POWs, The Soviet Union, Poland and Annie Applebaum.

[Franek Grabowski]

The reply from Marsayo is indeed very important.
While I cannot discuss the number at the moment, there is a vaery important thing said about filtration camps. From Marsayo's post we can lear that last POWs left them in March 1945, 10 months after the end of the war. To make it clear for our Western readers, this was not equal to demobilisation.
This means, that POWs remained imprisoned(!) for quite a lenghty period of time. Now, we arive to the differencies, so hardly acceptable by Andrey. Allied POWs remained as such as long as there was a transport available. Questioning procedure existed but it was a quick filling of a form. In case of any doubts a man could have been called back, but there was no reason to hold him behind the wire. They were quickly released and attached to units or demobbed. Just a different approach to a human being.
The same difference that could be shown on example of aviation designers. We all know, what is an award to a successfull designer - his design goes to production, he becames famous, gets profits, perhaps awards. What was the position of a Soviet designer? He could have been released from a prison! Should we consider both cases perfectly normal? Andrey, whom you are trying to prove being an idiot?
There is also an important note of reconstruction, dismantling and labour units in Marsayo's post. This is an euphemism for penal units, but not to be confused with shtrafbats, eg. of Gu-ga novel. Those were forced labour units subordinated to army and working on military installations. They often consisted of 'unstable material' like Poles or Ukrainians drafted befor the German invasion. A kind of different name for the same job.
Also a very interesting reading on impact of Soviet POWs on Gulag's infrastructure is in Anne Applebaum's 'Gulag'. The book is important because it is both based on official documents but also because it is quite easily available to Western readers.
A very interesting sentence written by Andrey in the context must be quoted here.
The tale about his gulag experience was created in late 80s - early 90s, when such stories were fashionable.
I think all our friends from the Eastern Europe, including for example Czechia, Hungaria, Poland, Rumania or Slovakia, may testify, that more less at the time it became not an offence to openly talk about participation in combats in the West, fighting the Soviets or Soviet reppressions. Of course, it caused some disproportions, obvious when the one takes in mind that those subjects were not existent for a half of century. It is obvious that there was some fashion, 'Dark Blue World' being a sample of it, but it does not mean it was not the truth.
I may agree that perhaps some accounts are exagerated, that the scale was actually smaller but it does not mean that those stories were invented because of 'fahion'.
Given the fact, the current president of Russia is originating from CheKa of many names, but still the same organisation responsible for Gulags, mass murderings, genocide and controlled virtually every aspect of life (to some critics of Bush - you really do not know what are you talking about), I have no illusions that dissapearance of old 'gulag fashion' could be actually another fashion to be in accordance with the current government.
Finally, not POW related but otherwise significant quote from Marsayo.
Of the total repatriated 4,199,488 had been filtered by 1 March (1,539,475 of them pows) and 57.8% had been released to go home, 19.1% had been reassigned to army units, 14.5% were working in reconstruction units, 6.5% (272,867 people) had been detained in NKVD camps and 2.1% were working in special teams dismantling industrial sites in Poland and germany for transport to the USSR.

Our Russian friends usually like to show the Red Army as a liberators of Poland. Well, I can understand that they were dismantling installations in Germany, at last it was a conquered country. But why they were doing that in 'liberated' Poland? Perhaps we will hear that it was built or modernised by Germans. Perhaps. But just see what could have happened if Britons and Americans had removed every factory back to foundations in a country which suffered from 6 years of occupation and a moving front. I would not call it a friendly behaviour, do you?
Regards
PS Yes, I think it was that Golubyev. IIRC he was burned and bailed out thus becoming POW.

[Jukka Juutinen]

Do you consider Anne Applebaum an objective researcher? According to the info in the book her background suggests very strict pro-capitalist ideals.

[Franek Grabowski]

Well, is there anything like objective researcher? ;)
Having someone named Applebaum I would rather expect him/her being pro-Soviet not depending on background nor position.
While it is not a scientifical work, I consider it a very valuable position. It is footnoted, it does reffer to documents but to make it readable, large part of the book are various accounts. It is not suffering from an emotional approach, which is inevitable with such authors like Herling-Grudziński or Solzhenicyn. Having in mind that no other valuable and scientific books are not available to Western readers due to language problems, and due to fact the Western universities seem more Soviet rather than CheKa, I highly recommend that book.
I suggest to have a look in a library and then to buy it if necessary on the shelve.

A post scriptum to previous comments of Andrey Dikov.
Today, about 30 people protested by the Polish embassy in Moscow.
Reason - they negated NKVD responsibility for Katyn Massacre and accusted Soviet government, that in 1988-1991 they prepared false documents proving Soviet guilt.
Reputedly they have documents and witnesses claiming about 8000 Polish POWs worked on 26 June 1941 building a Minsk-Moscow highway.
Among protesters was Yuriy Mukhin, a publicist, often quoted by Russians in historical discussions.
Draw your own conclusions, what is a fashion and what is not.

[Mazila]

Franek

Can you explain what is your problem with Katyn?

Russian government have admitted the execution of poles in 1940.

What else do you poles need? Money?

Believe me, being unfriendly to poles and generally despising them because of the long history of bad relations most people won't protest about "falsing documents" or whatever because nobody really cares.

This subject is not a fashion it's not even important, you see?

Some stupid commies (30 people, which is nothing for 150 mln country) have got another view on this matter and had a small meeting.

I do understand that such careless about Poland and poles is exactly what makes you guys generally unhappy, but it's a bitter truth.

[Ruy Horta]

Having someone named Applebaum I would rather expect him/her being pro-Soviet not depending on background nor position.

Why Franek, this remark makes me curious?

Pot meeting kettle?

[Mazila]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski
Having someone named Applebaum I would rather expect him/her being pro-Soviet not depending on background nor position

Why Franek, this remark makes me curious?



Because poles enemies are lined up as follow:

Jews
Russians
Germans
Poles themselves

[Franek Grabowski]

Ruy
We may find it politically correct or not, justified or not, etc., but the term of Judeocommunism does exist. It is a fact that Jewes had a substantial participation or sympathies towards communism, not depending on their social position. People like Trocki, Hammer or Rosenbers are just too well known and those are only representatives. Sorry, but I find a comment that Mrs Applebaum is not objective because of her background I find just ridiculous. Oh, and before more comments appear, we are fully awared of Mr Arthur Rubinstein's origin and we are fully awared of his famous concerto.

Mazilla
You are oversimplifying the problem and also directing it on wrong tracks. My point was and is only directed towards the approach of some Russians, definetelly more than those 30 idiots, as you rightly call them, toward their own history. Soviet system, which was to some degree a continuation of previous tzarist one, was extremally opressive towards Russians themselves. It was so wild and inhumane, that it is hard to compare it with anything. But Russians do not try to settle accounts, they try to excuse it. There were several Russian patriots, with whom I would not necessarilly find a common language, but who did a lot to either freed Russia or to change the approach to it. They are regarded traitors at best. There were several important figures in aviation, like Galitzine, Rozanoff or Sikorski, who are remembered by Britons, French or Americans but not Russians. Why? Because they were not members of VKP(b)?
By the way, author of Gu-ga (a history of a youth who went into a penal battalion - recommended) was a Red Army veteran, a Jew and passed away in Israel. Would you consider him a traitor, a man writing because of fashion or a liar? Would you say, that Golubyev, a Russian, was a liar who did such comments because they were in fashion?
Perhaps Western or Polish view of Russia and Soviet Union is distorted, definetelly it is exagerrated, but I have no doubt that it is still closer to the truth.

[Jukka Juutinen]

Well, according to her publisher´s site, Applebaum has received paychecks from e.g. Economist, a die hard pro-capitalism journal. And as the truth is that whose soup you eat, his songs you sing, you can easily evaluate her objectivity when writing on an anti-capitalist ideology.

[Franek Grabowski]

Jukka
Economics have nothing to the communism, the latter are die hard liberals in Poland. ;)
Truly, seeing the background of several commie supporters, I would never draw such conclusions.
More importantly, the subject of Gulags is quite far from economy but some aspects of it. Making such a detailed propaganda piece would have been too hard for her, judging by similar biased works I have been reading.
Jukka, just borrow it in a library, and then let us know, what do you think about it.

[Andrey Dikov]

Hello, Franek,

Just one and last reply to this thread, because you gradually move the discussion to political offtopic.

>While I cannot discuss the number at the moment, there is a vaery important thing said about filtration camps. From Marsayo's post we can lear that last POWs left them in March 1945, 10 months after the end of the war. To make it clear for our Western readers, this was not equal to demobilisation.

Naturally! Keeping in mind a number of Soviet collaborants – up to 1 million according to some estimates: not only Hiwi units, SS divisions, so-called Kossack and Caucasian divisions, but a large number of local Polizei members. There are a lot of evidences, that the latter were responsible in a lot of purges on occupied territories of Belarus, Estonia, Latvia and Ukraine – against jews, partisans etc. Some of them were judged, some, after a long investigations, released.


>This means, that POWs remained imprisoned(!) for quite a lenghty period of time. Now, we arive to the differencies, so hardly acceptable by Andrey. Allied POWs remained as such as long as there was a transport available. Questioning procedure existed but it was a quick filling of a form. In case of any doubts a man could have been called back, but there was no reason to hold him behind the wire. They were quickly released and attached to units or demobbed.

See above about collaborants. Do you know something about SS Division Scottland or SS Division Alabama? I don’t.


> Just a different approach to a human being.

Different, but not so much dramatically you try to present it.



>The same difference that could be shown on example of aviation designers.

We weren’t talking about the fates of aviation designers and Stalin repressions in general. We’re talking about the fates of former POWs, aviators. Don’t try to change the subject of discussion, please.


>There is also an important note of reconstruction, dismantling and labour units in Marsayo's post. This is an euphemism for penal units, but not to be confused with shtrafbats, eg. of Gu-ga novel. Those were forced labour units subordinated to army and working on military installations. They often consisted of 'unstable material' like Poles or Ukrainians drafted befor the German invasion. A kind of different name for the same job.


You’ve answered your question by yourself. It’s not an euphemism and it’s not a gulag (you was talking about previously). They were still in army, and should be used.

By the way, what do Gu-Ga novel have with Gulag or the fate of former POWs? Have you read it or at least seen the movie? In this novel the cadet of aviation school made a military crime during a war time period (hijacked the plane for his private purposes). He was judged and sent to penalty [infantry] battalion to the frontline. There he fought one combat and, according to law, rehabilitated himself this way.

What do you appeal to?


>Of course, it caused some disproportions, obvious when the one takes in mind that those subjects were not existent for a half of century. It is obvious that there was some fashion, 'Dark Blue World' being a sample of it, but it does not mean it was not the truth.
I may agree that perhaps some accounts are exagerated, that the scale was actually smaller but it does not mean that those stories were invented because of 'fahion'.


It’s great you understand some “disproportions, fashion and exaggeration” in those readings of those times. That was just I was trying to talk about.

Do you see that your initial thesis about “all pows sent to gulag” is some kind of exaggeration comparing to Marsyao’s post? Such disproportions makes a great sense and change the view absolutely. And that’s the point.


>Given the fact, the current president of Russia is originating from CheKa of many names,

I don’t like him too, at least during last three years, but not for his roots (KGB service). Although it’s a great off-topic over here and I don’t know what do you want to tell by this sentence about Putin, regarding our discussion.


>Our Russian friends usually like to show the Red Army as a liberators of Poland. Well, I can understand that they were dismantling installations in Germany, at last it was a conquered country. But why they were doing that in 'liberated' Poland? Perhaps we will hear that it was built or modernised by Germans.

Had you forgot, that SU gave Poland a vast lands of Germany? There were a lots of industry plants on former German territories, excluding those ones organized by Germans in Poland during the war.


> Perhaps. But just see what could have happened if Britons and Americans had removed every factory back to foundations in a country which suffered from 6 years of occupation and a moving front. I would not call it a friendly behaviour, do you?


Do you know that most of European part of Soviet territory, several times bigger than Poland and Germany, suffered from most destructive occupation and massive combat actions during those three years? And suffered enormous losses in that struggle, which just can’t be compared with any Ally (only with Germany)?


>PS Yes, I think it was that Golubyev. IIRC he was burned and bailed out thus becoming POW.

Negative. Just some mistake. Vasiliy Golubev wasn’t POW ever. Victor Golubev – as well wasn’t.



>Having in mind that no other valuable and scientific books are not available to Western readers due to language problems,

…And because modern studies on this subject is still not fashionable among Western publishers.


>Today, about 30 people protested by the Polish embassy in Moscow.
Reason - they negated NKVD responsibility for Katyn Massacre and accusted Soviet government, that in 1988-1991 they prepared false documents proving Soviet guilt.
Reputedly they have documents and witnesses claiming about 8000 Polish POWs worked on 26 June 1941 building a Minsk-Moscow highway.
Among protesters was Yuriy Mukhin, a publicist, often quoted by Russians in historical discussions.


>Draw your own conclusions, what is a fashion and what is not.

As Mazila stated it’s just a pile of modern commi. And over here Mukhin regarded as unserious, politically-biassed writer (like Rezun, Beshanov and many more).

You better look at what happens in Paris now.


>It was so wild and inhumane, that it is hard to compare it with anything.

Let me guess… May be Nazi one, or Pol-Pot?

At least we see in this discussion that not every pow was sent to gulag. Not bad. Although I hope we won’t dissipate all your prejudicies on TOCH board.

>There were several important figures in aviation, like Galitzine, Rozanoff or Sikorski, who are remembered by Britons, French or Americans but not Russians. Why? Because they were not members of VKP(b)?

Rubbish. Every aviation enthusiast know them over here and a number of books was published, and every aviation periodical has a column dedicated to pre-1918 period.


>Perhaps Western or Polish view of Russia and Soviet Union is distorted, definetelly it is exagerrated, but I have no doubt that it is still closer to the truth.

Doesn’t matter is it distorted by former Soviet views or former and modern “west” views. It’s just distorted.

“The truth is out here” (c).

P.S. It was a surprise to read your racist post. Really surprising words from such “western” liberal like you. Just another brick in a wall of Polish views on history.

BTW, Grabowskiy – is rather jewish-like name over here.

[Franek Grabowski]

Andrey
Policy of treatment of POWs is politics - just that simple. Politics is just around us and we cannot say, we are not interested in discussing it. It is childish.
Now to discuss th phenomena of Soviet/Russian approach to the subject.
Yes, the number of Soviet collaborants is really impressive. This says a lot of the country, if so many soldiers decide to fight against it, especially having no illusions what will happen with them if they loose.
The problem is not there though, and you try to escape it. People, who spend all their time in POW camps were a subject of throughrough investigation as well. And this is that dramatic difference, which you cannot understand for some reason. The difference which is also illustrated by purges and mistreatment and thousands of other crimes committed.
It is also your approach, so typical for Soviet propaganda, to misquote myself. I never mentioned Gulag as institution solely responsible for mistreatment of people. My note about purpose of Stroibatallions is still valid. Your explanation, that if someone is in the army and in a eg. in military prison, is not a prisoner is weird. Weird but not untypical.
Your comment about generous Soviet gift of German lands is another classic of Soviet propaganda. This is a blatant lie because it was a British idea and supported by all victorious powers, ie. UK, US and SU. Also, for some reason, you do not mention that even more land was grabbed from Poland by the very same SU.
Explanation, that the SU suffered most and that is why it robbed Poland of any industry is in the very same class. Poland was attacked in 1939 by joint forces of Germany and SU. The war resulted for Poland with substantial cultural, human, idustrial and territorial losses. Then Soviets came, fought the people, send them to Siberia, robbed any industry that remained and even ordered war reparations from Poland! That is what they called (and still call) a liberation. Feel free to ask anyone here from countries liberated by UK or US troops to explain those minor differencies as you call them.
All those lies were repeated all over the existence of Soviet Union. When the latter collapsed, people started to talk about what was forbidden. You call it 'fashion', I call it freedom. You say that there is no such a 'fashion' any more. You also note that you find nothing wrong with Putin being a member of KGB. The latter organisation, under various names, is directly responsible for the crimes that occured since the beginning of Soviet Russia. It is also partially responsible for the Pol-Pot crimes and many other murderings that occured outside of Russia/SU. Apart of that, KGB took care that the people will not talk anything in disagreement with party line. If I hear you explaining that some 'fashions' dissapeared in the current Russia, it sounds sinister for me.
Finally some explanation, as you 'attacked' me personally. Grabowski is a most typical and one of the most common Polish names. If you find it Jewish, well, it is your problem, I just only hope you are not trying to discredit me, because of my (supposed) origin. Personally, I do not find anything wrong with anyone being Jewish. On the other hand, I find it obvious historical fact, that the support of communism was particularly high among Jewes (this also discussed by Applebaum). Just as obvious as the one, the Germans democratically elected Hitler. If you find this a racism, it is not my problem. Let me only note that Jewishness is national or religious criterion. Jewes belong to white or semitic race depending on definition together with eg. Arabics. Therefore my comments cannot be considered racial ones, unless you do not have any other argument.

[Mazila]

Then Soviets came, fought the people, send them to Siberia, robbed any industry that remained and even ordered war reparations from Poland! .

Just curious

Was it any fighting? I've heard about ome AK attacks on Soviet hospitals where all patients were killed, but anything else?

How many people were sent to Siberia?

Was it any noteworthy industry in agricultural Poland? Never heard about such a robbing.

Never heard about any reparation from Poland. Are you serious?

[Franek Grabowski]

Was it any fighting? I've heard about ome AK attacks on Soviet hospitals where all patients were killed, but anything else?

Those patients had tanks and aircraft. There were more Soviet troops in Poland rather than in forces of occupation in Germany and heavy combats continued up until 1947/48. Minor units survived up to 1957. A minor detail here is that AK ceased to exist during the war. Do not believe Soviet propaganda.

How many people were sent to Siberia?

You may find exact data on sites of such organisations like Karta or IPN. They have mirror sites in Russian.

Was it any noteworthy industry in agricultural Poland? Never heard about such a robbing.

Poland started building industry just a few years before the war. You do not expect there was no industry at Poland, do you?
Anyway, everything was either removed and destroyed by Germans or removed and destroyed by Soviets. Mostly by the latter, as Germans had a little time for evacuation.

Never heard about any reparation from Poland. Are you serious?

Absolutelly! Everything turned up a year or so ago when there was a discussion on German demands and possible reparations claim. It was found that up to 1953 Poland had to deliver quantities of coal from Silesia considered as war reparations.

[Mazila]

There were more Soviet troops in Poland rather than in forces of occupation in Germany and heavy combats continued up until 1947/48. Minor units survived up to 1957. A minor detail here is that AK ceased to exist during the war. .

Would you prove it?
It's really doubtful, concidering the existance of communist polish forces and communist polish government being in charge that time.
Anyway the number of soviet troops are not related to polish "resistance"

Everything turned up a year or so ago when there was a discussion on German demands and possible reparations claim. It was found that up to 1953 Poland had to deliver quantities of coal from Silesia considered as war reparations.

I'm not number one in geography, but wasn't Silesia german before and during the war?

If so it means that was reparations from german territories which became polish accidentially.

[Franek Grabowski]

This becomes indeed off topic.

Would you prove it?

What? That the AK did not exist at the time? Anything else? No, I do not think so. Karta, IPN and some more publishers prepared several detailed books on various aspects of post-war (or actually 1943-1957) underground. I suppose you may get them via Russian Memoryal.

It's really doubtful, concidering the existance of communist polish forces and communist polish government being in charge that time.

Large part of those forces were Soviets (practically all the commanding positions) and Soviet troops were necessary to keep the people on the 'goverment' side.

Anyway the number of soviet troops are not related to polish "resistance"

Without Soviet troops communistic goverment would not exist longer than a single day.
Anyway, a question to you, why if a country is 'liberated' to keep there military forces for 50 years?

I'm not number one in geography, but wasn't Silesia german before and during the war?

Most of Upper Silesia (where the coalmines are) was Polish before the war but incorporated into the Third Reich during the war. Do not you have any atlas?

If so it means that was reparations from german territories which became polish accidentially.

Apart of what was noted above, now we find that the gift from Russia, that turned to be British compensation, was an accident. I hope you will agree with me that all those millions of Soviets were killed in an accident rather than the war.

[Boandlgramer]

well, more than OT , but i have a question.
wasn´t there a election in uppersilesia in the year 1921 ( being part of poland or germany ) and almost 60 % voted for germany ?

[Mazila]

Apart of what was noted above, now we find that the gift from Russia, that turned to be British compensation, was an accident. .

Please don't pervert my words and admit that Silesia was a German territory mostly, so there were no reparations from Poland but reparations from the German territories.

Definitely it's difficult to imagine anything that poles could do or get without Russians, Germans or someone else.

Maybe to steal something from the Czech?

And last but not least Belorussians and Ukranians didn't want to live in Poland as well as Silesians so nobody who knows the history won't take seriously your picture of happy Poland before the war.

BTW Soviet troops were in Poland in large numbers because of Cold War, not because of Polish resistance. No need a lot of troops to make poles quiet.

[Juha]

I should stay out of this because this thread is badly OT and far from the original subject but…
Mazila
I have become curious on Your logic. When according to You for example Kuriles and Southern Sahalin became part of Soviet Union / Russia? Sometimes after 1953 or do You think that they are still Japanese territories?

Just curious
Juha

[Mazila]

. When according to You for example Kuriles and Southern Sahalin became part of Soviet Union / Russia? Sometimes after 1953 or do You think that they are still Japanese territories?

Juha

They have been Russian always :) Want to talk over it?

Just kidding, take it easy

Actually Franek didn't prove that there were some reparations from Poland. I just discuss it considering Franek idea that something was delivered from Silseia to SU. But it may had absolutely different reasons for it.

[Juha]

I'll take it easy.
Kuriles happened to have connection to Soviet P-63s, that why I choosed it as an example. No more on this from me.

Juha

[Franek Grabowski]

well, more than OT , but i have a question.
wasn´t there a election in uppersilesia in the year 1921 ( being part of poland or germany ) and almost 60 % voted for germany ?

As usual, there are two versions of the event, ie. plebiscite itself and surrounding events. It was eg. claimed that Germany brought several people to Silesia just to assure proportion being in German favour. It is a fact that there were three uprisings in the area that led to inclusion Silesia to Poland. Obviously, this would not happen without large support among inhabitants. And it is a fact, most of Upper Silesia was in Poland before the war.

Please don't pervert my words and admit that Silesia was a German territory mostly, so there were no reparations from Poland but reparations from the German territories.

Pervert? This clearly shows lacks in your education.
Anyway, since Potsdam and decisions of authorities of UK, USA and SU, those territiories were Polish. The one may like it or not, but that was (and is) a legal status of those lands.
SU robbed both Polish and ex-German lands and demanded reparations from Poland. This is what you call liberation.

Definitely it's difficult to imagine anything that poles could do or get without Russians, Germans or someone else.

Prosperity.

Maybe to steal something from the Czech?

Oh, whenever Russians lack an argument, disputable territories of Cieszyn return! And negroes are beaten in your country!

And last but not least Belorussians and Ukranians didn't want to live in Poland as well as Silesians so nobody who knows the history won't take seriously your picture of happy Poland before the war.

No Ukrainians died of hunger in Poland, there was no Ukrainian underground movement here and Ukrainians spoke Ukrainian and no Russian. Relationships were sometimes good and sometimes tense but still those were rlationships between Poles and Ukrainians and not Russians.

BTW Soviet troops were in Poland in large numbers because of Cold War, not because of Polish resistance. No need a lot of troops to make poles quiet.

A very interesting euphemism. Polish government and Polish troops remain on the West, Soviet troops are based in quantities in Poland, SU supports a puppet government formed of NKVD agents or Russians, Polish underground fights hopelessly aginst new occupants. Why Soviets are in Poland? Because of COLD WAR! Interesting.

PS You are going off topic!

[Boandlgramer]

yes, almost every time there are 2 versions of an story.
but of course, your version is true. ;)

as Ben Okri once has said:

Nations and People are largely the stories they feed themselves.
If they tell themselves stories that are lies, they will suffer the future consequences of these lies.
If they tell themselves stories that face their own truths, they will free their histories for future flowerings.

[Franek Grabowski]

History is used by politics, so no wonder it suffers. Nonetheless historians' approach should be to look for truth. As to plebiscite, I cannot say anything, I have never researched the period nor seen any documents. There must have been some right on the Polish side though, as Entente finally agreed for correction of the border.
Something completely different is that there is evidence and evidence. Soviets hanged some Germans responsible (according to them) for Katyn massacre. Certainly they have had some evidence but how would you value it?

[Mazila]

Polish government and Polish troops remain on the West, Soviet troops are based in quantities in Poland, SU supports a puppet government formed of NKVD agents or Russians, Polish underground fights hopelessly aginst new occupants. Why Soviets are in Poland? Because of COLD WAR! Interesting.


again, NKVD and later polish KGB or whatever you call it were enough to have poles quiet , large Soviet army forces formed the second attack echelon in case of a scale conflict with NATO and didn't have too much in common with preventing poles in their intension to be free from communism.

[Franek Grabowski]

So why there were Soviet troops in Poznań in 1956?

[Christer Bergström]

Hey, the topic is "Soviet P-63 pilot, escaping with He 111", in the Allied and Soviet Air Forces forum.

I suggest that you continue your political discussions at one of the forums below instead:

www.talk/endlesspolitics.com (http://www.talk/endlesspolitics.com)

www.whoisbest/poland/orgermany.com (http://www.whoisbest/poland/orgermany.com)

www.norespect/forthetopic.com (http://www.norespect/forthetopic.com)

[Christer Bergström]

I think that the thread below has already come rather far from the original, interesting topic concerning the possible appearance of Soviet P-63 Kingcobras in Eastern Europe in WW II. I do not want to became involved in the unproductive yes-no poltical debate, but would merely want to return to the original problem.

Great, Carl-Fredrik! In the absence of active moderation against such trashing of threads, we need to do like you did now. That's why I "bump" this thead forward.

I follow the discussion with great interest (namely "P-63 Kingcobra in VVS in Europe 1945", not Silesian politics).

[Franek Grabowski]

This is Ruy's forum, so it will be him, who will decide if to lock the thread.
I agree it goes way off topic, though.

[Mazila]

So why there were Soviet troops in Poznań in 1956?

Sorry I have no idea I have never heard anything about Poznan in 1956