Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery

[Simon Schatz]

Hi Guys!

During research for the He 162 I found this pics:

http://www.aviation.technomuses.ca/databases/images/20459.jpg
http://www.aviation.technomuses.ca/databases/images/20461.jpg
http://www.aviation.technomuses.ca/databases/images/20462.jpg
http://www.aviation.technomuses.ca/databases/images/20475.jpg
http://www.aviation.technomuses.ca/databases/images/20646.jpg

That's the 120076 now under display in the Canada Aviation Museum in Ottawa.

My questions:

Has anybody ever seen a wartime pic of the He 162 having such a camouflage on the upper side of the wing?

I have no facts about the museum history of the 120076. Was there a restauration or is the plane in it's original condition from 1945?

More pics of the plane you will find here: http://www.aviation.technomuses.ca/collections/image_bank/dig_img.cfm?CurrentPage=1&action=&records_to_display=9&Model=Heinkel%20He%20162%20Volksjager&Designer=&service_name=&period=&registration=&NegNumber=&criteria=&submit=Search


Cheers, Simon

[Stefan Vetteriek]

Hello, Simon,

a wartime picture of W.Nr. 120067 can be found on p. 374 in

SMITH, J. R.; CREEK, E. J. (2005): Jagdwaffe – Jet Fighters and Rocket Interceptors. Luftwaffe Colours Vol. Five Section 4. Ian Allan Publishing. Hersham.

or on p. 32 in

BALOUS, M., BILY, M. (2004):Heinkel He 162 Spatz (Volksjäger). MBI. Praha.

The Jagdwaffe reproduction is the better one.

The original camo differs from the museum pics in several aspects so the a/c must have been repainted.

HTH

Stefan

[Simon Schatz]

Hi Stefan!

W.Nr. 120076 not 120067!!!

Nevertheless thanks for the try of assistance.

Cheers, Simon

[Sergio Luis dos Santos]

Hi Simon,
I never saw an He 162 photo with splinter camo on wings or fuselage. The Salamander was the first one to use the simplified camo scheme without the splinter aplication, as can be seen on his factory camouflage scheme. The museum looks to me a badly done camo restoration... but?

[Simon Schatz]

Hi Sergio!

The "Spatz" not "Salamander" had wodden wings. They were produced by small carpenter companys. Maybe possible that they painted such camo on the wing????? The colours differ from the other colours of the plane.

Has anybody ever seen a official document for the painting instructions for the He 162? I haven't, I only know only all the well known publications showing the wings in RLM81 and 82. (One colour per side) I have never seen a wartime pic of the He 162 showing the upper side of the plane.

Cheers, Simon

[Stefan Vetteriek]

Hi, Simon,

sorry for mixing up the W.Nr. He 162 W.Nr. 120067 is a "yellow 4" too.

Let me have a second attempt:

On p. 28 of an older issue of the french modelling magazine "Replic" (only kept the pages of interest, issue # isn't noted) there is a color picture of W.Nr. 120076, according to the caption taken on the 2nd of august 1945. Again especially the demarcation line between upper and lower camo bears no resemblence to the musuem camo pattern. This once more leads to the conclusion that this aircraft must have been repainted.

Now I hope this REALLY helps!

Best regards

Stefan

[O.Menu]

Hi !

120067 « white4 » is an A-1 (30mm guns) with the “diving eagle” from 1./JG1 on portside. Photos from this one could be found in near every publications about He 162, late JG1 or Luftwaffe camo.
120076 “yellow4” is far less known. It’s an A-2 (20mm guns) with very probably “Danzig’s lion” emblem from 3./JG1 on port-side. Only two valuable photos are known from me. One (1) & (2), was taken during surrender at Leck and clearly show no emblem on starboard. The second (3) is in color and taken at Farnborough before 4th of August 45 shows a usual camo sheme with grey unpainted jet engine air entrance and British markings over the Germans one.This airplane was later transferred to Canada on 9th September 46. There and before it’s public exposition in 1964 it was repainted with this probably unreal splinter camo as well as with the unexpected “Wolf head” from 2./JG1! Painted on both side as it was usually done for 2./JG1 airplanes only.

Cheers, Olivier.

Sources:
(1): Luftwaffe at war 10, German jets 44-45, M.Griehl, Greenhill
(2): Luftwaffe Profiles Series No.16, He 162, M.Griehl, Schiffer
(3): War Prizes, P.Butler, Midland Counties Pub., p156

[Simon Schatz]

It's me again!

Stefan, could you please send me a scan of the colour pic. I'm very interested to see that.

Olivier, thank you, but I think we are talking about some different planes.

Your source 1 (Luftwaffe at War series) only shows Yellow 4, W.Nr 120067 (Page 68 ) at Leck just before handed over to the allied trops.
Source 2 (Flugzeug Profile) shows Yellow or White 4, W.Nr. 120097 1./JG 1 (Page 17) at Kassel after surrender.

Your source 3 is not in my collection. Maybe possible to get a scan of that pic?

Cheers, Simon

[Stefan Vetteriek]

Hi, Simon,


if you send me your e-mail adress I will submit the scan you asked for.

My adress is vetteriek@foni.net.

Best regards

Stefan

[O.Menu]

Hehe!

Simon, both photos your are looking for (1) p68 & (2) p 17 are from the same "white4" but with different tails, even at Kassel White4 stay an A-1 and got the 1./JG1 diving eagle emblem on portside :)

If you want to see Yellow4, and i bet you want, you need to look to the third airplane in the row inside (1) p67 and (2) p31 (as i already told you it's the same photo inside both books). And you will see Yellow4 is an A-2 not an A-1 ;)

[Simon Schatz]

Olivier,

as you wrote, W.Nr 120067 and the plane with the unpainted tail (my sources says 120097)are the same plane? Is that correct? It's nearly impossible to compare the camouflage because the quality of the pics in the books is not as good as the pics I have from the plane with the unpainted tail. I found a difference. :D Compare the wingtips. 120067 clearly shows another camo.

Cheers, Simon

PS: The plane with the unpainted tail is a He 162 A-2 with the MG 151/20.

[O.Menu]

Indeed i really think they are the same one!

Like for the tail the one piece wing could be easily dismounted to allow transport by railway or by trucks. So the wings could easily be exchanged during rebuilt time...

Fuselage from your 2 He-162 is indeed the same. white4, 1./JG1 emblem on portside, dirty nose cone, black paint around the guns for 30mm guns so A-1, and very specific to this airplane there is like a bulge in front of this black gun paint like if the nose was not the original one. I dont remember to have seen this on another He162 than white4.

Note: the color photo from Replic is the same as the one from WarPrizes, and show yellow4 under British markings (note no black paint around the gun and so 20mm A-2)

And the question about splinter camo remain since it seems very possible but we dont have enough photos from upside to be sure. For example I have one photo showing same kinds of "loops" painting on the wing leading edge as it is sometimes visible on the wing tips.

[O.Menu]

Hi Simon!

Here you can clearly see how the rebuilt was quick done to make this He 162 some kind of gate entrance, when yellow6 and white3 also moved to Kassel stay without wings nor tails.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v498/LLv34_Doc/nothiswing.jpg

On the other side for Jean-Claude Mermet, a French author, Wk.N.120097 is actually "red3".

I hope you have been conviced this time ;)

Note also that the official He 162 camouflage pattern is from 18 January 1945 according to M.Ullmann, but at Leck only no less than five different camouflage could be found... So splinter camo over upper wing surface look very possible even if the one from Ottawa is possibly unreal... Help from Ottawa Museum restoration team would be necessary on this point!

Cheers.

[Simon Schatz]

Olivier,
really interesting to read your words. Are there reports about the transport of "White or Yellow4" to Kassel?

I'm not the He 162 expert, but I think the black colour around the cannons isn't a fact for MK 108. In the He 162 booklet X-planes of the Third Reich (page 72) is a series of the "White or Yellow4" with the unpainted tail, and there the MGs 151 are clear visible on both sides of the plane.

Very funny is the fact that I found a pic in the book showing a Yellow 7, also unpainted tail, and a W.Nr. 120067 painted on the wing!

I think the He 162 stuff is really complicated, because the allied trops mixed and overpainted all aircraftparts they found.

I will try to contact the museum in Canada. Maybe somebody of the restauration team can help me. Interesting are the pics I found here:

http://memorial.flight.free.fr/He162.html (http://memorial.flight.free.fr/He162.html)
http://memorial.flight.free.fr/He162photo.html (http://memorial.flight.free.fr/He162photo.html)
http://memorial.flight.free.fr/He162photo1.html (http://memorial.flight.free.fr/He162photo1.html)

Cheers, Simon

[SMF144]

A note on 120076. This airframe has been repainted several times since the war. So what you are seeing, especially with the upper wing camo, is totally wrong. Now, as for the other 162 in the collection, 120086, this one still retains its original camouflage.

Unless otherwise, 120086 is the only Luftwaffe aircraft left in the world that still wears its original camouflage that was applied on the assembly line. :D

Stephen

[pikas]

The bf109 WNr:163824 in Australia still wears its original camouflage,too.

[DaveM2]

Slightly off topic, but has anyone seen post capture photos of 120015 now in France? Looking for the original tactical number.

regards
Dave

[Simon Schatz]

Hi Stephen!

I contacted Miroslav Bily (Publisher of the MBI He 162 booklet) and he is the same opinion as you. The upper wing camo ist the work of some "artists" and not Luftwaffe camo. Do you know pics of the 120086?

DaveM2: I translated the restauration website, but the tactical number of 120015 is not named. Maybe they will find out during the restauration. I haven't seen a wartime pic of 120015.

Cheers, Simon

[SMF144]

Hi Simon,

I do and many. Take a look at the following link of pics of 86

www.clubhyper.com/ reference/he162sf_1.htm (http://www.clubhyper.com/ reference/he162sf_1.htm)

Stephen

[Simon Schatz]

Hi Stephen!

Impressive! Have you some colour pics of the wing?

Interesting is the camouflage colour of the fuselage. More green than brown.

On two pics the engine cover is visible. They look much darker than the green on the fuselage! Also wothy a mention is the heat protection on the upper side of the fuselage cone behind the engine. Never seen that before.

Your link doesn't work. Here is the correct one. http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/he162sf_1.htm

Cheers, Simon

[George Hopp]

Is it my imagination or is the green of one wing panel a slightly different shade of green than the other?

[Sergio Luis dos Santos]

Is it my imagination or is the green of one wing panel a slightly different shade of green than the other?

Well, in according with the factory camo scheme one wing is to be entirely painted in a single color and the other in another color. So it matches the official scheme, I guess. It´s interesting the dark area after the engine, looks a heat compound to prevent damage on fuselage.

It would be nice to have a complete walk around of this plane assembled prior any restoration. A pity the Komet also in Australia got wrong colors after the restoration since it was in nice shape (jugding by photos of it´s original wartime colors).

[O.Menu]

He 162 120015 had been painted 4 times by the French and probably "scoured" previous painting at least one time so there near no chance to find the original fuselage digit during restoration, but who knows... Cross fingers...

[O.Menu]

YEP !

In just published French mag "AFM", for Aviation Française Magazine, N°6, Philippe Couderchon tell us that 120015 was actually "yellow 21" :)

She was first thought to be "yellow1" since during her first restoration in 1976 they were only able to find Wk.Nr.120023 on the tailplane but as for "white4" it was not her original tailplane :D

[jad]

He 162 Ebay photos :

http://cgi.ebay.de/He162-He-162-Foto-vom-Start_W0QQitemZ6218954446QQcategoryZ15504QQssPageN ameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.de/He162-He-162-Foto-vom-Flugplatz-Kassel_W0QQitemZ6218954788QQcategoryZ15504QQssPage NameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.de/He162-He-162-Volksjaeger-Foto-mit-GI_W0QQitemZ6218955058QQcategoryZ15504QQssPageName ZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.de/He162-He-162-Salamander-Foto-vom-Start_W0QQitemZ6218955306QQcategoryZ15504QQssPageN ameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.de/He162-He-162-Volksjaeger-Nervenklau_W0QQitemZ6218955967QQcategoryZ15504QQss PageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.de/He162-He-162-Volksjaeger-Wn120227_W0QQitemZ6218956300QQcategoryZ15504QQssPa geNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[DaveM2]

Does he state the source of the info.....any photo?

regards
Dave


YEP !

In just published French mag "AFM", for Aviation Française Magazine, N°6, Philippe Couderchon tell us that 120015 was actually "yellow 21" :)

She was first thought to be "yellow1" since during her first restoration in 1976 they were only able to find Wk.Nr.120023 on the tailplane but as for "white4" it was not her original tailplane :D

[O.Menu]

Hi Dave,

Philippe Couderchon was the man who direct the cokpit restoration from the French He 162 at "Le Bourget" Museum and who is now helping for her "skin" restoration.

Philippe was kind enough to give some replies to my question on aerostorie forum (a French speaking forum: http://www.aerostories.org/~aeroforums/forumhist/ )

- He explained he was lured with some yellow paint between two panels but he is now pretty sure W.Nr. 120015 is actually "white 21".
- Further more in 1947 The French took off the German painting but luckily they kept some markings and especially the diving eagle emblem on both side of the fuselage. Cant wait to see some photos...
- He also said that some emblems had been painted by Germans after Leck surrender! Incredible no?

Cheers, Olivier

[DaveM2]

Hi Olivier

Thanks, I just recently found out through my friend Arnaud Mars ( Memorial Flight ) of Philippe's connection to the aircraft.I was hoping to tell them something they didn't already know!

regards
Dave

[O.Menu]

But is this so secret that you cant tell us? ...

[DaveM2]

???
What secret ? The information is in the magazine or in this thread....which doesn't meant to say the Memorial Flight people would have seen it, in which case I would have passed it on to them.

Dave

[O.Menu]

Arg! Excuse Dave my English is not as good as i would like...

By the way, Simon, It looks you are right, not all black gun bay are for 30mm. It seems that He 162 with W.Nr in 310... are but those in 120... are not. So the mystery about the black gun bay remain...

[SMF144]

I'd hazard a guess that there probably isn't a mystery behind the black painted gun troughs on the He.162. I think it's no different then the black that was painted on the fuselage of the Fw.190s to disguise the exhaust stain; and the same for the 109.

Then again...

Stephen

[DaveM2]

No problem..it is better than my French!

Dave


Arg! Excuse Dave my English is not as good as i would like...

By the way, Simon, It looks you are right, not all black gun bay are for 30mm. It seems that He 162 with W.Nr in 310... are but those in 120... are not. So the mystery about the black gun bay remain...

[Simon Schatz]

First I want to thank you for the great discussion. Here is my next problem!

I just finished my newest colour profile, you can imagine the plane. Yes it's a He 162 "Spatz". My problem are the colours of the markings. Was the background of the eagle emblem Yellow or Red. Was the number of the plane White or Yellow.

In "Luftwaffe Camouflage an Markings Vol 1" are some pics of the plane. Also a colour pic. Text says that it is a Yellow 4, but it looks more White than Yellow.

Here you find a preview of all 4 variants that could be possible. In colour and in bw to see how difficult it is to convert a BW-Pic into colour.

Please visit the link if the direct link to the pics doesn't work.

Cheers, Simon

http://www.free-webspace.biz/luftwaffe/He162-SimonSchatz2005.htm

http://www.free-webspace.biz/luftwaffe/He-162-120067-Simon-Schatz.jpg
http://www.free-webspace.biz/luftwaffe/He-162-120067-bw-Simon-Scha.jpg

[O.Menu]

Hi Simon !

I m probably not the best to reply but here is my feelling:

It's very probably 4 white more than yellow. 1/ It loks white on the color photo 2/ The diving eagle emblem is for the 1st Staffel and 1st Staffel had white digits 3/ Yellow 4 is visible on one Leck's photo and it doesnt have any black paint around the guns as white 4 have.

And the diving eagle is very probably red 1/ the tone is really the same as the one from the arrow 2/ This same white and red emblem was said to be found over W.Nr. 120015 under restoration in France.

[Simon Schatz]

Hi Menu,

Thank you, only wanted a confirmation for my suspicion. So my Profile of the 120067 is a White 4, flown by 1./JG 1, Eagle is red.

Cheers, Simon

[NC900A8]

Hello every body!

Philippe Couderchon come again after a long silent.

After my paper relating the story oh french He 162 in the french magazin AFM, I decaded to write the same paper for the english and german reader!
So you can see this article in Aeroplane monthly-April and May 2006, and in Flugzeug Classic -July and august 2006.

About the restoration of the wnr.120015, you can follow it on the web site at:
http://memorial.flight.free.fr/He162.html (http://memorial.flight.free.fr/He162.html)

At this time, the wings are now painting........in RLM71/RLM65.
See the photos just published two days ago!!

When the restoration will be finished, we will publish a book with many photos and informations!!

Best regards,

Philippe Couderchon

[Pascal Abbet]

Bonjour Philippe,

Nice to read you again!
I regularly follow the project progression.
I’d like to know when do you expected to finish the restoration?

Looking at the picture of the repainted wing on the web site, I was surprised to see the thin Balkenkreuz in the under surfaces. A well known picture (front) of the 120015, 21 white (yellow?) publish in different books lets show a bold black cross.
How did you determine the type of the marking? recovered during the restoration?

Thanks in advance and I’m very impatient to read the new publication about this extraordinary project (plane and restoration).

Salutations de Montréal

Pascal

[jmelson]

Hi all,

This restoration project is obviously a labour of love. I'm surprised that the wing markings (top) do not reflect the correct style that was used. Also, painting the wing RLM 71 when it is apparent that this aircraft along with 120076 and 120086 show a 'vivid' dark green colour upper surface. This 'different' shade of green is visible on the wing under the engine nacelle on all three aicraft. In the case of 120086 it was shown that the entire wing was this colour.
So, often the final touches detract from all the great work that was done....much like the wrong style roundel etc. on the CF-105 Avro Arrow replica and the '35' on the Me262 restoration.

Cheers,
John

[NC900A8]

Bonjour Pascal and all,

Thus by looking at the site of Memorial-Flight-Aassociation, you saw that the wings are entirely in dark green RLM70 (I wrote by error 71) and blue RLM65. These wooden wings come well from a subcontractor carpenter localised around the principal factory at Vienna –Mareinhe .
It is true that the principal aeronautical factories conformed to the new paintings required by the RLM, like the RLM81 and 82. But these large companies, by receiving their batches of new paintings, and to make economies, transferred their old paintings towards the small factories like carpenters..... which used them, even at the end of the war.
If you look at our site, you will find the photographs of two hoodings of the engine which are well in RLM81/82, therefore in conformity with the directive of camouflage of He 162, as my friend Ken Merrick in his last book tells it on the camouflages at “Classic books”. For our fuselage, it will be a surprise in the current of the year 2007!
This strange camouflage is, today, only avalable for our 120015, one of the first He 162 built at Marienhe.
For the 120076 and 120086, I hope the upper wings camouflage was painted in RLM82/81....the carpenter was perhaps different !
Also the air-entrance of 120086 she is in RLM02, like our 120015.
For me, the splinter camouflage on 120076 is Canadian, not German, same thing for the Chino’s 162.
Best regards from France,
Philippe

[DaveM2]

The wing crosses are applied as they were found on the aircraft during restoration, different styles for the upper and lower wings.

Dave

[NC900A8]

Yes Dave!

Exactly what we found during the cleaning of old paint.

Remenber also that the very first He 162 of the serie 120 received on the fuselage the small b&w cross.
And also the two tails were green......with the "WNr." painted in white.

Sorry I work this night, but it is time to take the road before going to my bed!!!

See you later!

Philippe

[SMF144]

Philippe,

NO! The original upper wing camouflage on the wings of 76 and 86 were and are not 81/82!!!! And, the intake for the engine pod of 86 is not 02 like yours. End of story.

Stephen

[NC900A8]

Hi Stephen,

I just say "I hope", not "I am sure" for the upper wings color.

But Here is a photo showing part of the upper wings of 120086.

For you what is this color: RLM70, 81 or 82?

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/9183/120086cjx1.jpg

[SMF144]

http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/he162sf_1.htm

And I have a slew more photos that I did not post with this announcement.

Stephen

[SMF144]

Philippe, et al,

Further to my previous post:

Actually, it’s no colour; well German that is. I suspect what you are seeing is an attempt, possibly by the RAF, to make 86 presentable for display in Hyde Park? The reason why I say this, if you study the markings on 86, the original ones were painted over by the RAF with roundels, most likely on the continent. Then, sometime later, maybe in England, the roundels were been painted over and representative German national markings were applied. As can be seen on the fuselage of 86, I suspect some effort was made to match the original German colours.
Both 76 and 86 came to Canada more or less wearing their original camouflage. When the national aviation museum, god bless them, repainted 76, they did it as a complete unit. Consequently, and lucky for us, the area covered by the engine pod wasn’t touched and the original camouflage is still present. (See attached images)
If you can, Phillipe, head to Aero Vintage’s work shop to study the wing before they strip it.
As a side note, my observations of 86 prove that the upper wing surface was not painted in two colours as per the official guide.

http://img440.imageshack.us/my.php?image=120076209gj.jpg

http://img440.imageshack.us/my.php?image=120076110qq.jpg

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/5048/app00001jw2.jpg

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/9497/app0002vz2.jpg

Stephen

[Pascal Abbet]

Hi folks,
Once again!

The picture (see below He 162 white 21) shows the presumed undersurfaces of the 120015. The cross looks like the bold type, the same as seen on the white 3 (see second picture).
Philippe, could you confirm me you fin thin cross type during the restoration process. If it'is the case, how could you explain the difference between the picture and the present wings?

Concerning the restaoration schedule, when do you expecte to complete the project.

I'm looking forward to your answer and your coming publication about the He 162 (120015).

Best regards

Pascal

((Pictures from Defending the Reich, The history of JG 1 "Oesau", E. Mombeeek, JAC Publications, 1992)

[NC900A8]

Hi Stephen and Pascal,

My photo show a very small part of the wing of 120086, only taken in november 2006!! by the team of the Canadian Museum in order to help us for the restoration of 120015!
I am sure that this small part have the original german paint, as you can see on the bottom some original german markings for the fuel tank.
But I am OK with you, the german cross were overpainted during the Hyde park show, so the 'green color' near the actual german cross is an english green!
Stephen, the wing's photo with the splinter camouflage show the wing, not of 120086, but of 120076.

Pascal, I know those two photos, with the all black cross, but our wings have not this sort of cross, sorry but we discovered under the 4 french paint the original cross, like you can see at our MFA site.
Don' remenber that tail , fins and wings were easy go from one to another plane!
For our 120015, one fin come from 120223, one from 31005 and the ejection seat from 120231!!But the wings come really from 120015, as we find "15" on the wings.

The story of the 162 camouflage is difficult!

[SMF144]

Philippe,

Thanks for your reply to my post. I am well aware that the two pictures I supplied of 76's wing are just that. I posted them to prove a point about the colour of the upper wing surface. Please re-read my post. The other point I am trying to make by positng these photos is not aimed at the post war splinter camouflage repaint, but the surface directly underneath the engine pod; see where the red arrow is pointing.

Now, I am not sure how many photos the staff at the National Aviation Museum Canada provided, but obviously they didn't know what they were looking at because it shows in the photo that you have posted. (It is not, repeat, not the original German camouflage colour) I know, because I have dealt with the staff and there is no in-house expert on the He.162!

In regards to 120086, the point I am trying to get across is the fact that the upper wing surface is a vibrant dark green, possibly RLM 82? Also, it proves that the wing was painted in one colour and not, I repeat, not segmented as per the official RLM guide.

As for 76, I have no idea what is under the post war splinter repaint, but, the only evidence we have of original camouflage paint is the surface area under the engine pod, which is similar to that of 86. I can only assume that the original paint on 76 is the same as shown on 86. (Which, again, is a vibrant dark green).

As of note, the camouflage on the horizontal tail plane of 86 is not, and I repeat, not segmented. The starboard elevator is RLM 81, top and bottom, whereas the port elevator is RLM 81 on top and and RLM76 on the bottom. (I suspect the port elevator is a replacement because the photo on page 10 of the Monogram Close-up 11 taken at Leck shows 86 with what appears to be a missing the port elevator.)

I really hope your project goes well.

Stephen

[NC900A8]

Stephen,

Many thanks for your reply!!

Here is another photo from the 120086:
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/4019/120086bmk5.jpg

You can see on the right around the post-war german croos, the "englsh green", and on the left side the original german color.

Like you, I am sure that the wings are painted in one color, possibly the RLM82.

Do you want a photo of 120015's cockpit? My first 1989 restoration?
We must restore it again, it will be more easy in 2007 than in 1989, as the fuselage is now on the circular jig!

[SMF144]

Hi Philippe,

Thanks for the photo of the fuselage. I too have taken many photos of 86 and am glad that I did because of it's rarity.

Sure, please send along a photo of the cockpit of 015; I'd appreciate that.

What's interesting with the fuselage photograph is it shows the differences between the two greens (wing and fuselage) and the colour on the fuselage is defintely more of a olive colour. Also, your photo shows a thick layer of dust, mine also, and this does have an effect when taking pictures with a flash. In order to study 086 it needs to be professionaly cleaned.

Hopefully some day this will happen because it will certainly advance our knowledge in late war German camouflage colours.

Stephen

[NC900A8]

Hi Stephen,

Here is the promised photo showing the cockpit restored in 1989, when this plane "was the 120223", but now the real 120015:

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/4049/fl20723he162wnr120015anx5.jpg

Sorry I must left the forum now, but I will come the next week!

[O.Menu]

And here an updated beta list about the He 162 found at Leck...

Happy to see you there Philippe, can't wait to learn the final identity from 120015... As you will see i bet more for 'white 1' than 'white 21' but you have the clue! Perhaps a third one? :)

Greetings
Olivier.

[NC900A8]

Hi Olivier,

Don't forget in your He 162 file to notice my two other papers in
"Aeroplane monthly-April and May 2006,
Flugzeug Classic -July and August 2006"

About the color of individual code number, remenber that all he 162 fuselage are not painted in the same camouflage color!
If you look closely in lines of He 162 at Leck, you can see some fuselages in darker color, some are painted in "classic RLM76", some in RLM65 and some in the famous derivative RLM76 like "duck-egg-green".
So It is very difficult to be sure that the code is in white or in yellow!

As we are preparing a book on the restoration of 120015, you will see that after the final restoration, surely in 2008.

[SMF144]

Philippe,

Will the book be available in English?

Stephen

[NC900A8]

Stephen,

It's a very good idea!
Today it is only a project with the photos"s legend in english, like also a summary.
Pehaps also a sumary in german?

All is possible!!, but not before the end of restoration...........no date today...........restoring a plane is a very hard job if you want to work perfectly like in 1945.

[Simon Schatz]

Hi folks!

Just short, as I'm little busy at the moment!

Olivier! Thank you for the updated list! I'm currently also working on an update of the list, as I have got some new information from Manfred Griehl. I'm also doing a list with camouflage and markings notes!

Just one think I can tell now: Have a detailed look at the fin of White 5! It's the one and only He 162 I have ever seen with two different coloured vertical fins. Left one is RLM 76 and right one RLM 82. As original Junkers fins were RLM 76 I think the right one was a replacement from another plane! 310078 could be possible as there were some other Bernburg planes with such high werknumbers.

Don't forget that 310018 made an emergency landing on April 1st near Nurnberg. So maybe 310018 never joined JG 1. Would be interesting what happend to the other 2 planes (310002 and 310006) and their pilots.

Philippe, are you really sure with the Balkenkreuze on the lower side of the wing? I have a picture showing white 3 (120028 ). There you can see the old style of the Balkenkreuz. As the other White 3 (W.Nr 1200XX) and other planes of the early series had these style of Balkenkreuz why should have 120015 other markings?

Cheers, Simon

[NC900A8]

Hi Simon,

I have no explication at this time!
We are only sure, after cleaning the 4 french paints, to discover the original german paint, because after this last paint we discovered the wood structure of the wing!
Sorry , but like you, I know this photo, but I am in front of the reality of a plane just in front of me!!
I am not front of a B&W photo, but a real He 162.
And this wing is RLM 65 and RLM 70.
Wait after the book so you will see the photos, not before!

[O.Menu]

Have a detailed look at the fin of White 5! It's the one and only He 162 I have ever seen with two different coloured vertical fins. Left one is RLM 76 and right one RLM 82.

Yes, saw that also... It's already noted inside the above list ;) Note also that there is not any W.Nr. on this green right fin...

But it's not the only one...

When it had been pictured at Leck, 120223 "yellow 1" was under repair with a missing wing tip on it's left wing and with a new green fin and rudder on the right side!

Strangely when 120015 had been examinated in 1970 it was discovered the W.Nr.120223 painted in black on it's right rudder!!!
But with good eyes you will see from the photo that a white swastika is visible under the black one, so the original fin color was green. (Interesting to note how the white swastika was slightly higher and bigger than the latter black one. They are both in correct size and position so it's not a post war French job)

The 120015 right rudder in 1970 thanks to Jean-Claude Mermet: http://modelarchives.free.fr/photoscopes/HE162/HE_06_empennages.JPG

Conclusion: After surrender Germans gave helps to fly, to repair but also to finish the painting and marking job. Jean-Claude Mermet told me that it was the Germans who added the red arrow on nose from 120086 and "yellow 3" after surrender. On this same way it seems that they also try to finish to repair 120223, including the overpainting from it's green right rudder with RLM76 and the corresponding black markings.

Cheers, Olivier

[O.Menu]

For our 120015, one fin come from 120223, one from 31005 and the ejection seat from 120231!!


Hi Philippe!

This is one more proof that the French 120093 is actually 120231 "white 6" with only the tail from 120093. It has the same unpainted front fuselage, the same dark nose, the same white roundel at the end of the rear fuselage and so on... The "white 2" visible on the fuselage side doesn't exist at all, it's an optic illusion, all it's edges are made by the batch of wires... And IMHO 120093 can't have the RATO attachement points visible on the photo, which very probably appear only with the 120201 batch...

[NC900A8]

Hi Olivier,

Wait the futur book, please!!

The photo, via J.C.Mermet, is not a high resolution photo.
I have better one from J.M.Goyat, in b&w and also in color.............and sorry I don't see any white swastika, only the original b&w one, and in 2005, we discovered again this swastika.........always in b&w configuration.

It is the problem, again and again, to study camouflage via photos, and to see camouflage on a real plane.

Best wishes Olivier!

[O.Menu]

Philippe i post the link from JCM because it's the only one i know on the web... I saw in "Couderchon, P., 0ct/Nov 2005: Aviation Française Magazine N°6 " one of the color picture from R.Goyat colection and the white swastika is quite clearly there... You perhaps not found it again recently simply because it was erased during the the 1970 cleanning work done before 120015 was repainted as yellow1... I suppose the aircraft was pretty well cleaned only with the most important markings kept untouched...

The photo from 120223 at Leck with a green fin on it's right side is visible inside "Myhra David, 1999: Heinkel He 162 – X planes of the third reich series, Schiffer Military History, Atglen, 96p."

To wait until 2008 will be a long time to wait ;)

[NC900A8]

Hi Olivier,

In first, about the photo taken in 1975 and showing the right fin of the 120015 during its first partial restoration, I just look my others high resolution photos, so I can confirm that the upper white swastika is not the original german one painted in 1945, but the one painted in 1960 by the Musée de l'Air!!
Effectivly, this white swastika is painted just on the SNCAC emblem (painted only in 1947), not under.
You can see the original one painted in black at lower position and under the grey color of the fin!
Sorry, but again in 2005, we re-discovered this, always at the same position!

For the question about the real 12223, a first photo taken at Leck just before the english soldiers arrived, show this plane with its two original fins in grey and with its complet tips.
After this plane have a "ground accident", the left tip was missing and the right fin was replaced by another green one. (perhaps one from 120015!!)
And, now, we have this "12223 original grey fin" on the 120015.

For the french n°3, the 120093, I have no confirmation as it was the real 120231 or not.........the big problem is that we have not photo of each He 162 at Leck in April/May 1945!

[NC900A8]

Hi Olivier,

On this photo taken in spring 1975, the "white svastika", painted by the Musée de l'Air in the 1960's:

<a href="http://img252.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lebourget1975before1ya.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/9223/lebourget1975before1ya.th.jpg" border="0" alt="Free Image Hosting at www.ImageShack.us" /></a>

In first the original subject was the camouflage wings of the 120076, so it is preferable to speak about this 120076.

For the 120015, you must have patience until 2008!!!

[O.Menu]

No problem Philippe, i just doesnt know about this 1960 camo ;) And after a second close examination this white swastika was sligtly not high enough as well as not perfectly vertical to be German...

Very strange to see that this supposed broken fin is not!

The only explanation would be that:
1/ 120223 goes to the repair place cause of its broken wing tip and there give its right bleu fin to another plane which is among the five given to the French. >> if true and if it's the only element we have to say that 120223 came in France then 120223 perhaps never came in France >> need to check

2/ sometimes later, perhaps only after surrender, a new green fin was added to 120223

Cheers

[NC900A8]

Sorry Olivier for the photo,

The good connexion is:

http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/9223/lebourget1975before1ya.jpg


Philippe

[O.Menu]

Quote
"The only explanation would be that:
1/ 120223 goes to the repair place cause of its broken wing tip and there give its right bleu fin to another plane which is among the five given to the French. >> if true and if it's the only element we have to say that 120223 came in France then 120223 perhaps never came in France >> need to check

2/ sometimes later, perhaps only after surrender, a new green fin was added to 120223"

>>

This would explain why, except from the two A-1 "red 7" and "yellow 5", we have four W.Nr. (120015, 120093, 120223 and 120231) for only three He 162.

Then the three flyable French one would have been:
N°1 = 120093 "unknown fuselage number"
N°2 = 120015 "white 22?" with right fin from 120223
N°3 = 120231 "white 6"

(N°1 and N°3 could have been inverted depends from which one show RATO attachement points on photos - And in any case if N°1 doesn't have RATO it can't be 120223...)

(120015 can't be white 21 since white 21 is pictured at Leck with a later camo than the one awaited for 120015, can't be white 1 since marking are not on the correct emplacement. And white 22 probably had JG1 emblem painted on the front fuselage same as white 21)

[O.Menu]

Philippe, excuse all my brain storming, better probably to wait the book... And the new 120015 :)

Greetings, Olivier.

[SMF144]

Olivier,

There’s nothing wrong with being curious or trying to brainstorm, keep it going. Just realize that Philippe is most likely withholding information for the unveiling of the aircraft in 2008.

Stephen