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andy bird
18th June 2013, 11:10
Have the story of the crew being shot down by Me. 410's on 7th October 1944 and there subsequent rescue. After search for the ditched Beaufighter of 489 Sqn.

But cannot find which Grp the 410's where from?

Any help appreciated.

Kind Regards

Andy Bird

Laurent Rizzotti
18th June 2013, 11:23
This is probably this claim:

07.10.44 Oblt. Langer Seenotgr. 80 Wellington £ 6411: 100 m. 13.00 Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -

Seenotgruppe 80 was equipped with Me 410s, and AFAIK no Wellington was shot down this day.

andy bird
18th June 2013, 15:38
Hi Laurent,

Many Thanks for the info, very useful.

Cheers

Andy

Col Bruggy
18th June 2013, 17:22
Hello,

Warwick BV386 S.O.C. 15/1/1947 !

Warwick I BV290 - 280 Sqn. - Missing on ASR search over North Sea, presumed shot down by Me 410s, 8/10/1944.

A-B BA100 to BZ999 p.120

Col.

andy bird
19th June 2013, 14:33
Col Bruggy,

Opps . . . Mr Pitchfork got that one wrong . . .


Cheers

Andy Bird

Col Bruggy
20th June 2013, 04:43
Hello Andy,

Apologies, neglected to mention:-

Warwick I BV368 - 280 Sqn. - Missing on ASR search over North Sea. Presumed shot down by Me 410s, 8/10/1944.

Same ref.

It looks as if the crew of BV368 were rescued, and the crew of BV290 were lost.

Crew - BV290 (Alpha order):

1600090 Sgt Percy Arthur ALGER RAFVR +
1577581 Sgt Kenneth Stanley COX RAFVR +
1800178 Sgt Stanley Arthur CRACKNELL RAFVR +
1394986 Sgt Leonard FINCH RAFVR +
133951 F/O Albert MASON RAFVR +
154783 F/O Colin John SWANN RAFVR +

All commemorated on the Runnymede Memorial.

No.280 Sqn losses, matched by the following claims:

8/10/1944 - Oblt. Langer - Seenotgr.80 - Wellington - 6467:100m
8/10/1944 - Fhj.Fw. Wehrmann - Seenotgr.80 - Wellington - 6413: 500m

Col.

Laurent Rizzotti
20th June 2013, 10:19
With three Warwicks lost in two days to German fighters, I guess this prompted some debate in the RAF. Has anyone a trace in ORBs of tactic changes or demands for escort to deal with the new threat (Me 410s of Seenotgruppe 80) ?

As far as I know this unit claimed no more victory after 8 October 1944. The only other victory I have for the unit is a Halifax claimed at 1205 hrs on 29 September 1944 E of the Kattegat at 50 m, again by Oblt Langer.

Juha
20th June 2013, 10:42
Interesting
LW's ASR planes shooting down RAF's ASR planes.

Juha

Laurent Rizzotti
20th June 2013, 10:48
Interesting
LW's ASR planes shooting down RAF's ASR planes.

Juha

Actually, the Me 410s were belonging to the "Such-und-Schutzstaffel " of Seenotgruppe 80, literraly "search and protection squadron". AFAIK, it was equipped with Me 410s and was tasked with searching men shot down at sea and then protect floatplanes that will do the rescue.

A similar unit existed in Italy, Seenotgruppe 20, and was equipped with Fw 190s.

Juha
20th June 2013, 10:56
Hello Laurent
yes, I knew that but clearly planes of ASR units and even the designation of the 410 sub-unit begins Such-

And not unique, IIRC there were at least a couple combats between planes on ASR missions already in late 40.

Juha

Col Bruggy
20th June 2013, 11:22
Hello,

It wasn't only No.280 Sqn that was involved in scraps with Me 410s on the 8th October, 1944. No.279 Sqn was also in action.

On 8th October (1944), two Hudsons, F/279, a Mk.III flown by F/Lt Pederson, and D/279, a Mk.VI captained by F/O Carmichael, were carrying out an ASR search when they came under attack from an enemy aircraft identified as either an Me 210 or 410. The fighter was first sighted at a range of 800 yards as it swept round in a wide circle to come in on D/279's starboard beam opening fire at 400 yards and closing to 150 yards before breaking off. While Pederson observed the attack and his gunner fired 50 to 60 rounds at extreme range at the fighter, Carmichael turned steeply to starboard into the enemy fighter with both turret and side gunners returning fire. Several hits were observed on the fighter and D/279 was also damaged in the exchange of fire. While the fighter turned to make another attack on D/279 from low on the port quarter Pederson made his escape into a thin layer of cloud. The fighter was determined, however, and was next sighted attacking from a range of 800 yards dead ahead. Carmichael quickly dived to port and into thicker cloud, where he lost the fighter. It was a lucky escape.

See:
Dinghy Drop:279 Squadron at War 1941-1946.
Docherty,Tom
Barnsley:Pen & Sword,2007.
p.133.

Col.

andy bird
21st June 2013, 09:54
Hello,

The only reference I can find when I've scanned through CCR pages was:

"Looks like we’ve stirred up a hornet’s nest! From now on these Air-Sea Rescue aircrews should conserve ammunition".


Kind Regards

Andy Bird

Laurent Rizzotti
21st June 2013, 11:54
Hello,

The only reference I can find when I've scanned through CCR pages was:

"Looks like we’ve stirred up a hornet’s nest! From now on these Air-Sea Rescue aircrews should conserve ammunition".


Kind Regards

Andy Bird

Does it mean that before these losses, the ASR sorties were flown without ammunition ? In the 279 Sqn case on 8 October 1944 a Hudson gunner fired 50-60 rounds, so at least this aircraft was armed.

andy bird
21st June 2013, 14:12
Laurent

The only thing I can assume is that they are referring to the tendency of ASR crews using 100's of 0.303 rounds to sink unmanned dinghies/life rafts/boats etc., in the coastal waters and be a bit more conservative with their ammo.

(I realise the craft had to be sunk so that no other allied a/c wasted time seeing it it was manned or not.)

Kind Regards

Andy