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Brian Bines
17th June 2013, 17:20
Further to the recent thread on training losses to Mosquitos there is a link to the 418 Sqd. claims to four Ju 52's over the Kattegat by S/L Kipp and F/O Caine. The Airwar Over Denmark site identifies w.n. 3456 and 3414 both of 5/MSG 1 as being lost this day. Is the identity and crew losses of the other two known please,

Thanks

Brian Bines

ju55dk
17th June 2013, 18:12
It's a case of 25% overclaiming. 3 Ju 52 were shot down. One without crew losses.

Junker

Brian Bines
17th June 2013, 18:24
Junker, thanks very much for clarifying this,

Regards

Brian Bines

Matti Salonen
17th June 2013, 19:27
This is a tricky loss. There are three NVMs of the crew with this date, but also on 1944-04-27. I cannot prove, which date is correct:

1944-04-14, Luftzeugamt 1/III, Ju 52/3mg14e, 640205, Zwischen Aalborg-Ost und Kopenhagen-Kastrup, Unbekannt. Bruch 100 %.
Flugzeugführer Ofw Knocke, Gustav, vermißt
Bordfunker Fw Molek, Alfred, vermißt
Bordschütze Fw Kriebel, Heinz, vermißt
Fluggast Lt Welsch, Hans, vermißt
Fluggast A, vermißt
Kriebel von 10./KG 76 und Welsch von I./Lg.Nachr.Regt.Norwegen.

Matti

Brian Bines
17th June 2013, 20:04
Matti thanks for the info. the combat report says Kipp and Caine each destroyed 2 Ju52's, with Kipp saying the three he attacked all had mine detonating rings. Airwar Over Denmark gives crew of 3414 as Ff Olt. Ernst Zwick, B Ofw. Rudolf Prockl BM Ofw. Albert Krapf all picked up but later died , crew of 3436 appears as Ff Ofw. Fritz Greinert, B Ofw.Franz Puchstein Bs Uffz Karl Braunbarth, Bs Uffz Manfred Hartung, Bm Fw Willy Zahm, Bm Flg. Walter Kuhl. Do these tie up with your records ( would one of the Bm's and one of the Bs' belong to 3414?). I take it that the third NVM you refer to is that of the crew of Ofw. Knocke which is dated both for the 14th and 27th April,

Thanks

Brian Bines

Matti Salonen
17th June 2013, 21:05
The two others I have:
1944-04-14, 5./Minensuchst., Ju 52/3m MS, 3414, Südlich Kattegat, Bordwaffenschuß um 15.20 Uhr. Bruch 100 %.
Flugzeugführer Lt Zwick, Ernst,+
Beobachter Fw Frockl, Rudolf, +
Bordwart Ofw Krapf, Albert, +
Flugwerkprüfer Flg Howe, Friedrich, vermißt
Fluggast Ofw Vogelgesang, Helmut, vermißt
Vogelsanf von Fl.H.Kdtr. 101/III.
1944-04-14, 5./Minensuchst., Ju 52/3m MS, 3436, Südlich Kattegat, Bordwaffenschuß um 15.20 Uhr. Bruch 100 %.
Flugzeugführer Ofw Greinert, Fritz, +
Beobachter Ofw Puchstein, Franz, +
Bordmechaniker Fw Zahn, Willi, +
Bordwart Flg Kuhl, Walter, +
Bordschütze Uffz Braunbarth, Karl, +
Bordschütze Uffz Hartung, Manfred, +

The third loss is covered by three NVMs: Knocke, Kriebel and Molek in one, Kribel again in the second and Welsch in the third. In those both dates are mentioned.

Matti

Brian Bines
17th June 2013, 21:51
Matti, thanks very much for this info. It would seem likely that each of the three units with airman missing in 640205 have produced their own NVM and the date for Knocke, Molek and Kriebel of 14-4-1944 would appear correct. All that can be said is that the Kipp/Caine claims for the four Ju 52's would be the two on the Airwar Over Denmark site, the one with no crew losses as the post by ju55dk and a strong possibility the 640205. The Kipp combat report speaks of the first sighting of 5 Ju 52's at sea level,

Thanks Again

Brian Bines

ju55dk
17th June 2013, 22:53
5/MsGrp 1 had one Kette(3 aircrafts) in the air. They were all shot down, in the same area, near Sjællands Odde.
The loss of 640205 is new to me.

Junker

Brian Bines
18th June 2013, 09:51
Thanks Junker, is anything known about the third loss of the 5/MsGrp 1 Kette and the rescue of the crew,

Regards

Brian Bines

ju55dk
18th June 2013, 12:00
Hi Brian.

Yes and you and others will be able to read about it, and a lot of other losses, in my coming book on Luftwaffe Verluste Raum Dänemark 1939-45, wich will be published may 2015. It's a result of 25 years of research, wich will continue to fall 2014.

Junker

Brian Bines
18th June 2013, 12:11
Hi Junker,

Thanks for your help, and look foward to your book,

Cheers

Brian Bines

Andreas Brekken
18th June 2013, 14:40
Hello, Jørn

Pre-order hereby delivered!

Regards,
Andreas B

Stig Jarlevik
18th June 2013, 20:33
Sounds real good Jörn

One fixed sale to Sweden as well :)

Cheers
Stig

PS: Don't forget to keep us posted!!

Chris Goss
15th December 2013, 17:04
Of interest, Puchstein was with 8/KG 51 and shot down & taken POW/released 24 May 40