Your favourite airplanes?

[Juha]

Hello
in a little bit lighter mood. What are Your favourite airplanes? Not the best ones but just favourites. My top 10 are in not any particular order:
Curtiss P-36
Spitfire VIII
Spitfire XIV
Hawker Tempest V
DH Mosquito
Focke-Wulf 190D-9
Boeing B-17
Lavochkin La-7
Mitsubishi J2M
Nakajima Ki-84

I couldn’t make Top 12 but Top 14 would add the following four: P-51B/C with Malcolm hood, Bf 109G-10, P-47D and B-29.

Juha

[Boandlgramer]

i have just few . :)
Focke Wulf 190 A 6
but of course the Dora and the TA series are also fine.

not to forget the Gladiator :D

and to talk about WW1 planes = Fokker D VII

[Juha]

Yes, FW 190A-6 and Fokker D VII were great planes and FW 190A is goodlooking in my eyes.
I'll not comment Gladiator more than that the Finns thought that it was a delight to fly. I'm not personally bi-plane fan, maybe because in my youth I found that the second set of wings and all those wires made things more complicated. What You think about Fiat Cr. 42 and Polikarpov I-153?

Juha

[Boandlgramer]

Juha,
i like almost every biplane .
why ? don´t know, maybe because some years ago when i was a young boy ( i am 40 now ;) ), i have built some , made from wood .


i had the opportunity to visit the messerschmitt foundation in manching (near ingolstadt ) saw the G6 and the G 10 from them but i can´t say, i am a big Bf 109 fan.
visiting also the flugwerk factory ( Fw 190 replicas ) few years ago, had a interview with claus colling .
it was a great pleasure for me to see "real" Focke Wulfs
oh yes, indeed , thats my favorite plane.:)


and to complete my favorite list:
starfighter and Mig 29 in the jet ages.

[Juha]

Hello Boandlgramer,
my favourite biplane is I-153, also JAAF’s Ki-10 looked very aggressive and was very manoeuvrable, IIRC. Of the earlier biplanes, RFC's SE-5a, Germany's Roland C.II Walfisch and Albatross D.III.
On jets, F-104 has the look and was an interesting case. The designers asked what the end-users, i.e. pilots, wanted and put the emphasises to their wishes, i.e. speed, climb rate and simplicity. But USAF and probably also the pilots were not overly happy on the product. But at least pilots got what they had wanted.
My favourites are F-86 Sabre and F-101 Woodoo, the latter wasn’t too much loved by its pilots because it never forgave anything to anybody but for some reason it is one of my favourites, at least it had brute force and it showed it. And as F-104 it could not boast on vast wing area. And I almost forgot F-105, F-106, MiG-19 and MiG-21.

[robert_schulte]

Only two members with favourite planes ? :)
So let me be number three :D

My top ten (no particular order) are:
Fieseler Fi 156
Focke Wulf 187
Ta 152
Me 262
Hurricane
Spitfires without bubble canopy
Wellington
B-17F
P-47D
Catalina
Fiat G55 Centauro

Oops, these are 11.......

Close candidates are Fw 190 D-9, Bf 109 G-10, Halifax Mk.II, P-38, C-47

And I LOVE all biplane fighters :)

Robert

[Boandlgramer]

Juha you talk about the starfighter.
do you own Günther Ralls " Mein Flugbuch " ?
He wrote about the Starfighter and the service of that plane in the Bundesluftwaffe .
Has cost the germans 108 pilots and 8 american pilots in german duty.
Some called it "widowmaker".
Günther Rall did not agree.
He found it was a good plane , a " Pilotenflugzeug" = " Pilots Plane".
Hope when i visit manching the next time, i have the opportunity to talk with a former starfighterpilot then i ask him about his opinion.

[Juha]

Hello Boandlgramer,
my observation was only on USAF and its pilots attitude on F-104, the early versions of it. G was heavier and if IIRC one main reason behind Germany’s interest on it was that it could be used as low level strike fighter bomber. I know the Rall’s opinion on F-104 and I have no problem with that it is one of Your favourites. As I wrote, it had the look, speed and climb rate. And IIRC its safety record in Canadian service was good, maybe even excellent.
If You will meet a Starfighter jockey I’d be glad to hear his opinion.
Own I Günther Ralls " Mein Flugbuch "? A complicated question. I raided a bookshop today and bought among others the Finnish translation of it but I made a deal with my wife, she reimbursed me the cost and I gave the book to her. She is wrapping it and I’ll get it later, appr. 9 days 20 hours waiting time left. One booklet reminded me on one more old biplane favourite, Hs 123. I just was obliged to buy a booklet on it.

Robert, very interesting list
ah that Fi 156, a nice plane indeed. And I have always had a soft spot for old good Wimpy and even for HP Hampden, which is harder to justify.
You seem to have the same Spitfire taste than, was that Lacey. I cannot remember for sure the ace, but he was a sqn CO in Burma theatre and when they got Spit XIVs with bubble canopies he only said “That doesn’t look like a real Spitfire, I’ll not accept these!” So, one other sqn got those XIVs and his sqn flew with their old VIIIs until supply organisation could send highback XIVs from GB to Burma. At least the pilots of the other sqn were happy.
Only one a/c surprised me, Halifax Mk. II. But as these are favourites, so no more on that, but still, why not Mk. III?

Juha

[Boandlgramer]

Hello Juha,
you have a smart wife . ;)

yes , i post his opinion about the starfighter as soon as possible.

best regards.

PS: strange, are we 3 the only people with favorite planes ? :)

[robert_schulte]

Juha,
you are correct, of course I meant the Halifax Mk.III. The radial engines made her a much better plane and also improved the "looking". I always favored the "newer" Halifax above the Lancaster. In my eyes the Halifax is a bit underestimated.

Boandl,
regarding the Starfighter, it was a common joke between the pilots (I knew some in my youth) how to obtain aluminium the easiest way. Buy a plot of land and wait for a Starfighter to fall on it......
The Starfighter was quite an unforgiving plane, but the pilots loved her. She is still one of my favourites!
Post-war favourites are also the B-52, Canberra, F-111 and if I may add some civil planes, the Super Constellation, Do 27 and the Twin Otter. I had the delight to watch a short take-off demonstration of the Twin Otter when I was 6, and I am still impressed!

Robert

[Juha]

Hello Robert
I’m more a Lancaster man but I admit that those Halifaxes with bigger “D” endplates and especially those with Hercules engines were underestimated. I feel that maybe their revaluation has gone a little bit too far. I still believe that Lanc was a better bomber, but I have no difficulty to accept that somebody can have a different opinion on this. And all those Halifaxes with more streamline nose, i.e. without nose turret were rather good-looking birds.

And ah, those Connies, very beautiful planes, also one of my favourites. When ex-LW night-fighter and ex-Lufthansa pilots Spoden and Scheer were in Helsinki, my only question to them was on Connie, I couldn’t help that, even if Ju 88G is also one of my favourites. When I read Eric Brown’s evaluation on 88G I began to understand why Germany concentrated to building them and not He 219, hopefully no He 219 fan take offence on that. And when I read Beamont’s very positive evaluation on 88G I thought that if Bea wrote so positively on non-Hawker WWII a/c, it must have been a very good a/c indeed.
Of civil a/c, I have a couple more favourites, Sud SE 210 Caravelle and DHC Beaver.
And of flying boats, Do 24 and Kawasaki H8K Emily.

[robert_schulte]

Hello Juha,
You are probably right, that the Lanc was the better plane, however I think the Halifax Mk.III was not so far from it. IIRC she was the only plane that could tow a fully loaded Hamilcar. And the crews preferred her for higher surviving rates when hit. And I guess much of the fame of the Lanc comes from that she was the more "popular" plane in public, but maybe I'm wrong.

And those flying boats :) .
I built a Sunderland and a Walrus as a boy and I would love to build a BV 222 nowadays, however the best wife of all says no space for it :rolleyes: But of course the Do 24 and the Emily are also very interesting planes.

BTW, I know the report of Eric Brown on the Ju 88 G in "Wings of the Luftwaffe", but nothing about Beamont's experiences with it. Where did you find it, and would it be possible to give a short summary? The Ju 88 G would have been the next plane in my list ;)

Regards
Robert

[Juha]

Hello Robert,
yes, I agree that both Lanc and Halifax Mk. III were great planes and there were not much to choose between them. I have read that one reason why Lancaster overshadowed Halifax was that the former was more liked by pilots and the top brass of BC tended to be pilots. Also the middle-rankers and those who had flown Halifaxes had flown the early marks and they haven’t understood how much better the Mk. III and VI were than the earlier ones. But I don’t know if this explanation is true.

My third favourite flying boat is Martin PBM-3D Mariner, purely because mid 60s I made a plastic model of it.

Beamont’s Ju 88G experiences are told in one of his book, cannot remember it’s title and I cannot find my copy of it. I must have put it into some odd place. I bought it purely because his test flight experiences during summer 45 only to find out that the same stories are in 1993 Aeroplane Monthlies, which I had bought earlier but which I had not yet read. But the Ju 88G story is in AM Oct 1993 pp 8 – 10. Put it short, there was Ju 88G-1 TP190 (RAF’s serial) at Tangmere and Bea decided to try it. He read the Pilot’s notes but had not talked to anybody who had flown Ju 88. Bea’s earlier twin experience was limited to a few flights in Airspeed Oxfords and a Westland Whirlwind. One flight sergeant shouted the starting instruction through the open floor hatch. After take-off and climb to 4000ft he then try turns, wingovers and dives and then returned to Tangmere. When he was about to try plane’s low speed handling he saw a Mosquito below. Thinking that it might be Bob Braham, Bea opened throttles and turned towards the Mossie. It was Braham and they began a turning fight. Both were in vertical bank and Bea saw that Braham tightened his turn on to Mossie’s stall boundary as the wings of his Mossie rocked perceptibly but Bea was still gaining and was creeping to firing position. But the planes had descended very low level and his Ju was rocking in Mossie’s wake turbulence. So Bea began thinking that he didn’t know Ju’s handling characteristics so he easied his turn. Bea was really impressed on his mount and so was I as a Mossie fan. He had found out that also take-off and landing characteristics of Ju 88G were excellent. Bea concluded that Ju 88G remained in his rating as one of the best heavy piston-engined twins of all time, and a very pleasant flying experience.
I would like to see Braham’s recollection of this fight.

Regards
Juha

[robert_schulte]

Hello Juha,
many thanks for that. Considering that the Ju was the much bigger and heavier plane, it was quite a surprise that it could outturn a Mossie in a simulated dogfight. Makes the Ju 88 G even better in my eyes, guess I have to re-order my list :)
Regards
Robert

[Vraa84]

Hi

I would like to ad my list to. ( in order)

Halifax (B.III, B.VI, B.VII)
Spitfire ( w/o bubble canopy)
Hawker Typhoon
Lancaster (B.I, B.III)
Mosquito
Hawker Tempest
B-17 (F, G)
Wellington
Stirling
B-24 (D, G, H, J, M)

Of jets, my one and only real favorite is the Hawker Hunter.

A big halifax fan I would like to point out that the halifax in the pathfinder role had a 2,5 per cent loss rate compared to the lancs 3,7.
And a 0,56 per cent loss rate for day raids, compared to 0,74 per cent for the lanc.
And all evidence suggest that the hercules-engined halifax had a lower loss rate than the lanc. ( taken from Halifax Sqn of world war two)
Again the halifax was in action in the early days in the war where losses where high. Also of interest, is that the halifax crew had a better chance to survive been shot down.
I support the idea that the reason that the Lancs higher profile comes from that most top-brass where pilots, and that the lanc was a real pilots aircraft.

Cheers
Nick

[Juha]

Hello Nick
Odense is a beautiful city, I have been there twice, in 1966 and in 2003. And thanks for Your list. Nice to have a list which incl. many bombers. When I made mine, I noticed that it incl. only 1½ bombers (B-17 and Mossie) plus B-29 as a runner-up and felt that that was a drawback. So I take the opportunity to list my favourite bombers besides those already mentioned:
British: Lancaster B. I and B. III, Wellington Mk.III and Blackburn Skua. And of the later Avro Shackleton.
German: Ju 188E, He 111H-20, Do 17Z and Ju 87D
US: Martin B-26 B/C, North American B-25 J, Douglas A-20G, Douglas SBD-5 and Curtiss SB2C-5
Soviet: Petlyakov Pe-2FT
Japan: Yokosuka D4Y3 Model 33 Suisei “Judy” and Aichi B7A Ryusei
Jet bombers Canberra and Buccaneer.

And yes, Hunter was a real beauty.
I don’t want to argue too much on Lancaster vs. later Halifaxes but as a Lancaster man I want to say that it is a fact that the survival rate was better among shot down Halifax crews, and also among shot down Stirling crews, than among shot down Lancaster crews. I read this first time in late 70s in one Youth Hostel in Wales. The article gave exact survival rates, which I have forgotten, and stated that main reason was the very long bomb bay of Lanc. Because of that most crewmembers had longer way to exit in Lanc than in the other two bombers. So Lancaster was really an offensive weapon in a sense that offensive capacities were put ahead of crew survivalability. Sounds a little bit like Mitsubishi Zero, BTW IMHO A6M3 was a really beautiful a/c.
But on lost rates, I cannot remember how it was with 8 Group but IIRC in the Main Force during winter 43 – 44 progressively the most distant targets and Berlin became exclusively Lanc targets and first Stirlings, then Merlin Halifaxes and then even Hercules Halifaxes attacked mostly more western targets which were thought to be less dangerous. Of course which target was more dangerous depended at that time mostly on where German night fighters were directed and so the British predictions were not always correct. So higher Lanc loss rates might only indicate that they flew more dangerous missions than Hercules Halifaxes. But I have no problem on that You think that Halifax B. III was better than Lancaster B. III. Both were excellent heavy night bombers.

Robert
Yes very impressive performance and when one thinks that Bea had almost no twin-engine experience under his belt and Braham was very experienced Mossie jockey, it is even more impressive. Bea was very fool-hardy during that flight, I think. But many successful fighter pilots were rather aggressive types, ready to take challenges. And I think that 88 G-6 was even better than G-1, so…But as I wrote earlier, I’d like to hear also Braham’s version on that dogfight before drawing firm conclusions. BTW Bea wrote that Braham was flying one of the late mark Mossies.
Regards
Juha

[Vraa84]

Hi
Well, I to think that the the Lanc was the best plane in the strait bomber role( its one of my favorites too). And as you said it was a really offensive weapon, and as such the best of all the british bombers. It had the range and could carry it pretty much anywhere in nothern europe.And it was a real pilots plane.
I just think that its sad that some people tend to forget the Halifax, it was a very versatile a/c, fulfilling a number of roles beside the bomber one.

And the A-20G is a real beutty too, as goes for the B-25 and B-26. Those bomber have sometimes to been owershadowed by the heavys.

Cheers
Nick

[Juha]

Hello Nick
yes, I agree that there was not much difference between Lanc B. III and Halifax B.III as bombers and that Halifaxes with their more voluminous fuselages were more easy to adapt numerous other roles.

Especially B-26 was really beautiful bomber. I have seen some rather stunning photos on them. And I have read that many pilots really liked A-20 .

Regards
Juha

[aradoar234]

Hello Board

here are my favourites:

Arado Ar-234
Grumman F7F Tigercat
Reggiane Re-2005 Sagittario
Macchi M39 and MC-72
Heinkel He-100D
Focke-Wulf Fw-190D-9
Heinkel He-51
Focke-Wulf Fw-200 Condor
Supermarine Spitfire Mk.IX (clipped Wings)
Lockheed P-38 Lightning
North-American P-51D Mustang,

and...and....and......

In fact, I like every aircraft (less preferable only the French Pre-War Bombers !!!)

Regards
Holger

[Juha]

Hello Holger
Yes, Arado 234 was one of candidates also to my top 14 list. Excellent a/c, especially as a recon a/c.
And Reggiane Re-2005 is my favourite Italian fighter alongside with Macchi MC. 202, not that I know much of the plane. I have read from a couple of books that it was the best of the “5” series Italian fighters, but it was so rare that it is difficult to have a firm opinion on it. So my very positive attitude towards it is based only on its specifications and looks.

And yes, I also have too many favourite a/c, it was very difficult to make my top 10 list.

Regards
Juha

[bluebiggsey]

My Top 10 planes would be:-

FW ta 152H & C
Reggiane Re2005
Depredussin 1913 world speed holder
Spit XI PRU(no cannons to spoil the lines)
Heinkel He 100
Heinoen Hk-1 Finlands only WR for distance in 500kg class(I recently surveyed to make 3 view)
DH Hornet
Dewontine D520
Buggatti
Sopwith Scooter

Reviewing my list I have noticed that most of them have exceptional performances for their time. Although I based it on looks. Distinct lack of jets and multis apart from the Hornet.

Liam:)

[Juha]

Hello again, Holger
one more comment. From childhood I remember that one of my older friends had a scale model of Fw-200C and it looked pretty good. Fw-200C really looked as the Scourge of Atlantic and on the other hand the passenger versions were good and modern looking planes.

Liam
DH Hornet is also one of my favourites, really beautiful aircraft. So is Ta 152C, personally I like the C model more than the H.
To those who don’t know what kind of a/c Heinonen HK-1 is, here is a URL http://www.ilmailu.org/gallery/view_photo.php?set_albumName=Harrasterakenteiset-ilma-alukset&id=OHHKAr

Regards
Juha

[aradoar234]

Hi Juha,

I've had have the Fw-200 from Revell too when I was a young boy (I'm now almost 40 and I'm currently pushing my son in the right "aviation direction") and I was impressed by the huge bomb-bay/ gunner-station-bomb-bay as well as the bombs attached to the engine-nacelles. Details, which are unkown to me. Unfortunately, the model has been lost due to "cracker-explosion-experiments" in my teenager age.

Regards
Holger

[Ruy Horta]

It seems that my taste changes with the years, but some seem to stay in the list.

Albatros D.III/D.V
Nieuport 17bis
Spad 7
SE5a
Fokker D.VII

Fokker D.XVI
Boeing P-12/F4B
Hawker Fury

Supermarine Spitfire
Messerschmitt Bf 109G/K
Hawker Typhoon/Tempest
North American P-51D
Vought F4U
Messerschmitt Me 262

Hawker Sea Fury
Grumman F9F
Mikoyan Gurevich MiG-15
North American F-86(K I like especially).

Hawker Hunter

Lockheed F-104
Mikoyan Gurevich MiG-21
Vought F-8 (A-7 I like too)
Dassault Mirage IIIC
McDonnell F-4

As the F-16 gets older, I am starting to like her more and more.

[alex crawford]

Hi,

Has to be the Gloster Gladiator, followed closely by the Fury, Bulldog and Gauntlet.

Don't really know why I like biplanes, probably becuse they come from a colourful era.

Alex

[robert_schulte]

Nice little plane, the Heinonen HK-1. Looks a bit like a DH Chipmunk washed too hot :D
Found a link and if I understand correctly, it made a trip from Madrid to Turku (which are about 3000 km) in just 17 hours! Quite impressive for only 65 HP.
http://www.mtv3.fi/matkailu/arkisto.shtml?341782
It's a pity that I can't read Finnish. How many stops did it take?
And never heard, that Bugatti also built planes!
Some rare birds in Liams list :)

The Hornet is a real beauty, I also built one in my youth. Had the same fate as Holger's Fw 200......

[bluebiggsey]

Nice little plane, the Heinonen HK-1. Looks a bit like a DH Chipmunk washed too hot :D
Found a link and if I understand correctly, it made a trip from Madrid to Turku (which are about 3000 km) in just 17 hours! Quite impressive for only 65 HP.
http://www.mtv3.fi/matkailu/arkisto.shtml?341782
It's a pity that I can't read Finnish. How many stops did it take?
And never heard, that Bugatti also built planes!
Some rare birds in Liams list :)

The Hornet is a real beauty, I also built one in my youth. Had the same fate as Holger's Fw 200......

The Heinonen HK-1 did the Madrid to Turku trip non-stop(A slipper tank was strapped to the belly)

Buggatti had a hand in everthing planes,trains,cars even submarines.Heres a link to the Buggatti Model 100 plane.
http://www.airventuremuseum.org/collection/aircraft/Bugatti%20Model%20100%20Racer.asp
This plane was built to capture the Speed Record. The design was also to be modified as a fighter. Unfortunately war broke out before it was completed. It has now been completly restored.

Liam

[Juha]

Hello Holger and Robert
I also blew rather many models up, first by fire-crackers then by more powerful improvised explosive charges.

Ruy
nice to see Hawker Sea Fury in Your list, it’s my all time favourite. My all-time favourites are Sea Fury, Spitfire VIII, Fw 190D-9, Canadair CL-13B Sabre Mk 6 or NA F-86K (I really cannot choose between those 2 Sabres), EE/BAC Lightning F.6, Blackburn/Hawker Siddeley Buccaneer, Avro/Hawker Siddeley Vulcan, MiG-19, McDonnell F-101B Voodoo and Nakajima Ki-84.

Regards
Juha

[robert_schulte]

Many thanks Liam,
a nonstop-trip makes the Heikonen even more impressive. Must have had pretty overweight at take-off, especially impressive with the small engine. Anybody knows, how much fuel was on board on take-off? (Sorry for these rather specific question, I was a pilot on my own some years ago).
And the Bugatti.....
What a fantastic plane! Would have been a pity, if I had missed that plane! VERY impressive, a calculated speed of 500 mph or more with "only" about 900 HP. I would love to see this plane to fly!
Regards
Robert

[bluebiggsey]

Sorry to hijack this thread . But to partially answer Roberts question the HK-1 had an internal fuel capacity of 58 litres which gave it a range of 700km at 185km/h(Reference Janes). Unfortunately I dont have the capacity for the slipper tank. I think an extra tank was also stowed behind the pilot in the luggage compartment but cannot confirm. All the other refernce material I have is in Finish and my Finish is as good as yours.

Liam

As a kid I too put matches down the stack of a Triang train in order to recreate a smoking chimney. Nowadays I can handle a box of matches without the supervision of an adult.

[Juha]

Hello Liam
no problem, I personally don’t know much on Heinonen HK-1 Keltiäinen, I tried to find out more from the net but best I found was this http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/cgi-bin/res.pl?keyword=Heinonen+HK-1&offset=0.

Most difficult in my experiments was to produce a flash (marking a hit) before the big bang. I did my compulsory military service as a combat engineer/sapper and there I could blew all sort of things up on state’s expense so after that I have not feel any urge to continue my experiments or even to shot up New Year’s rockets.

Regards
Juha

[JeffK]

Not in a specific order & WW2 onwards.

Spitfire, all Marks but the Mk VIII best.
Corsair.
Beaufighter Mk 21
Mosquito FBVI
Lancaster
Mustang IV
Ju 88
CAC (Avon) Sabre
Dassault Mirage III
M-D Phantom II
Bae Tornado
GD F-111C

[Jon]

Mine are here in no specific order. I have not mentioned any specific marks as i like them all.

FW190
BF110 ...................(probably my favourite)
Boulton Paul Defiant
Hurricane
Spitfire
JU88
Mosquito
Lancaster
Beaufighter
Typhoon

[drgondog]

P-51B w/Malcom Hood
A/B-26 Invader
B-17F
F-86K
B-52H
AD-1 Skyraider
F-105D as Wild Weasel
F-15E

and last but not least
Spit MkIX, Bf 109G, Fw 190D, Mig 21

[Juha]

Hello
I have had a Christmas break.
Jon and JeffK, nice to see the good old Beau in your lists.

JeffK, yes Phantom II was a great plane.

Jon, I remember when I began to think that Bf 110 might have been better a/c than what the general opinion in aviation literature in early 70s seemed to indicate, and IMO it’s a good looking a/c in certain sinister way, especially those of II./ZG 76. And I have had some sympathy towards Boulton Paul Defiant also since early 70s.At least it had some successes as a night fighter.

drgondog, A/B-26 was a great plane and widely used, also very sleek looking. And Skyraider is also one of my favourites.

And Happy New Year to all!
Juha

[drgondog]

Juha - my father's four favorite a/c to fly were the P-51B, the A26, the F86 and the Spit IX.. he also was impressed with the Fw 190D that he flew when he commanded the 355Fg after VE day while based at Gablingen. He did not enjoy flying the 109K but greatly respected it as an opponent.

I had the opportunity to fly the 51D, the A26 and a P-38.. All marvelous ships but to be treated with respect.

[Juha]

Hello drgondog,
very interesting, in my top 10 list there were 3 out Your father’s 4 favourites, if we allowed the fact that Spitfire Mk VIII and Mk IX were rather similar.
Can You tell more on your father’s impressions on Fw 190D and Bf 109K? And of course on his opinions on his 4 favourites? And on Your experiences on P-51D, A26 and P-38?

Regards
Juha

[drgondog]

Juha - When the 355th moved to Gablingen there were several intact Fw 190 and Bf 109s at the base. I have pictures of two seaters in my files and he flew the Fw 190 two seater first ( primarily to familiarize himself with the German instruments and locations).

His primary recollection of the Fw 190D was that it was both very easy on controls like the Mustang, had a superb rate of roll and in general compared very favorably with the Mustang in all aspects except top speed at high altitude. He flew the 190D and after 20 or so hours 'rat raced' with Billy Hovde and Moon Elder - finding that the 190D matched the 51 in both speed and dive, slightly less in turn and remarked to me that he would have had no problem flying the airplane in combat in defense against anything at the time. Except for range he felt the two a/c were equal in performance giving advantage to suprise and better pilot.

The 109K was better than the 51 in a zoom climb, particularly to the right but he felt the 51 was superior in all other respects except raw horizontal speed at high altitude where the 109K was very close. He felt that the stick forces in a high speed turn and/or roll were terrible and hated the landing characteristics..

My father bought a 51D-30 in the 1959 timeframe when the Air Force National Guard was getting out of the business (long story).. He got a zero time -7 Merlin spare and traded that to Cavalier to get his modified to two seats/dual controls. He had taught me how to fly and I had about 100 hours solo prior to initial rides in the 51.. I flew back seat (not land or take off) for about 30 hours shooting approaches included, took a check ride in an At-6 and flew that solo for about 20 hours... then solo'd the 51.

I got 56 hours before my father got an offer he couldn't refuse.

The B-26 experience was a couple of years later when he was retired from USAF and General Manager of American Airmotive in Miami- which at that time was modifying B-26's for upgraded ground attack role. I flew about 30 hours in C-47's in the course of getting my multi engine cert and flew the American Airmotive Aero Commander and the modified B-26's on two 'test runs' but never as Command Pilot who was always my father. The A/B-26 Invader was one hot twin engine airplane and in light config could probably stay with a 51D on the deck, at least close. As a footnote, he had 200 hours in B-26C Marauders before transitioning to fighters and the 355thFG. After the war he taught several 355FG pilots including Al White, Billy Hove and John "Moon" Elder how to fly the B-26 that was based at both Steeple Morden and Gablingen..

The P-38 belonged to a friend of mine who was in the commercial photo mapping business in Dallas by the name of Hap Buce.. I got two flights of 2 hours in a 'droop nose' mod version of the P-38J - so it was very light and responsive. My impression was that it would out turn a 51 and probably outclimb it. I was at one time hoping to get a ride in the same P-38 that Jeff Ethell was killed in, but the deal fell through when Jell was killed in his accident (while his father Erv Ethell was watching - Erv was a squadron CO when my father was Wing Commander of 35th FB Wing in Japan before Korean War)..

[drgondog]

As to why he liked the 51B, Spit IX and F-86. The 51B with malcolm hood he felt was a more agile and better performer against the 190 and 109 than the D..

The Spitfire to him was the most elegant and responsive aircraft he ever flew.

The F-86 for him was in contrast to F-80, F-89, F-94, F-100, F-101 and F-105.. so the overall responsiveness and pure joy to fly of the 86 versus the others reminded him of both the P-51 and the Spitfire.

I had one back seat ride in a T-33 which was my only experience in a jet and was fun (and soo much quieter)..

I also got to 'sit' in the first captured MiG 15 when it arrived at Eglin AFB right after we returned from Japan. I can still remember that at the age of 8, I felt like I was the right 'scale' as a pilot compared to the room in a P-51 or T-33.

Regards,

Bill

[Juha]

Bill, Thanks a lot!
Very interesting info. I appreciate very much that You were so kind to type that down. First hand stories on flying characteristics of WWII warplanes are rare nowadays. I find You very lucky that Your father shared so much of his experiences with You and also taught You fly warbirds. And Your father seems to be very thorough man as the fact that he flew some 20 hours Fw 190D before “rat racing” with his pilots shows.

On A/B-26 Invader. My favourite of US light bombers was at first, at early teens, Martin Baltimore but very soon Invader took its place when I learned its specs and that French had considered it very good coin plane (range, firepower, loiter time) in French Indo-China. But some 10 years ago I read a couple British articles, in which ex-pilots seemed to have very fond memories on their experiences with Havoc/Boston and a bit later learned that the 5th AF has not been very keen to convert their A-20 units to A-26s, IIRC mostly because they considered the view from the cockpit more restricted than that from A-20 because of longer cowlings in Invader. 5th used its light bombers much in low-level work that’s why they considered the view out of cockpit so important. (On the other hand French also used Invader much as a ground attack plane in Indo-China and seemed to be satisfied.) IIRC there was not same sort criticism in ETO. Anyway the older Douglas bomber got into my favour. The change was made easier by the fact that Invader is easy to image as a Post-WWII a/c. But the fact is that US made so many excellent bombers during the WWII that it’s really difficult to choose between them. In the end I chose B-17 in my Top 10 list. I have difficulties to choose between F and G model but if I had I’d choose the G, because it shows the adaptability of Americans. When they found B-17’s vulnerability to frontal assaults the chin turret was a very effective anti-dose.

Of course a short list is always a bit arbitrary, at least to me. There were/are so many excellent and interesting a/c.

Thankfully
Juha

[drgondog]

It's kind of amusing when I look at my father's logbook at the post war entries while still with the 355th. Even when he was Group CO he spent more time in the base 'pet' B-26' Marauder and 'borrowed' A-20/A-26's.

I never flew the A-20 but he did like it very much and I suspect that visibility to the side would have been very important psychologically speaking. The Invader definitely was blind from pilot/copilot view to the side.

Dad did sneak a couple of raids during the NK army advance toward Pusan in the B-26 (night) while awaiting transfer from 5AF to command Air Proving Ground at Eglin AFB.. one hell of an airplane.

I liked the B-17F simply because it was a better looking version without the chin turret. I also liked the field modifications of twin fifties firing forward through nose.

As you probably know Tooey Spaatz's comments that the B-17 was the most important airplane (vs Ike's opinion for the C-47) for USAAF in WWII is why the very famous painting by Keith Ferris in full scale is first sight you see at the National Aerospace Museum in DC.

Funny world, Keith and I and Jeff Ethell were in pre-war Japan as USAF brats in the fighter pilot community..

attached are a couple of perhaps interesting photos for you?

Regards,

Bill

[Juha]

Hello Bill
Thanks for the interesting photos.
Also for me the main points for B-17F over G are better aerodynamics and better looks. But sometimes in early 80s I read on a British study on the efficiency of defensive armaments which stated that turret guns were more effective than hand-held weapons and that the remote control guns were the most effective. Because same was true in ship-borne AA I believed that. Now the gunner of chin turret was too close to the guns for full benefit of remote control (freedom of vibration and noise of gun firing) but at least the guns were turret mounted.

On F-86, everybody seemed to have very positive memories on it.

Regards
Juha

[Artist]

For me it would have to be the Spit. IX. You could have painted it pink and it still would be the best looking bird in the sky. Bob

[Juha]

Hello Bob
I agree that Spitfire is a very beautiful plane. I have a big centrefold picture of Mk IX on the wall of my office. Also in my eyes Spit VIII/IX is perhaps the most beautiful warbird.

Regards
Juha

[Roddoss72]

Easy, the FW-190 any variant. cya.

[Juha]

To Robert Schulte
Hello Robert, I found my copy of the Roland Beamont's book. It is Tempest Over Europe, Airlife (1994) ISBN 1 85310 452 3. The Ju 88 G-1 test flight story is on pp. 123 - 128.

Regards
Juha

[robert_schulte]

Juha,
many thanks for this. I will try to get a copy of the book.
Best wishes
Robert

[JamesM]

Hi all.

My "TOP 10";

Spitfire IX/B
Spitfire XII
Hurricane I/A
Hurricane II/D
Hurricane IV
Me-109/K
Fw-190/F
Fw-190/D
Me-163
Me-262/A



There you go.

James.

[Juha]

Hello James
an interesting list, at least 3 true fighter-bombers/ground attack planes and 3 Hurricanes. I'm not a Hurricane fan myself but I have always think that the "Tin-opener" Mk.IID was an interesting aircraft and why not also the Mk.IV. And of course there were around twice as many Hurricanes than Spitfires serving in FC during the BoB. And it was lovely plane to fly, I have read and heard.
And Spitfire Mk XII, rather rare bird, IIRC only 100 were built but really good looking and same time maybe the most sinister looking of all wartime Spits. WgCdr T.F.Neil, the CO of 41 Sqn in 1943 didn't fall in love with it but he admitted that his personal plane was a 'lemon'. And IIRC Johnnie Johnson wrote in his Wing Leader that the CO of 91 Sqn was very proud on his XIIs.
And of course Me 262 was a truely great and beatiful plane, and it isn't surprising that the last of the great line of Bf 109s (German made I mean) is in Your list.


As I wrote, an interesting list.

Juha

[JamesM]

Thanks Juha.

I've always had a soft spot for the German fighters & fighter-bombers. I've just started to become interested in the Luftwaffe, because I've started a historical fiction novel, "Jimmy and Willi", following a New Zealand Spitfire ace during 1943-44, and his German rival, Wilhelm-Frederick "Willi" Tank, a Me-109 ace around the same time.

Cheers.

James.

[Juha]

Thanks to You, James
Your list was interesting. It just happened that during this morning coffee break I began to read an article by Wg Cdr Havercroft on his work during the war in RAF Armament Flight in an old Aeroplane Monthly. And the heading picture was a photo on steeply banking Hurricane Mk. IID!
On Spit XII. It was well after midnight here in Finland when I wrote my previous message so I cut short the opinion of the CO of 91 Sqn (or how I remembered it) . IIRC the “Wing Leader”, Johnnie, who seemed to be a strong believer of the height advance in aerial combat, was surprised when he learn that the tactics of 91 Sqn was to lure Fw 190s down to the lower height where 91 Sqn seductively flew . The Sqn CO explained that their Spits were so much better than Fw 190s at low level that it didn’t bother them even if they gave the initiative to Germans.

Juha

[Shikhov]

Hello Juha!
Let me represent my favourites:
Amongs the piston engined - Bf109F/early G.
I don't explain why. Simply like favourite colour.
But sure the best WWII fighter - P-51D and I like it also.
Amongs the jets - F-4E Phantom II.
I was impressed by its abilities in Soviet time (end of 70's) and
also due to its very interesting unusual shape.

Also impressed unexpected Bill's "Dragondog" story!

Best regards
Igor

[Juha]

Hello Igor!
sorry for the late answer but I have been busy. I also valued Bf 109F-4 highly, my favoured Messerschmitts are Bf 109G-10, 109F-4, 109E-4, Me 262A-1a, 262B-1a/U1 and Bf 108B in that order. You are right, it is question of taste. For example Your favorite jet F-4 Phantom was undoubtedly better fighter than my favorite McDonnell product F-101 Woodoo. I have also a soft spot for example for Blackburn Skua, Boulton Paul Defiant and Westland Whirlwind (the fighter not the helicopter), the 2 first at least were not a world beaters, not even especially beautiful birds but...

Yes, Drgondog's messages on his father's opinions on different aeroplanes were very interesting indeed and as opinions of an experienced combat pilot and leader made after at least a fair amount of flying on types they are truly valuable.

Thanks for Your list
Juha

[Skyraider3D]

A top 10 would be near impossible. But I can manage a top 3 :)

1 - Skyraider
2 - Fw 190/Ta 152 (I quite like the Fw 190 V18/U1 for variety's sake!)
3 - Me 262

A top ten would most definitely also include the B-36 Peacemaker and the Hawker Seahawk and Seafury. I think the Seahawk is quite possibly the most beautiful plane design ever :)

In general I very much like 1940s aircraft, especially the latest generation of prop fighters and the first generation of jets. I also have a soft spot for prototypes and other obscurities.

1930s monoplane racers and mail planes (nice classic designs!), Japanese and French planes have grown on me recently and I am liking the P-51 - unoriginal as it may be - more and more. I even start seeing the beauty in a P-51H, so it must be serious :)

The Skyraider is a great plane too.

I used to love the Corsair, but after having studied it indepth I more and more dislike it. The bent wings are great, as is the big radial. But I have come to realise the whole plane is a big collection of engineering corrections, making it over-complicated. A Corsair designed correctly from the start would probably have looked like a Bearcat, but what's the fun in that! :p Still a great plane though. Speaking of cats, I also like fast twins, such as the Tigercat and DH88 Comet.

A rather obscure plane which I quite like is the Kawasaki C-5 high-speed communication plane. I bet 95% of you folks have never even heard of it! :D Don't bother try and find it in Google... it ain't there! :( Imagine a streamlined Stuka with the rear cockpit continued to the tail, and with He 111 wings (without sweep), and you're halfway there.

From the postwar stuff I have soft spots for the Westland Wyvern, Sukhoi Su-15, Fokker S.14 Machtrainer, Republic F-105 Thunderchief and Skyraider.

As the F-16 gets older, I am starting to like her more and more.Same here, although it's by no means one of my favourite :)
Good airshow performer for sure!

Did I mention yet I like the Skyraider? Great name too! ;)

[robert_schulte]

A rather obscure plane which I quite like is the Kawasaki C-5 high-speed communication plane. I bet 95% of you folks have never even heard of it! :D Don't bother try and find it in Google... it ain't there! :( Imagine a streamlined Stuka with the rear cockpit continued to the tail, and with He 111 wings (without sweep), and you're halfway there.

You forgot to mention the radial engine :p

I also like the Seahawk and the Skyraider, and what always took my attraction were big flying boats with more than two engines, what kind or country soever. Favourites would be the Blohm & Voss BV 222 or the Kawanishi Emily.

[Skyraider3D]

You forgot to mention the radial engine :pHehe nice try :D
It actually has a V-engine (not inverted like the Stuka though).
I'll post a scan here later and you'll see what I mean.

[robert_schulte]

Hehe nice try :D
It actually has a V-engine (not inverted like the Stuka though).
I'll post a scan here later and you'll see what I mean.
Sorry, mistook it with the Mitsubishi C5. This one would also fit to your description and has a radial engine.

[Juha]

Hello Skyraider
Thanks for Your opinion. Yes Skyraider is very interesting a/c. And Seafury is my all time favourite! And I agree that Hawker Seahawk was a beauty. Very elegant a/c indeed. I have liked it since late 60s when I made 1/72 plastic model of it (Airfix). I chose to make the German Navy version of it, Mk 100 with taller tail because to me that version looked better. Later on, late 70s maybe, I read on Air International Eric Brown's evaluation of it and in the article there were some photos on 4? Seahawks flying formation acrobatics and I still remember thinking that what a really beautiful plane it was.
On the other hand "Aluminium Overcast" had never been one of my favourites but the fact that people have different tastes makes life interesting.

I also agree that many Japanese a/c were very beautiful, for ex. Ki.46 Dinah. A6M3, G4M. Very clean aerodynamically but so was also B-26. Also many of those French twins which were just coming to sqn service or were in prototype phase when WWII began were truly beautiful. But to me the most beautiful twin is perhaps DH 103 Hornet.

On Skyraider, it was really amazing plane. Torpedo- and dive bomber with amazing load carrying ability which torpedoed a dam, fought with MiG-17s etc.
For US Century series my favourite is F-101 but F-105 is also one of my favourites as is also F-106 which was a beauty in my eyes.

Thanks
Juha

[Skyraider3D]

But to me the most beautiful twin is perhaps DH 103 Hornet.I knew I was forgetting one! The Hornet should is in my top 10 as well :)

[Juha]

Hello Skyraider
one of the merits of this kind of thread is that it reminds one on all those dozens of a/c that one had come across (in literature at least) but then forgot. Your first post reminded me on those mailplanes even if I think that some, for ex. Boeing 200?, was even too sleek to my taste, or DH's Albatross airliner/mail carrier, again for me, had too small tail. And from Albatross my mind wandered to the French airliner Potez 621 and I remembered when I first saw a picture on it and thought that ah, what a beautyful plane.

Juha

[Skyraider3D]

Look at that, I found pictures online of the Kawasaki C-5!!!
http://plaza.rakuten.co.jp/zerosenochibo/diary/20061001/
http://plaza.rakuten.co.jp/zerosenochibo/diary/20061002/
Great site by the way, with lots of interesting stuff...

[Juha]

Skyraider
Thanks for posting the links!

I must admit that I don’t recall seeing pictures on the Kawasaki C-5 before.

Thanks again
Juha

[Red Baroness]

Hmmm. Favorites.

Well, I grew up at the end of the SAC airfield up in Plattsburgh, NY, so I got to hear a lot of those big ol B52s going overhead. To this day, I can hear one fire up (I was lucky enough to find a sound clip) and all those memories come back to me of lying on my back in the field behind my grandfather's house, amongst the beef cattle, looking up as one of those big birds blackened the sky.

I was lucky, though. My grandfather worked on the base, so I spent a lot of time as a very young girl with those pilots and those planes. I'm still enamored of them, and the old warbirds - when the planes come to Hancock field - the B17, the B24, and the B25, I am there, crawling over them like a child in a candy store.

But, my real love would have to be the old canvas crates - the DvII-F, the Dr 1, the Albatros DIII, the DvA, yes, those are beauties.

I also love the Fockes, the A8/R5 being a favorite - but I blame the combat flight simulators for that one.

The Do335 is also a favorite of mine. Just so beautiful, and deadly. *grins*

One I don't like, oddly enough, is the Blohm und Voss asymmetrical beast. That, to me, is just too odd for my eyes.

The H100s are pretty nice too.

[Juha]

Hello Cori
thanks for Your opinion. So you have had an interesting childhood. My interest on aircraft was kindled by less excite reasons. One British film on 3 Hurricane pilots during the BoB, a Finnish version of Air Ace comics and a docunovel on Finnish Air Force Brewster 239 sqn, LLv. 24, written by its last wartime CO and maybe a Blue Angels show also had some influence.
To me B-52 always reminds me on those newsreels on Vietnam war when they dropped those seemingly endless sticks of bombs. But it is a great plane, maybe the longest serving combat a/c. And easily recognizable.
I´m not personally very interested in WWI bi-planes maybe because my childhood plastic scale model experiences, at that time I thought that those interplane struts and wires made model building unnecessary complicated. But I liked even that time Albatross D.III (my brother made a model of it) and Roland C.II Walfisch.

And Dornier Do335 was deadly looking bird, I agree.
My old brains have no recollection on H100, which doesn't mean much, but maybe You mean He 100 which was very clean bird indeed.

Thanks for Your thoughts
Juha

[Red Baroness]

Yes, Juha, I did mean the He100. Old fingers type too fast sometimes. :o

[egg-roger]

Noob here,

Tempest V
Spitfire XIV
Junkers 388J
Fw 190A-8
Fw 190D / Ta 152
P-51D
Bf 109F
Heinkel 219
Do 335
Ju 88G
Ar 234
P-47 Bubbletop
P-38
Me 262

Fokker VII

B-58
F-104
MiG17

Ugliest airplane ever: Scorpion night fighter, I forget it's designation.

[Juha]

Cori
be glad, You still have fast fingers. And I agree, He 100 was a sleek and menacing looking airplane.

Egg-roger
most of the planes in Your list are also my favorites. I have so little info on Ju 388J that I don't have a firm opinion on it. And B-58 was a very sleek looking a/c.
At least Beaumont and IIRC Closterman would agree that Tempest V was a marvellous a/c and also I count it as one of the greatest fighters even if I'm more a Spitfire fan. And to me Bf 109F-4 was truely great plane in 1941 - 42.
IIRC Scorpion was F-89. At least it was appropriatedly named, I mean the high tail.

Thanks for Your list!

Juha

[PeterVerney]

Since we are in the childhood likes phase ......

My father took me to an air display at Hawkinge shortly before the war started, where the new wonder fighter, the Spitfire, was demonstrated. I was about 7 years old at the time and that was for me the ultimate aeroplane. Soon afterwards we had the dubious pleasure in seeing them in real action, I can still hear those 8 Brownings rattling away, and the noise made by an aircraft coming straight down to its doom.

When I was old enough I served in the RAF as a night fighter navigator, flying first in the Mosquito NF36 and then in the Meteor series of night fighters. To my mind, after the Spitfire, the Meteor NF14 is the best looker.

Peter Verney

[Dan Taylor]

Hi Peter,
I agree that the Meteor was slick - but the Mosquito wasn't a bad looking type either of course. A friend of mine flew the Mosquito out of Ford, Sussex in 1944 with 456 RAAF. His name is Stan Williams, and he had some great stories about flying the Mosquito at night - quite harrowing, I'm sure you could relate! He trained with radar in Beaufighters - I always thought they also looked pretty hardy and businesslike. Stan shot down a few of the twin engined German raiders at night with the Mozzie - I remember he had this great picture of one of his opponents (a Do 215 in the gloom) taken from the gun camera that showed one of the early r/c glider bombs under it.
For single engines though I love the FW 190 and the P-47...I guess I like my fighters a bit chunky!
All the best,
Dan Taylor

[CJE]

My favourite airplane is the Blackburn Blackburn.
I've never seen so narrow a fuselage that you had to be the likes of the Egyptian figures carved in the pyramid walls to fly it.

Though I also like the French Dyle et Bacalan AB.22 with its restaurant terrace for the pilot, its tennis court inside the starboard wing and its swimming-pool inside the port wing.
http://www.kheichhorn.de/html/body_page10470.html

[PeterVerney]

If you want ugly and alliterative, how about the brutal Bristol Brigand. We were taught how to use our radar in these, and always had the dive brakes demonstrated, woe betide you if you did not brace.

[Skyraider3D]

I always quite liked the Brigand. But somehow to me it looks like an incredibly sluggish machine. How did it fly?

[PeterVerney]

Hi Skyraider
The Brigand had two Bristol Centaurus 2000 hp radials, so I guess the answer to your question is "By brute force and ignorance". It was built like the proverbial brick outhouse, but they had problems in practice with main spars bending, and aircraft exploding because of a build up of fumes when the guns were fired, so it was not too popular and rapidly withdrawn from front line use. However it soldiered on as a radar trainer into the late 50s.

[Juha]

Hello all
sorry for late answer but I've been busy lately.

Peter, very interesting! The Spitfire must have been very impressive and very modern looking at that time!
On Meteor, yes Mk. 14 was rather good looking. I still have, i hope, an unassembled Matchbox plastic model of Meteor Mk.12/13/14 somewhere in my attic. I bought it in order to build a Mk. 14 but because of lack of time my scale modelling hobby became dormat before I had time to begin that project. Nothing to do with the subject, its one of those late war and early jet night fighter projects (others are late Mossie NF, Do 335, F-89 and F-101B at least, I might have forget some already) which are waiting in their boxes for my retirement, I think. My daughter confiscated some of my unassembled models in the pretext that I didn't have time to do them but I think they all were single engine fighters. I chose Mk. 14 as my project because IMHO it was the best looking of Meteor NFs with its clear canopy. But I must admit that for me the best looking Meteor is Mk. 8.
What is Your impression on Mossie NF 36?

Dan, yes FW 190s and P-47s were good and powerful looking fighters.

CJE, Yes IIRC Blackburn was similat to Avro Bison and they were rather odd looking carrier planes, but if they were narrow they were also tall.
I had to check from internet the Dyle et Bacalan AB.22, I then remembered that I have seen the photo before but forgot then the name. After all, it isn't the most famous of French a/c.

[dora9forever]

fw ta152
me 109 Emil and f
Dora 9
fiat g55
macchi 202
macchi 205
zeros
raiden
george
shiden
spitfire mk 1 2 9 19
hurricane mk2
tempests
typhoons
p47
mustang a b
heinkel 112
heinkel 100D

[GMichalski]

hi,
for me
ME109F and G6-10 with MK 103 30 mm (despite the autonomy)
FW190D9 (air tank with good weapons)
Tempest (air tank with good weapons)
Macchi205 (good in all)
Corsair (air tank with good weapons)
Hellcat (air tank with good weapons)
Spitfire (good in all)
Me262 (best deadliest weapons and best speed)
Lagg-7 (great agility)
Yak3 (great agility)
P-51D (speed and good weapons)
P-47D (air tank with good weapons)
Ki84 (great agility, speed and weapons)
P-39N (37 mm deadliest cannon at short distance with some problems in stability)
P-38 (good speed and weapons)
regards