Rolls Royce Merlin Engines

[Matelot]

Hi All,

I'm thinking about compiling a list of Rolls Royce Merlin Engines, there serial no's etc, and try to associate them with the aircrafts they were installed in.

I have emailed the RR Heritage Centre for info, but was also hoping if anyone has any other ideas?

cheers

Richard

[brewerjerry]

Hi
There was a group of enthusiasts in the 70/80's that did this, they matched the R-R number to the RAF A number.
I recall writing to them about a Lancaster, they were based near Derby.
Sorry but no more info,
Maybe someone else can help more.
Other options is to wade thro' every crash file for details.
Cheers
Jerry

[Bill Walker]

Keep in mind that engines were regularly moved from airframe to airframe, when they needed overhaul or repair. Any records you do find should be considered snapshots: where that engine was on one day.

I wish you luck with this huge task.

[Matelot]

A quick update, I've got a number of Serial No's for the Merlin II Engines. And was wondering if anyone would know, how I can get information on which manufacturer would have received them.

From that I can then try and find out which A/C had them installed.

cheers
in advance :)

[Andy Saunders]

As Bill Walker pointed out, you may be able to establish which aircraft was fitted with which engine at delivery and as marked on the AM Form 78, but subsequent changes to the engine (ie replacement engine) that had originally been installed at point of delivery to the RAF were not generally recorded on the AM 78.

So, good luck anyway....and here is one to start you off:

I can tell you that Merlin XII 11723 (A140950) was fitted to Spitfire P7386, although the AM 78 records no engine number at all!

[Matelot]

Many thanks :)

I understand that the AM Form 78, is the Aircraft Movement Card, which should capture the movement of the aircraft through its life with the RAF. But does/did, the RAF maintain a maintance log for each aircraft?

[Andy Saunders]

Each RAF airframe had an AM78 and most still survive. However, all of those AM78s for (then) surviving Spitfires were stolen from AHB in the 1970/80s and have never been recovered although there are many who have more than a strong idea where they went.

That aside, the existing AM 78s for all Merlin equipped aircraft mostly show the engine number the aircraft was fitted with, although only at manufacture/delivery. Sometimes, however, no engine number was recorded - as with P7386.
The record card otherwise lists the various units, damage, repairs etc etc to the airframe.

Good luck with your project. You have your work cut out and I am by no means sure as to the eventual value of the exercise.

[Observer1940]

Hello Richard

I did a search of TNA, Kew Catalogue under "Rolls"; also "Royce"; plus "R.R."; "RR"; engine*; "Merlin"; "Rolls AND Royce" aircraft manufacturer and I; II; III; - X - etc., etc., and I recall getting a fair list of files to go at.

Also the Aircraft handling trials in AVIA 18, e.g. a search "Whitley" and the other aircraft types etc. I know the Whitley has an accident where the engine burnt out while under trail, setting fire to the aircraft.

Try Accident Cards at RAF museum for the RAF numbers given the engine, usually an engine failure with forced a landing was an 'L17' Cause and many A.M.1180 cards record the RAF number too. Can't get many engine numbers for my Whitleys of interest though!
You need to try under AIR, AVIA, SUPP (Ministry of Supply) and I think DEFE, or leave the Series blank.

The Whitley V with Merlin X engines is an interest of mine and I could never get any response from the R.R. Archives at all. Although I had heard that researcher/s were getting access to a massive engine Card Index somewhere. Rolls Royce failed to reply.

However, what I did discover was:-
i) Merlin X was overheating during early to mid WW2 due to loss of coolant and then the engine was catching fire, some of which were attributed to a faulty block (internal coolant circulation ways) and some of the other failures being thought due to the coolant system not being filled fully, with the suspicion that the Whitley coolant levels had been checked / topped up on sloping ground.
ii) I also noted that not all Pxxxx Whitley A.M.78s record the engine numbers given them by the RAF and I see Andy above has discovered this problem too.
iii) Jerry is quite correct above, that the engine serial number given by Rolls Royce was different to the number given the same engine by the Royal Air Force.

I have managed to find lists for the Whitley Merlin for January, February and March 1943 which gives both (R.R. and R.A.F.) engine numbers, with an RAF aircraft serial too, along with hours flown and when the block was changed, date of pressure tests and block change and whether done by Service; R.R. Crewe or R.R. Glasgow.

I found some other stuff in one of the TNA, files, a massive file (so big you had to take a long time to turn over the pages carefully) which included correspondence from MAP, along with some occasional references to crashes where the engine was thought possibly to be the cause.

It was Air Ministry Regulations that both the Engine and Airframe Log Books were to be retained permanently. But so far I have only been able to find A.M.78s.

PM me your email and I will forward some scans (6-7Mb) to start you off.

Mark

[Matelot]

many Tanks Mark, PMing now.

[Andy Saunders]

The "permanent" retention of engine and airframe log books (and in respect of the latter, it was presumably the F.700?) was only really "permanent" during the lifetime of engine or airframe. They might have continued to exist for a while after both engine or airframe ceased to exist, but certainly all had gone by not long after the end of the war.

[Observer1940]

Andy

"Log books of Marine Craft, Aircraft and Engines, including Engine History Sheets and Aircraft Record Cards, and Daily Work and Station Log Books will be preserved."
Air Ministry 1935 and November 1941

See attchment

Aircraft and Engine Log Books were to be sent to A.M. Archives.

Mark

[Andy Saunders]

Whilst many documents were "preserved" according to AMOs, APs and the like I'm afraid that it was the case that such documents were only "preserved" for as long as they were relevant. I do not believe such documents remain preserved to this day, and in this respect I refer specifically to the F.700 and engine records. Almost certainly these would have been destroyed after one of the AM's regular stock takes of documents that needed to be retained.

However, your post quoted:

"Log books of Marine Craft, Aircraft and Engines, including Engine History Sheets and Aircraft Record Cards, and Daily Work and Station Log Books will be preserved."

I do not know about marine craft, and excluding the aircraft and engine records and log sheets etc it is the case, of course, that Daily Work and Station Log Books are still retained for (most) units at TNA Kew. In this respect, I am talking about Operations Record Books and Details of Work Carried Out as I suspect this is what the latter refers to.


I'd like to be proved wrong, but I'd be most surprised (and pleasantly so!) if engine and airframe records still exist. (That is, excluding the AM Form 78, which are the Aircraft Movement Cards and which DO still exist!) Remember - we are talking about hundreds of thousands of records if we are talking about the F.700 and the engine logs! If they still existed, somebody would know where surely? I am pretty sure I know the answer that would come back from AHB.

[Bill Walker]

You missed the coloumn on the right. I think that tells you where those books are today.

[Andy Saunders]

Well spotted!

Doh. Why didn't I see that?

It seems the disposal date was optional, as in "may be destroyed", and fortunately the Daily Work and Station Logs etc were not destroyed if this indeed refers to the F540 etc.

[stevekg55]

Hi Andy!

Thought it was about time I joined this forum!

Steve Hall

[Observer1940]

Quote: Bill Walker; "You missed the coloumn on the right. I think that tells you where those books are today."

Hello Bill and Andy

I did see the column on the right. However, the 1 year only applied to Signals and Mechanical Transport Vehicles.

However, the square bracket note underneath was a reminder to those in charge of records at RAF Units that the items listed within the square brackets were to be preserved.

Some of the other items mentioned such as Station ORBs and Aircraft Cards are still held.

According to my 1935 (amended to 1938) King's Regs of the RAF and the amendment pasted in under "Flying Regulations" when the airframe or engine was finally written off charge, the Log Book will then be forwarded to the Air Ministry Archives Section, Stores Depot, Kidbrooke.

Mark