Luftwaffe losses, Kiev, 6.11.1943, asking for help.

[Evgeny Velichko]

Hallo gentlmen!

I am very interested to find out actual losses around Kiev on 6 november 1943.

As far as I know, there were following units:

II./JG54 (list of G.Rosipal have no losses for JG54 on this date)
I./JG51 - I have no losses
II./JG52 (I have 1 loss SSW Kiev of 6 Staffel, and 1 loss in unknown area of II./JG52)

II./SG2
I/SG77
SG10

This subject is linked with Rudorffer's claims on that day, but I made a different topic.

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi.

In addition to the two losses for JG 52, I have the following:

For I./Schl.G.77:

http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db/lw_loss_public.asp?lossid=104862
http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db/lw_loss_public.asp?lossid=104861

What part of SG 10 did you think was in the area, as it seem they were taking losses in Belgium, possibly stationed at Venlo around this time? I guess Marcel Hogenhuis would know details about this.

Regards,
Andreas B

[yogybär]

Maybe 14./SG9? They had one loss that day, but I don't know where and where they were based.

[Evgeny Velichko]

Thanks Andreas!

This loss (http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db/lw_loss_public.asp?lossid=104861) fits perfectly, 01 582.

Also, I've found this loss:
Ju 87D-3, 110486, 8./St.G. 3, MIA with crew on 6.11.43 due to Flak. Pl.Qu 01 582,

Ju-87 losses on that day are very important. All I can say now - it could be a result of action of Yaks of 728 iap and 91 iap. I am checking times and locations now.

About SG10:


Stab./SG10 - Berditschew, 10.43 - 1.44, Fw 190F/G
I./SG10 - Berditschew, 10.43 - 1.44, Fw 190F/G
II./SG10 - Berditschew, 10.43 - 1.44, Fw 190F/G
III./SG10 - Berditschew, 10.43 - 1.44, Fw 190F/G


Berditschew - 112km WSW from Kiev, and 36 km S from Zhitomir (II./JG54 airfield).

[Andreas Brekken]

Hello, Jörg.

The 14./S.G.9 loss was attributed to Flak, and the pilot was unhurt.

So - no NVM - loss reported in the loss list of February 29th 1944 - so until we find the missing records or other secondary sources we will not know any details.

Regards,
Andreas B

[Matti Salonen]

I have for Luftflotte 4 the following, some of which are in Kiev area:

1943-11-06, 7.(H)/32 (NAGr. 6), FW 189A-2, 265, M4+CR, 20 km südsüdwestlich Kiew, Bordwaffenbeschuß. Bruch 40 %.
Bs Ogfr Bock, Hayo-Albert, verletzt
1943-11-06, II/JG 52, Bf 109G-6, 410121, Luftkampf. Bruch 100 %.
1943-11-06, 6./JG 52, Bf 109G-6, 410082, Wassilkow, Jägerbeschuß. Bruch 25 %.
1943-11-06, 12./JG 54, FW 190A-5, 410213, Pl.Qu. 9244, Notlandung infolge Brennstoffmangel. Bruch 45 %.
1943-11-06, 3./KG 3, Ju 88A-4, 300137, 5K+KL, Kalinowka, Absturz und Aufschlagbrand. Bruch 100 %.
F Lt Weyrauch, Günter, tot
B Uffz Gratschka, Erwin, tot
Bf Uffz Piesold, Helmuth, tot
Bs Uffz Bärmann, Horst, tot
1943-11-06, II/KG 53, He 111H-16, Saborje, Jägerbeschuß. Bruch ? %.
Bs Stfw Schröder, Reinhold, verletzt
1943-11-06, 2./NSGr. 4, Ar 66, 1011, 1K+OK, Fl.Pl. Usin, Bei Landung Ju 87D-3, Werk-Nr. 130806, gerammt. Bruch 100 %.
1. Wart Ogfr Prochnow, Hans, verletzt
1943-11-06, 9./Schl.G 1, Ju 87D-3, 110488, Pl.Qu. 48725, Jägerbeschuß. Bruch 20 %.
1943-11-06, I/Schl.G 77, DFS 230, 120106, Wassilkow, Von eigener Truppe gesprengt. Bruch 100 %.
1943-11-06, I/Schl.G 77, DFS 230, 122137, Wassilkow, Von eigener Truppe gesprengt. Bruch 100 %.
1943-11-06, I/Schl.G 77, DFS 230, 122162, Wassilkow, Von eigener Truppe gesprengt. Bruch 100 %.
1943-11-06, I/Schl.G 77, DFS 230, 221318, Wassilkow, Von eigener Truppe gesprengt. Bruch 100 %.
1943-11-06, I/Schl.G 77, DFS 230, 227346, Wassilkow, Von eigener Truppe gesprengt. Bruch 100 %.
1943-11-06, I/Schl.G 77, DFS 230, 227352, Wassilkow, Von eigener Truppe gesprengt. Bruch 100 %.
1943-11-06, I/Schl.G 77, DFS 230, 227498, Wassilkow, Von eigener Truppe gesprengt. Bruch 100 %.
1943-11-06, I/Schl.G 77, Ju 87D-3, 110016, Pl.Qu. 0177, Notlandung infolge Flakbeschuß, anschliesend gesprengt. Bruch 100 %.
1943-11-06, I/Schl.G 77, Ju 87D-5, 130903, Pl.Qu. 0177, Notlandung infolge Flakbeschuß, anschliesend gesprengt. Bruch 100 %.
1943-11-06, 4./Schl.G 77, Ju 87D-3, 110846, Fl.Pl. Wassilkow, Flugzeug bei Flugplatzräumung in Feindeshand gefallen. Bruch 100 %.
1943-11-06, 6./Schl.G 77, Ju 87D-5, 130942, S2+FP, 3 km nördlich Biala-Zerkow. Bordwaffenbeschuß. Bruch 100 %.
F Ofw Günther, Paul, verletzt
1943-11-06, 6./Schl.G 77, Ju 87D-5, 130948, Pl.Qu. 172. Notlandung infolge Bordwaffenbeschuß. Bruch 100 %.
1943-11-06, 9./Schl.G 77, Ju 87D-3, 110872, S2+KT, 3 km nördlich Maljutjanka. Notlandung infolge Flakbeschuß. Bruch 100 %.
F Lt Saul, Werner, vermißt
Bf Uffz Richter, Dieter, vermißt
1943-11-06, 9./Schl.G 77, Ju 87D-5, 130806, Fl.Pl. Usin. Durch landender Ar 66, Werk-Nr. 1011, gerammt. Bruch 25 %.
B.P. ?, verletzt
1943-11-06, San.Fl.Ber. 11, Ju 52/3m, 7660, GG+FH, Seegebiet 8164 (Schwarzes Meer), Notlandung auf See. Bruch 100 %.
F Uffz Hildebrand, Karl-Heinz, vermißt
Bf Uffz Pollak, Werner, vermißt
Bm Uffz Respondeck, Fritz, vermißt
Bs Ofw Gehrlicher, Ludwig, vermißt
17 Fluggäste, vermißt

Matti

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, all

Matti - I have the following for your 7.(H)/32 (NAGr. 6) loss:

http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db/lw_loss_public.asp?lossid=112548


Just checked the original and it is def N.A.Gr. 9 in it.

For:

1943-11-06, I/Schl.G 77, DFS 230, 120106, Wassilkow, Von eigener Truppe gesprengt. Bruch 100 %.

I have WNr 100106, not 120106, and the original record says 100106

1943-11-06, I/Schl.G 77, DFS 230, 122137, Wassilkow, Von eigener Truppe gesprengt. Bruch 100 %.

I have WNr 222137, not 122137, and the original record says 222137.

And finally for the follwoing:

1943-11-06, San.Fl.Ber. 11, Ju 52/3m, 7660, GG+FH, Seegebiet 8164 (Schwarzes Meer), Notlandung auf See. Bruch 100 %.

I have the loss date as 05.11.1943 as per GenQu.

Have you used other sources to add to the GenQu listings for these?

Regards,
Andreas B

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, again.

Well, I have lookrd into the losses of the units again.

SG 10 (or Schl.G.10 as they are listed as in GenQu lists for this period) have registered losses only in the west until late November 1943.

You are researching losses in the great renaming and reequipping period of most Schlachtgeschwader:

Per order the renaming was to happen on October 18th 1943, and for Schl.G.10 which was a new unit, the changes were as follows

Stab/S.K.G.10 -> Stab/Schl.G.10
I./Schl.G.2 -> I./Schl.G.10
IV./S.K.G.10 -> II./Schl.G.10
II./St.G.77 -> III./Schl.G.10

I believe that there might be some losses coupled to the wrong unit during this transition, but that is for further research.

Regards,
Andreas B

[Evgeny Velichko]

Matti - thank You very very much!

A bit later, when I'll cross check all claims and losses, I'll post here a result. Also, I have a picture about Rudorffer claims in that area, now it is much more clear...

Andreas:

Yes, thank You.


Stab/S.K.G.10 -> Stab/Schl.G.10
I./Schl.G.2 -> I./Schl.G.10
IV./S.K.G.10 -> II./Schl.G.10

All above were based in west in october 1943.


II./St.G.77 -> III./Schl.G.10
II./St.G.77 was based.... At Wassilkow, just in the place where so many Ju87's were in action and were burned / left when a/f was captured by soviet troops on 6.11.43!

So, in action were:

I./SG77 (former I./StG77) (did this unit ever based at Lemberg on late 1943?)
III./SG10 (former II./StG77)
Perfect!

[Matti Salonen]

Hi Andreas and others,

From NVM I have made a note, that N.A.Gr. 6 reported Fw 189 loss, but gave unit designation 7.(H)/32. Might be my typo or GQM error.

You are absolutely right with those DFS 230 Werk-Nummers. I have evidently too narrow computer display and therefore forgot to check far right the colum "Remarks" in my database. I have there a note of GQM reported WNr.s, which you gave, but based on statistical WNr-blocks have made a "correction". Of course it would be safer to use original, maybe with question mark.

For Ju 52/3m I have not found a NVM, but for Uffz Respondeck in one WASt document there was a date 1943-11-06.

Matti

[Evgeny Velichko]

Gents, is this loss report is correct?

Ju 87D-3, 110486, 8./St.G. 3, MIA with crew on 6.11.43 due to Flak. Pl.Qu 01 582

[Matti Salonen]

I think, that it is not correct. Quite possible, that this is it, whose location in NVM is also Pl.Qu 01582:
1943-11-06, 9./Schl.G 77, Ju 87D-3, 110872, S2+KT, 3 km nördlich Maljutjanka. Notlandung infolge Flakbeschuß. Bruch 100 %.
F Lt Saul, Werner, vermißt
Bf Uffz Richter, Dieter, vermißt
Also:
1943-09-06, 8./St.G 3, Ju 87D-3, 110486, Fl.Pl. Smolensk-Nord, Bruchlandung. Bruch 40 %.
Maybe this was still under repair in November?

Matti

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi.

Here is that last record as it is in the GenQu list - I just checked it for any typos in the database:

http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db/lw_loss_public.asp?lossid=104861

Regards,
Andreas B

[Evgeny Velichko]

Ok, gentlmen, thank You very much.

And last question - were there any Fw190 losses? Aksing about II./JG54 and II./SG2 mainly...

[Matti Salonen]

None in my database.

Matti

[Andreas Brekken]

I cannot find any either.

Regards,
Andreas B

[yogybär]

were there any Fw190 losses?Why do you ask? Did Rudorffer claim LaGG-5's ? :D

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi.

Was there sucha a thing as a LaGG-5? I thought the designation was La-5, a development of the older LaGG-3 design?

Regards,
Andreas B

[jeanba]

Hi.

Was there sucha a thing as a LaGG-5? I thought the designation was La-5, a development of the older LaGG-3 design?

Regards,
Andreas B
LaGG-5 is a mistake that is often found in german records.

[Maxim1]

LaGG-5 is a mistake that is often found as a claim in german records.
As well as LaGG-7, LaGG, Il-5, Il-7, MiG-1 and many others.

[jeanba]

I think nonetheless there was a LaGG-5 prototype, which was the adaptation of the Lagg-3 to a radial engine but different from Lavochkine's. I am not sure, especially with Soviet aircraft names "as known in the west", and Russian speaking soviet aircraft experts may bring more clarifications there

[Evgeny Velichko]

LaGG - "Lavochkin", "Gudkov", "Gurevich".

La-5 - was LaGG-3 with M-82 radial, designed by Lavochkin
Gu-82 - was LaGG-3 with M-82, designed by Gudkov.

http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Images/2-Airplanes/Allies/2-USSR/01-Fighters/Gu-82/p1.jpg
http://lib.rus.ec/i/44/256144/pic_14.jpg
http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/AK/AK2005-02/26-1.jpg

[jeanba]

Thank you for your clarifications Evgeny

[yogybär]

Actually, according to Gordon/Khazanov-books, there were some planes of the first series called LaGG-5 IIRC.

Anyway, there are quite a few claims for "LaGG-5" in the TonyWoods-lists*, although many german documents call the A/C La-5 (see attachement). That was why I used this wrong name on purpose.

http://yogysoft.de/photogallery/ident/LaGG.jpg
* After checking the lists I found out that this only happened within JG52.



But BTT:
Evgeny, why do you connect 190-losses to Rudorffers Jak-claims on that day?

[Evgeny Velichko]

Jorg - it was the same action.

Fw190 of II./JG54 flew escort for Ju87's, who tried to attack soviet troops on the way to main poins of german defence. Also, in the evening, soviet troops captured german airfoeld - Wasilkow, and not all damaged Ju87's were left on the ground burned by german ground personnel.

I know now, what soviet regiments fought against II./JG54 and Ju87's, and know its losses and claims.

Wait a bit, I'll post details. In short - soviets were much more accurate in claims then german opponents in that area :)