September 26th 1940 with me, and often attributed it to his No2, P/O Samolinski.

He felt that Samolinski had opened fire to the rear and starboard, touched the rudder and riddled Edges' Hurricane, causing him to bale out. Though in this case, I'm not sure it could be attributed as a 'full on' friendly fire incident.

Brian
30th March 2006, 22:47
Hi Andy

Many thanks - I did have a note of this. Do you have a 'fuller' account of the incident? If not, I shall see if I can find his combat report for this date.

Cheers
Brian

Laurent Rizzotti
5th April 2006, 21:26
Mission 335 Dec 19, 1944 Blechhammer.
B-17 #44-6532 piloted by 1st Lt. Haddon Johnson Jr. My father who is still alive was the bombardier navigator on this flight his name is Richard Hugh Clarke Jr. , 0-751804B. On December 19,1944 this A/C was in the South Oil area at Blechhammer, dropped from formation and lost site. They lost the No. 2 engine and No 4 engine was on fire and lost altitude immediately. The A/C also sustained a direct hit through the right wing fuel tank. They set a south east course hoping to make it to the Russian lines. They skimmed over and around mountains in the Czechoslovakia and nearly crashed head on with a German command plane. They expected an attack from German fighters to pick them off, they didn't expect an attack by two Russian fighters near the Hungarian border. They all believed the attack was pure stupidity as all identifications were given. Kelly the upper turret gunner sent one Russian plane down in smoke and the a parachute. The other plan took off. They crash landed safely in Hungry behind the Russian lines. The crew with the help of the Hungarians, were evacuated back to Italy on Jan 15, 1945.
They were a make up crew:
Crew List
H. Johnson, B Campbell, R. Pilcher, R. Clarke, H.Kelly, E. Storrer, V. Slivka, L Francis, J.Cash

The Hungarian interpreter was a Yugoslav named Payle(Paul) M. Kavacevic, a mining engineer and graduate from the University of Leeds in England. The other interpreter was a Hungarian Jew from Budapest that they called "Joe". Joe was a chemical engineer who escaped from a German labor battalion and was employed in gold mine processing by the Russians. He hadn't heard about his family in Budapest for several years.

This is taken from my father to help anyone. If you would like to contact me please feel free to email me, Rick Clarke at RClarke118@aol.com (RClarke118@aol.com).

Source:
http://www.armyairforces.com/forum/m_6143/tm.htm

Chris Goss
5th April 2006, 23:03
Re Edge, I too spoke to Edge but the incident matches perfectly with a combat and loss from JG 51; Edge was proud that no German ever crept up on him......I leave it to you

shooshoobaby
6th April 2006, 19:01
Brian - Two more for your files.
April 19, 45 - Pilot Lt. Kenneth Horner 364th FG , 385th Sq. Shot down by Russian Fighters , Stuttgart GE. MACR # 14150 Pilot RTD

April 25 , 45 - B -17 # 338191 " Shasta " 303d BG 358th Sq. Pilot
Lt. Earnest Bailey. Shot down by B -17 # 338540 457th BG - 9 RTD.
Mike

Brian
6th April 2006, 19:44
Laurent, Chris and Mike - thanks for the latest.

Mike, do you have a copy of MACR 14150? How's the wife and Dad - hope they've recovered from the flu. I have now, thankfully.

Cheers
Brian

Bruce Lander
6th April 2006, 20:27
Hi Brian,
the book "Luftwaffe Aces" by Franz Kurowski ( Stackpole Militaery History Series) 2004 notes in it's chapter on Heinz Bar pp 46 that just prior to the invasion of the west in May 1940, a bf 109 of JG.51 shot down the Fw.58 carrying Generalmajor Von Doring wounding him in the buttocks and slightly injuring one of his aides.
Anyone got any further details ?

Bruce Lander

shooshoobaby
7th April 2006, 02:04
Brian - I don't have the MACR. I got the info from Mighty Eighth Combat Chronology.

Brian
7th April 2006, 22:32
Thanks anyway, Mike.

At long last I have received a copy of Olsen's 'Aphrodite Desperate Mission', as recommended by you. Haven't had a chance to read it yet but I am aware it's full of very useful information. One entry I did notice, however (on page 65) mentioned RAF fighters shooting down three B-24s returning late from a mission, circa June/July 1944. Any ideas?

Cheers
Brian

I have since noted that the 34thBG lost four B-24s to 'intruders' on the night of 6/7 June 1944. Any information?

Laurent Rizzotti
9th April 2006, 11:26
James P Deadly testimony on the Net:

"In the Spring of 1945 1 was shot down again, this time over American soil by an American captain while I was towing a target from a P51 for aerial gunnery practice. He flew too close and was over eager to try for a good score! But therein lies another tale."

This probably occured over Florida on 20 March 1945, Deadly was flying the P-51K 44-11814 (at least he is recorded to have an "accident" this day with this aircraft).

Source:
http://www.324thfighter.org/ToTellTheTale/html/telltale.html
http://www.aviationarchaeology.com/src/dbapi.asp?Pilot=Dealy

BIGVERN1966
9th April 2006, 23:04
23 Dec 42 Beaufighter (mark unknown, most likely a VIf) V8387 shot down by Spitfire (Mark unknown, most likely a Vb) EP398. Beuafighter was fitted with the only example of A.I. Mk IX radar and was being operated out of RAF Coltishall as part of 'Window' trials. Pilot (unknown) and Radar Operator (Dr Downing of TRE) killed. Pilot of Spitfire (unknown) was Canadian on his first operational sortie.

Source of Info - Station history of RAF Coltishall by Mick Jennings.

Brian
10th April 2006, 11:17
Hi Bruce

Thanks - the date of this incident was 17 April 1940 but I don't know the identity of the JG51 pilot concerned. Anyone any ideas?

Cheers
Brian

Brian
10th April 2006, 11:24
Hi BigVern

The Beaufighter (V8387) was flown by Sqn Ldr Henry Mould. He and Flt Lt Dr Downing were the tragic victims of Sgt Norman Gerrand RCAF of 167 Squadron, who also attacked and damaged the second Beaufighter (X7583).

I was interested in your note about a Firefly of NFIS operating from Coltishall against the V-1 carrying Heinkels of III/KG53. This was new to me and I would be intested if you have any further infomation.

Cheers
Brian

BIGVERN1966
10th April 2006, 22:15
Hi BigVern

The Beaufighter (V8387) was flown by Sqn Ldr Henry Mould. He and Flt Lt Dr Downing were the tragic victims of Sgt Norman Gerrand RCAF of 167 Squadron, who also attacked and damaged the second Beaufighter (X7583).

I was interested in your note about a Firefly of NFIS operating from Coltishall against the V-1 carrying Heinkels of III/KG53. This was new to me and I would be intested if you have any further infomation.

Cheers
Brian

Hi Brian

The Information about the detachments is in both Coltishall's and Ford's ORB. This sortie I listed (out of the Coltishall ORB) ended with the Firefly turning back near the Dutch coast with engine problems, after chasing one of the contacts across the North Sea in very bad weather. The Firefly pilot got very short visual contacts and only got one burst of 20 mm in at long range with no observable effects.

Regards Richard

Juha
10th April 2006, 22:20
Brian
in W. Harrison's FAIREY FIREFLY The Operational Record. Airlife 1992 ISBN 1 85310 196 6 there is on pp. 53 - 55 some detailled info on Firefly missions against He 111/V-1 combinations.

HTH
Juha

Brian
10th April 2006, 22:25
Thanks Richard & Juha - I will see if I can obtain a copy of Harrison's book.

Cheers
Brian

BIGVERN1966
11th April 2006, 01:11
Thanks Richard & Juha - I will see if I can obtain a copy of Harrison's book.

Cheers
Brian

Hi Brain

I'm after informtion about the Fireflies at Coltishall for a Profile, so any info in this direction would be helpful. (I have been told that there is a photo of a Firefly at Coltishall at the FAA Museum archive somewere).

Richard

Juha
11th April 2006, 07:50
Hello BIGVERN1966
Harrison gives some serials (and crews) to those Fireflies that operated against V-1s and their carriers. There is also a photo on page 54 with caption IIRC that this plane of 746 is like those used against He 111/V-1 combinations.

HTH
Juha

Brian
11th April 2006, 11:05
Hi guys - thanks.

Richard: could Lt (GL) Davies' pilot have been Lt John Armour RM? This pair flew together earlier and shot down a Do217 while flying a Mosquito of NFIS.

Cheers
Brian

BIGVERN1966
11th April 2006, 20:19
Hi guys - thanks.

Richard: could Lt (GL) Davies' pilot have been Lt John Armour RM? This pair flew together earlier and shot down a Do217 while flying a Mosquito of NFIS.

Cheers
Brian

Brian / Juha

Quote from Coltishall F540 ORB for Firefly NF 1 v He111 / V1 Action on 13.12.44

A Firefly of N.F.I.U., Ford, operating from Coltishall, Lt (Eneale 'best guess at the name')and Lt. Davies, were scrambled at 1826 hours under Hopton (CHL radar 'my quote') control and obtained three or four contacts, one of which was followed and a flying bomb seen, followed by a visual on the E/A for three or four minutes in very bad visibility. A one-second burst was given from 1,000 feet, but the aircraft disappeared into cloud and was lost, no results being observed. The contact was regained at one mile range and the E/A followed, obtaining intermittent visuals in bad weather to very near the enemy coast when, unfortunately engine trouble developed and the Firefly was compelled to return to base, landing at 2020 hours.

Juha, does any of this match up with anything the Harrison book?


Brian, hope this can be of some help

Richard

Juha
11th April 2006, 22:40
Hello BIGVERN1966
Harrison p. 54 on 12/13 Dec. Lt Jimmy Kneale with Lt G. L. Davies DSC, the serial is not clearly stated (at least I cannot say that am 100% sure but it’s almost midnight here and I have spent 12 hours in archives and library today), but most probably MB419 (BTW the photo is of MB564 and credit of it is given to Lt/Cdr J. H. Kneale)
Then “He recalls the trip: ‘Only on one occasion was a Firefly NF1s cannon fired after a long ASH controlled pursuit in low-lying thick cloud which prevented any visual identification of the target. In the absence of a blind-firing facility this was no more than opportunist attempt, and no result were claimed.’”

HTH
Juha

Ps and thanks for the text from the Coltishall ORB.

BIGVERN1966
11th April 2006, 23:53
Hello BIGVERN1966
Harrison p. 54 on 12/13 Dec. Lt Jimmy Kneale with Lt G. L. Davies DSC, the serial is not clearly stated (at least I cannot say that am 100% sure but it’s almost midnight here and I have spent 12 hours in archives and library today), but most probably MB419 (BTW the photo is of MB564 and credit of it is given to Lt/Cdr J. H. Kneale)
Then “He recalls the trip: ‘Only on one occasion was a Firefly NF1s cannon fired after a long ASH controlled pursuit in low-lying thick cloud which prevented any visual identification of the target. In the absence of a blind-firing facility this was no more than opportunist attempt, and no result were claimed.’”

HTH
Juha

Ps and thanks for the text from the Coltishall ORB.

-OFF Topic - should be on V - 1 Flying Bomb countermeasures

Juha

A very big thanks in return. If you could confirm that Serial at a better time of day, tomorrow I've be very greatful. One question about the photo, is the Firefly in normal RN colours for the time, or is it in RAF Night Fighter scheme of Medium Sea Grey and Dark Green (which I know some NF1's were painted in post war).

Richard

mhuxt
12th April 2006, 06:23
Hi guys - thanks.

Richard: could Lt (GL) Davies' pilot have been Lt John Armour RM? This pair flew together earlier and shot down a Do217 while flying a Mosquito of NFIS.

Cheers
Brian

Hi Brian:

Do you have a date for the Do 217 claim?

Cheers,

Mark

Frank Olynyk
12th April 2006, 08:18
For Lt. John Ormonde Armour (RM), I have a damaged Ju-88 on Feb 24, 1944 at 2205 hours, in the Basingstoke area, in a Mosquito XII -- serial not given; his radar operator was Lt. William Gray Aitken Shepherd (RN). On July 15, 1944 at 0145 hours he was credited with a Do-217 destroyed, 10 m W of Antwerp, in a Mosquito XIII, again no serial; this time his radar operator was Lt. P R V Wheeler (RNVR) (I must have neglected to look him up in the Navy List). Combat reports for both exist in Air 50/469, and they are listed in the weekly FC Combats and Casualty lists.

Frank.

Juha
12th April 2006, 10:36
Yes, it seems pretty sure that it was MB419. Kneale had flown in between a scramble in DT933 on the night of 24/25.11. but had returned (I interpret that to Coltishall) in his usual plane MB419 on night of 9/10.12. but there was no activity on that nigh. Then he and Davies had the mission on 12./13.12.

On the picture, sorry I remembered wrongly, according to the caption the plane in photo is the same type as those used by 746 against He 111 V-1 carriers, so it merely shows what a NF1 looked alike. Anyway the two upper colours are both rather dark. I have not paid much notice on camos of RAF planes, so anyway I’m not a good judge of the colours showed on b/w photos.

HTH
Juha

mhuxt
12th April 2006, 13:10
Many thanks for the information Frank - on the off chance I might push my luck with you, I'm posting another thread re: a Luftwaffe loss on 24 July 1944. If you're able to have a look, I'd be most grateful.

Juha
14th April 2006, 14:45
I had a little more time to study the subject today.
the whole caption reads as “Firefly NF1 MB564 of No 746 Squadron in 1945. This was the type 746 used for their night interceptions of flying bomb-carrying He IIIs(sic.) in late 1944.”
For other readers, according to Harrison 746 Sqn was NFIU.

On colours, the two upper colours are rather dark and the difference of their darknesses is clearly less than the difference in those b/w photos that I have seen on for ex. 2 TAF and ADGB Spitfires in 44.

HTH
Juha

BIGVERN1966
14th April 2006, 15:29
I had a little more time to study the subject today.
the whole caption reads as “Firefly NF1 MB564 of No 746 Squadron in 1945. This was the type 746 used for their night interceptions of flying bomb-carrying He IIIs(sic.) in late 1944.”
For other readers, according to Harrison 746 Sqn was NFIU.

On colours, the two upper colours are rather dark and the difference of their darknesses is clearly less than the difference in those b/w photos that I have seen on for ex. 2 TAF and ADGB Spitfires in 44.

HTH
Juha

Hi Juha

That would mean that the aircraft would have been in the Standard RN Extra Dark Sea Grey and Slate Grey upper colours and Sky undersides of the period. Does the aircraft in the photograph have any unit codes on the side that are visible besides the Royal Navy and Aircraft Serial. The profile I wish get the correct markings on is attached.

Regards Richard

Juha
15th April 2006, 11:28
Hello BIGVERN1966
regretfully I cannot enlarge the thumbnail, most probably because my b….. PC is acting again, but after looking the small thumbnail I noticed that I should have written before that the spinner of the a/c in the photo is very dark, probably black. And the front half of the radar pod shows in the photo as light grey and the after half as white. The starboard wing conceals the fuselage in front of the side roundel, but behind the roundel there is no unit code. The starboard wing underside is badly in shadow, but there seem to be only rather small roundel, which isn’t at the tip of the wing but maybe halfway between tip and the outer cannon.

As You know MB419 seems to have flown most of the Firefly interception missions from Coltishall.

HTH
Juha

Laurent Rizzotti
28th April 2006, 21:40
On September 30th (1941), S.Ten. Franco Ferrari of 371ª Squadriglia was shot down and killed in the Nowo-Petrikowka area by German Flak, which mistook his Macchi as a Russian fighter.

http://disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?id=63687;article=3224

Brian
29th April 2006, 10:27
Many thanks Laurent - another 'new' incident to me.

Cheers
Brian

Laurent Rizzotti
31st May 2006, 14:04
Hi Brian,

I continue to find friendly fire incidents here and there, and will report them here.

Here are two, both for 49th FG USAAF:

31 October 1944:
To start the day wrong, the ack ack shot down a P-38 from the 7th squadron while it was landing. There was a strafing raid in progress, but that was a scant excuse for the tragic incident.
Source: http://www.flyingknights.net/unit/oct44b.htm (http://www.flyingknights.net/unit/oct44b.htm)
The pilot may have been 2nd Lt Robert W. Searlight who was KIA this day but I have no confirmation of this, or any serial.

4 April 1942
See the following link: http://www.armyairforces.com/forum/m_89349/tm.htm
It describes a raid on Darwin. Returning intercepting US fighters were fired on by Australian AA fire and two shot down, with one pilot KIA.

Best regards

Laurent

Six Nifty .50s
31st May 2006, 21:59
Hi Brian,

4 April 1942
See the following link: http://www.armyairforces.com/forum/m_89349/tm.htm It describes a raid on Darwin. Returning intercepting US fighters were fired on by Australian AA fire and two shot down, with one pilot KIA.

Lt. Grover Gardner bailed out and Lt. John Livingstone was killed during his emergency landing attempt.

Brian
31st May 2006, 22:07
Thanks for the latest - nice to hear from you once again, Nifty, trust you are well.

Keep em coming!

Cheers
Brian

shooshoobaby
3rd June 2006, 00:48
Brian - from Kelly Gross's book page 241.
354th pilot M.J. Slavlan P-47 AJ - I serial # unknown
Shot down by U.S. Anti - Aircraft near 354th base, Rosieres- en - Hays
December 4 , 44.
He also witnessed a P -38 shot down by U.S. AA at Base A - 2.
Evening of June 26,44.
All evidence points to P-38 #2104416 479th FG
Lt. Burton Gross( not related) KIA Macr 6557- Filed the next day.
Cheers,
Mike

Brian
3rd June 2006, 09:22
Cheers, Mike, two new names for me. The shooting down of the P-38 at A.2 was the incident witnessed by Richard Turner - the one we couldn't establish earlier.

I assume Slavin's aircraft wasn't badly damaged - it doesn't appear in the Armyairforces listing. Does anyone know more about him?

Have a nice one - the weather here today in Suffolk is beautiful - and about time too. Just perfect for the second day of the Third Test Match against Sri Lanka!! With apologies to all Americans who do not appreciate the real 'beautiful game'!

Cheers
Brian

paulmcmillan
7th June 2006, 11:14
Brian - Are you aware of this incident?

Look up X4818 on this web site?

http://www.adf-serials.com/2a58.shtml


If you do, I don't suppose you have crew names do you?

Thanks

Paul