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View Full Version : Loss, JG 3, 18.10.1943, Werner Kloß

Andreas Brekken
13th January 2006, 11:49
Hi, guys

Resolving issues in the loss records again...

The above mentioned loss is first recorded on 22.10.1943, lfd.Nr.32, with WNr folgt with regards to the aircraft flown by Kloß on this day.

This WNr was corrected in the amendments and corrections report of 30.10.1943, correction o, to be 15959.

However, in a new correction on 25.11.1943, correction r, it is changed to 15946.

However - the WNr 15946 is reported lost by the same unit ON same date, with only 30% damage.

Anyone with clarifications? I doubt that a 30% damage could be repaired and the aircraft flown in a new action on the same day...

Regards,
Andreas B
rob van den nieuwendijk
13th January 2006, 16:35
Hello Andreas,

Ofw Werner Kloß of 5./JG 3 flew Me 109G-5, schwarze 7 and w/nr 15959 on 18 Oct 43 when he was missing - he went down in the IJsselmeer/Holland.

Me 109G-5 (Schwarze 4) with w/nr 15946 crash landed at Schokland/Holland on 18 Oct 43 withg 30% damage. On 16 Dec 43 with fighter had 8% damage again when it crash landed near Amstelveen/Holland.

Best wishes from Holland,
Rob
Andreas Brekken
14th January 2006, 00:30
Thanks a lot, Rob

I found it also, but the GenQu states 10% for the last loss of 15946. What are your sources?

Regards,
Andreas
rob van den nieuwendijk
14th January 2006, 10:28
Hi Andreas,

On 16 Dec 43 Bf 109G-5, w/nr 15946, Schwarze 4 of 5./JG 3 made "Notlandung wegen Kraftstoffmangel" at "3,5 km SO Amstelveen". Bruch: 8%. Source: BAMA: RL 22/5 (Bergungsmeldungen)

Best wishes,
Rob

PS
Do you know when this fighter was lost?

Werner Kloß was also involved in an incident on 05.06.41 (then Uffz) - and in the beginning of 1942 in Mittelmeer (he was in the water for several hours before being rescued) - do you have any details on these?
John Manrho
14th January 2006, 13:06
Rob,

15946 was lost on 30.1.1944 with 7./JG 1. The "weisse 15" was flown by Fw. Max Finsterwald who was killed in the crash near Bornebroek (NL). Wreck was recovered by Museum Twente on Nov. 1st, 1980.

John.
Andreas Brekken
14th January 2006, 13:25
Hi, John

Is it the NVM which is the source for this latest piece of info on these birds??

Updating the loss records as we speak, will post links later today

Regards,
Andreas
John Manrho
14th January 2006, 15:11
Yes, info comes from NVM. Fw. Finsterwald was reported missing in Raum GN-GO, GP-HQ. His body was recovered after a few weeks and buried at Enschede Ehrenfriedhof on Feb, 16, 1944.
Franek Grabowski
14th January 2006, 17:01
Bruch: 8%. Source: BAMA: RL 22/5 (Bergungsmeldungen)
GenQu states 10% for the last loss of 15946
This may be a result of wrong initial assesment of damage, quite common. Of course clerk error cannot be excluded.
Andreas Brekken
15th January 2006, 16:48
Hi.

Think also that the Bergungsmeldung could be more 'detailed' than the 5% steps that the GenQu 6 Abt used.

So the 10% message is probably a rounded up figure. Often we also see mentioned that damage was below 10% so the loss should be stricken. This does of course not mean that the aircraft was undamaged!

Regards,
Andreas
Hans Nauta
15th January 2006, 18:27
Hi Andreas, Franke, Rob and John,

I don't know if it's of any use, but the body of Ofw Kloss was recovered from the IJsselmeer at 29th June 1944 by a fisherman of Enkhuizen and brought to shore. On 2nd July 1944 his body was buried at the cemetery of Bergen and after the war re-interred at Ysselsteyn.

Regards,
Hans Nauta
rob van den nieuwendijk
15th January 2006, 21:03
Hello Hans,

Nice to see your replies again!
Any details on the identity of the fisherman? Which boat did he sail on etc?

To Andreas,

Alas I only found a few Bergungsmeldungen --- yes these reports are more detailed than GenQu 6 reports. Well, a difference of 2% damage...

regards,
Rob
Andreas Brekken
16th January 2006, 16:09
Hi, Rob

Yeah - nothing to make a big point out of of course.

Been busy during the weekend, will add this highly interesting information and post link later tonight.

Regards,
Andreas
Hans Nauta
16th January 2006, 16:26
Hi Rob,

These details about Ofw Kloss originate from the grave reports, no more details given unfortunately.

Previous research in local archives didn't show up other info (yet).

Cheers,
Hans
Andreas Brekken
18th January 2006, 21:22
Hi.

Currently reported info on this bird:

Aircraft history overview:
http://www.ahs.no/discussion_images/ahs-acftid=6051.gif

Individual losses:
http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_public.asp?lossid=105264

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_public.asp?lossid=105283

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_public.asp?lossid=105391

Regards,
Andreas