109 Squadron detachment in Africa electronic counter-measures

[michele-palermo]

I'm looking for informations about the operations of the Wellingtons in November December 1941. In particular about those of 21 and 22 November.
Thanks in advance

[Graham Boak]

There is a description of the actions on 21 and 22 November in Chris Shores et al new A History of the Mediterranean Air War. What information do you want?
21 November Z8907 shot down with six dead and one surviving, by either Hans Remmer or Otto Schulz of JG27, another Wellington being damaged beyond repair. Two others were damaged on the ground at night.
22 November X9988 shot down, all six dead. Another damaged, by MC200 of 153 Gruppo.
25 November 5 sorties flown but unit withdrawn through lack of aircraft
1 December 1 aircraft operational attacked by Bf110, undamaged
4th December X9986 operational attacked by Hurricane

edit - correction to serial and Macchi type.

[michele-palermo]

Thanks for the answer.
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This is what I have for 21 an 22 November. As you can see things are not so clear.


21 November
Two Wellingtons are claimed by German pilots: Ltn. Hans Remmer of 1./JG 27 to the east of Sidi Omar at 9.50; Ofw. Otto Schulz of 4./JG 27 south west of El Adem at 9.55. Timing would indicate the same mission but not the places.
In one case it was possibly the Boston III W8378 of 24 SAAF (out of three, L.G. 112) that didn't return from a reconnaissance mission above Sidi Rezegh, Gambut and Maddalena. It must have been shot down at 10.30.


6 Wellingtons of 109 Sqn. (L.G. 75) between 7.00 and 14.45 carried out special W/T operations over the battle area. Three of them also bombed Fort Capuzzo but the results were
not observed. Over the target they were intercepted by 3 C.200's, of which one was
destroyed (AIR 23.1181). Wellington IC Z8907 is missing with the loss of 6 members of the crew. A second one is damaged beyond repair possibly after a crash landing (Shores).
Between 11.10 and 13.00 3 C.200s of 373a Sq. are on a recco over Sidi Omar and Bir
Kamsa. They intercept Wellingtons and Cap. Radini claims one probably destroyed.
No losses were reported for the Macchis.






22 November
5 C.200s of the 153°Gr. attacked and machine gunned a Wellington, while they were on a reconnaissance mission over Bir El Gobi at 12.25. The attack continued until they had almostused up all the ammunition. Despite this the Wellington managed to disappear into the clouds.
Two Macchis were hit by the return fire of the bomber and a pilot was slightly wounded.
AIR 22.364 and AIR 23.1181 reported only the damaging of a Wellington of 109 Sq., by 9 Bf.109s; however, they must have been Macchis.
Then we have the loss of X9988 (Bomber losses).
Shores notes the damaging of the second Wellington.




Then I found this old thread of RAF Command that doesn't match so well with the rest:
18|6|RE%3A 109 Squadron RAF|Jim Howey (Guest)||02:21:03|07/12/2002| I have a Log Book and detailed diary belonging to a 109 Squadron Pilot from this period. The log entries from Nov 20-25 1941 are all listed as Special Operations Western Desert%22 and all record flights between L.G.104 and L.G.75. This pilot records on Nov 22 that he was attacked by eight Macchi C200 AC Damaged. The aircraft is Z-8944. The following entries all relate to previous posts in this thread. The diary entry for Nov 22 Our squadron got into action day before yesterday. When we arrived at the advanced base yesterday morning the boys who had been up the previous afternoon said it was easy nothing to it. During the day FO Hughes Niagara Falls NY was shot down two other Canucks in the crew second pilot Wolf and rear gunner Lowther. FL Willis was jumped by three fighters wireless op wounded lucky to get away with it. No fighter escort we go up alone and stage around the same area for two hours asking for trouble just a suicide squadron... Nov 23 It was our turn yesterday. As we were flying to our alt we were investigated by 10 Hurricanes about 12 eight Macchi 200 attacked us. Shot the plane up a bit. An explosive bullet hit my steel door just as I was going to go back to the beam guns. Bullets hit the wireless set... stooged around until 12%3A50 when six more were coming for us. Four Hurricanes jumped them just in the nick of time. Ship is U.S. for awhile. I hope it is a long while.

[Graham Boak]

Yes, Z8907 not Z8901 as I typed - now corrected. Also MC200 not MC202.

The 24 Sq Boston lost is listed as W8375/P - Shores says "crashed" which might imply no enemy involvement. According to Air Britain W8375 was lost on 24.11.42, W8378 on 25.11.42. Shores has the latter shot down on the 23rd, with considerable detail. A few days delay in reporting losses is perhaps not too surprising, but have you a reason for suggesting that the two losses have been exchanged?

I think your final paragraph matches very well with Shores account.

The one odd part is the bombing of Fort Cappuzo which does not mix well with their dedicated radio jamming role. I suspect this element.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Michele-Palermo

With regard to the combat on Nov 21st, I am interested to know why you differ from Giovanni Massimello, who authored the Italian part in A history of the Mediterranean air war vol 1.
You say 3 MC.200 intercepted Wellingtons on that date and that Capt Radini claimed one as probably destroyed.
Yet Giovanni Massimello has found nothing to support that since nothing is mentioned in the book.

The RAF and 109 Sq (det) at the time thought they had been intercepted by Italian fighters (as reported in Bombers over sand and snow by Alun Granfield).¨¨

Can you please clarify your source for your information, since it is pretty crucial for the whole Welington story that day.

Cheers
Stig

[michele-palermo]

Crusader air operations (air 23/1181), kindly provided by Andreas Biermann, gives informations about the Wellingtons, included the curious bombing.
153° Gruppo diary reports the mission but not the clash (Squadriglie's diaries have gone lost)
V squadra's diary (Settore Est) reports the clash and the claim.
Massimello gave me the name of Cap. Radini

About the Boston informations of 24 SAAF are very poor, but refer to the 21th. Code number and timing has been taken from "Bomber losses"

[michele-palermo]

attachments

[Brian]

Hi guys

An aside - is there any more detail regarding X9986 being attacked by a Hurricane on 4 December 1941?

Cheers
Brian