Red Tails

[kaki3152]

Anyone geared up to see this film? The computer graphics make it worth seeing, IMHO, even though the plot looks very standard.

[John Beaman]

Well, I guess I'll see it. I'm sure Hollywood will make them seem like saviors of western civilization. I fact, on Fox news morning show, one of the actors told those present that the Red Tails' actions on D-Day made it possible for the troops to land with minimum aerial activity! He also said that there expertise allowed them to become aces. Note the plural use of ACES. I never heard of any 12th AF aircraft being near the French coast on June 6. They were over and around Rome. Nor have I read about but just one "Ace" from the unit and I believe that the necessary 5th kill was awarded to the pilot a couple years ago. Encounter Report said that he and another pilot had shared a claim but in looking at his gun camera the USAF determined that he had inflicted the necessary damage to bring it down. Study 85 makes no mention of a shared victory.

Their veterans' association, two years ago, finally admitted that their claim of having never lost an escorted bomber was not true.

These men overcame tremendous odds and obstacles to become pilots and made a very significant contribution to the war effort and the eventual US armed forces desegregation in 1947. I've never understood why they couldn't just bask in their earned glory and not exaggerate their history. Reminds me of the AVG.

[Frank Olynyk]

John,
There are no aces with the 332nd FG. Lee Archer is credited with four victories. The Air Force has never confirmed a fifth victory for him. He told me once he had only four victories, but that on returning from one mission he believed that he had shared another victory with another pilot (I have unfortunately forgotten his name), but that because they had no other witnesses they never bothered to make a claim. I am unaware of any combat/encounter reports for Lee. The belief that he has a fifth victory comes from an error made by Charles Francis in his (the) original book on the 332nd FG, where he lists a victory for Lee on July 20, 1944. I have a copy of his Form 5 for July, and he did not fly on that day, and the Narrative Mission Report for the 332nd on that day does not mention him.

Frank.
Historian, American Fighter Aces Association.

[John Beaman]

Thanks, Frank. You confirm what I've heard.

[Jim P.]

The CGI stuff in the TV ad looks stunning, but the dialog presented makes me cringe. George Lucas at his finest.

[chuckschmitz]

Quick review, I was not that impressed. They had a great story in history to tell and had to embelish the facts and make-up a few of their own. According to the film they escorted the first raid on Berlin and shot down the first Me-262s. Of course the members of the forum will find numerous problems with markings and tactics. The racism that existed in portrayed to good effect. I may have to pull out my DVD of the Battle of Britian.

Chuck

[David N]

Quick review, I was not that impressed. They had a great story in history to tell and had to embelish the facts and make-up a few of their own. According to the film they escorted the first raid on Berlin and shot down the first Me-262s. Of course the members of the forum will find numerous problems with markings and tactics. The racism that existed in portrayed to good effect. I may have to pull out my DVD of the Battle of Britian.

Chuck

I pulled out my DVD of the Battle of Britain last night and watched it again.

[John Beaman]

They escorted the first mission to Berlin?!! Jeez, I may not go see it all now. That's "Horrywood" at its worst.

BTW, I have the 9 reports on the 332nd done by the lead researcher at the Air Force Historical Center at Maxwell. They make interesting reading. They are PDF format. If anyone wants copies, contact me OB at jrbeaman@triad.rr.com

[Andrei Demjanko]

They escorted the first mission to Berlin?!! Jeez, I may not go see it all now. That's "Horrywood" at its worst.

They escorted the first 15th AF mission to Berlin.

Slightly off-topic:
I'll probably never understand those negative comments about a movie, which, after all, even didn't pretend to be a documentary, yet alone comparing modern visualisation technologies with almost archaic Battle of Britain movie. The movie about a real WW2 fighter unit could be a very good starting point to one's interest in aviation history and may led to the desire to know "how it was in reality", just like, I suppose, the mentioned Battle of Britain movie, first seen in their teens, eventually led many of forum members here and even further on to write their own books on WW2 aviation

[chuckschmitz]

The movie made it clear it was the first mission. The problem is that at the beginning of the movie it said it was inspired by real events. The impression in the movie is that it was all true. Hopefully it will inspire people to look at the facts. The BoB movie was better history.

Chuck

[Nick Beale]

… the movie it said it was inspired by real events …

Chuck

That and "based on a true story" are Hollywood-speak for "fiction", aren't they?

[chuckschmitz]

I believe so. Great history wecked by Hollywood.

[Jim P.]

"The BoB movie was better history." That, to me, is the root of the problem with these types of movies. Stick to the damned history without the embellishment. One would think telling the story of the 332nd FG like it was and what these guys had to overcome to be to be allowed to fly significant sorties like escorting bombers into the Reich would be an incredibly inspirational story in and of itself without adding all the BS. "Horrywood" indeed.

[Doolittle81]

Anyone geared up to see this film? The computer graphics make it worth seeing, IMHO, even though the plot looks very standard.

Graphics are Pretty. CGI physics and flight modeling are ridiculous. It's all George Lucas Star Wars X-Wing/Tie Fighter fantasy maneuvering.

[pmotch]

Wow.. that was so bad it was almost painful.
They took what should have been a great story and turned it into StarWars with airplanes~

Pretty amazing that a 262 hits a P-51 with his 30mm and the P-51 flies on.. yet the P-51 hits the 262 with a burst of .50 cal and the 262's wing comes off! And that was just one of the many ridiculous scenes. I also liked it when they showed the B-17 pilot pulling back the no.2 mixture to open the bomb bays doors.

Like I said, it was painful to watch after a while. This one made 'Pearl Harbor' look like a masterpiece.

They just don't make movies like the old days. Tora Tora Tora, Memphis Belle, Midway, BoB, etc...

[pourteau]

Good morning every body,

In fact, about the "legend" of the Red Tails, I really prefer the film of Robert Markawitz (1995) whose title is : "Air Men", based about the true story of the 332e.

yours sincerily

[Thimmig]

Not to mention the scripts dialogue! Every line sounds like an epic speech and there is lot's of modern day expressions that were not used back then. And the most ridiculous thing of all is the american football-style huddle!

[taitbb]

I am going to take it for what it is. A hollywood action/adventure war movie. No more, no less.
And i will happily take it as air war movies are few and far between. Hopefully it will be an enjoyable adventure (not expecting a historical documentary). If it is better than the awful redbaron, then I expect I will enjoy it.

[GMichalski]

it seems to me like the doghfights of the history channel, where the maximum speed of the curtiss P-40 is 640km/h!!!..... and never win a combat the axis aces
30mm vs 12,7 mm hahaha
the best films of 2ww are Battle of Britain, tora tora, midway, stalingrad.......
regards.

[GMichalski]

hi,
read this:
http://www.tuskegeeairmen.org/explore/Nine_Myths_About_the_Tuskegee_Airmen.pdf
kind regards

[stevebrauning]

Another cliche-filled flick... anyone remember "Memphis Belle"?