Me-262 losses the 21st February 1945.

[ironrat]

I was wondering if anyone had info, or a complete list of the Me-262 losses the 21/02/1945.
Cheers,
Ironrat

[Tom D]

According to "The Me 262 Combat Diary," Appendix II "Known Losses of Me 262 Aicraft," there were ten Me 262's lost on 21/02/45:

II/JG 7, Wk Nr 110810; III/JG 7, Wk Nr 110519; II/KG(J) 51, Wk Nr 170004; II/KG(J) 51, Wk Nr 500056; II/KG(J) 51, Wk Nr 170199; II?KG(J) 51, Wk Nr 170010; II/KG(J) 54, Wk Nr 111612; I/KG(J) 54, Wk Nr 111630; 10/NJG 11, Wk Nr 110600; and 2/NAufkgr 6, Wk Nr 110565.

Tom D

[ironrat]

Well, from stormbirds list:


110565 - oblt. Willy Knoll, crashed at Landsberg/Lech

110600 - damaged during combat, destroyed landing at Prenzlau

111612 - crashed at Gibelstadt

170199, belonged to Gerhard Rohde, crashed - where?? were did he took off from for his mission?

111630 , strafed at Gibelstadt

170004, Reifenschaden, tyre burst on take off

And the others?? Were they any Me-262 MIA that day?

Ironrat

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, guys.

I have details of 11 losses on this date:

Date: Unit: Aircraft:
21.02.1945 III./Erg.J.G.2 Messerschmitt Me 262 A-1 WNr. 111616
21.02.1945 II./J.G.7 Messerschmitt Me 262 A-1 WNr. 110810
21.02.1945 III./J.G.7 Messerschmitt Me 262 A-1 WNr. 110964
21.02.1945 I./K.G.(J) 54 Messerschmitt Me 262 A-1 WNr. 111630
21.02.1945 III./K.G.(J) 54 Messerschmitt Me 262 A-1 WNr. 111612
21.02.1945 I./K.G.51 Messerschmitt Me 262 WNr. 0199
21.02.1945 II./K.G.51 Messerschmitt Me 262 A-2 WNr. 170004
21.02.1945 II./K.G.51 Messerschmitt Me 262 A-2 WNr. 170010
21.02.1945 II./K.G.51 Messerschmitt Me 262 A-2 WNr. 500056
21.02.1945 Stab/N.A.Gr.6 Messerschmitt Me 262 A-1 WNr. 110565
21.02.1945 III./N.J.G.11 Messerschmitt Me 262 A-1 WNr. 110600

As You can see, the WNr of the III./JG 7 aircraft differs from the list posted by Tom D.

Also - I have still to see confirmation that KG 51 were ever renamed/reassigned as a KG(J) unit, and I feel we should avoid using this designation for KG 51.

I have not worked on these, they are the 'raw' reports by GenQu 6 Abt. Locations are given for all except the 0199, 170004 and 500056.

This late there would really be no way of telling if this is a complete list (as is the case for most of the war except the period covered by the Summarische Verlustemeldungen)

Regards,
Andreas

[ironrat]

The 170004 was probably destroyed at Reifenschaden, because of a tyre burst on take off . The locations you are talking about are the loss locations or airfields locations? If loss, could you give them for the remaining machines from your list?

It still leaves the 170199 and the 500056 werknumber Me-262. Maybe others?
Regards,
Ironrat

[ironrat]

Andreas,
I have an account of a P-51D from the 356FG shooting down a Me-262 the 21st Feb. 1945. In many publications, the Me-262 is identified as Rhode's jet.
I think it wasn't Rohde.

First, as the fight took place some way east of Berlin and I/KG 51 was at this time at the Rheine/Hopsten aifield it could'n reach the presumed combat area and go back to his airfield.

Second, form a friend in Holland I have an in formation about Rhode being downed by british AA. More important he had acces to a copy of Rohde MIA document stating his take off after 17 00H. The P-51D downed its Messerchmitt around 15 30 H.

If it wasn't Rohde, who was it? Where to look for?

Regards,
Ironrat

[Ruy Horta]

Andreas,
More important he had acces to a copy of Rohde MIA document stating his take off after 17 00H. The P-51D downed its Messerchmitt around 15 30 H.

Just a remark, but are you sure they are using the same time zone?

If 15:30 is GMT and 17:00 is German time it could still be possible.

[ironrat]

Well, the difference between GMT and German time is 1 H, as I wrote the Me-262 took of after 17 00 H, 17 08H based on the document, if you add a few houndreds km to fly before reaching the encounter place... I don't think so. The Me-262 in Holland was downed at 17 30-17 40, near Volkel base which seams possible to me.
Well, There are 2 downed Me-262 and only one Rohde. I belive he was downed at Volkel by AA, and not downed by a P-51D houndreds of km from there.
The question still remains. Who was flying the second machine? What unit could have sent a Me-262 fighting some kilometers east of Berlin?

Regards
Ironrat

[ironrat]

I'm not an expert in the firld of Me-262, if somebody could help me more or at least point out were to look for.

I compared today the list from Stormbirds with Osprey's "German Jet Aces of WWII". In the book there is mention of OFW Helmut Baudach who bailed out wounded near Schonwalde (Niederbayern). The book is giving the date 21st of Feb. 1945 (yes!!), but Stormbirds gives 22nd of Feb. Which one is the right one?

By the way. I've got from a friend Tony Wood's list for the 1939/1940 period. There are a lot of errors on the list, at least concerning the types of planes downed in September 1939 over Poland. How could I contact Tony?

Regards
Ironrat

[George Hopp]

Times are a big trial, because the UK used double Daylight Saving Time during the summer, so, what did it use during the winter? I ask because local times were often used rather than GMT, and I am just wondering if the two were the same where the 356th FG was based.

[Ruy Horta]

Well, the difference between GMT and German time is 1 H, as I wrote the Me-262 took of after 17 00 H, 17 08H based on the document, if you add a few houndreds km to fly before reaching the encounter place... I don't think so. The Me-262 in Holland was downed at 17 30-17 40, near Volkel base which seams possible to me.

The difference TODAY is 1 hour.

I've read that Dutch time and German time differed 01:40 back in 1940, I do not know where this dutch time stood relative to GMT, but you see that things may not be so straightforward afterall.

[Nick Beale]

The 170004 was probably destroyed at Reifenschaden, because of a tyre burst on take off

Reifenschaden isn't a place, it's the German word for "tyre damage"

[Nick Beale]

According to "The Me 262 Combat Diary," Appendix II "Known Losses of Me 262 Aicraft," there were ten Me 262's lost on 21/02/45:

...Wk Nr 110519; II/KG(J) 51, Wk Nr 170004; II/KG(J) 51, Wk Nr 500056; II/KG(J) 51, Wk Nr 170199; II?KG(J) 51...

Tom D

One problem of "The Me 262 Combat Diary" is that it's perpetuated the idea that there was such a thing as "KG(J) 51." I know of no wartime evidence that the unit was ever called anything but plain KG 51.

The September (I think) 1944 order creating the KG(J) units survives and has been published in a number of books. KG 51 was not one of the Geschwader listed to become a KG(J). All of those were withdrawn from operations, redesignated and retrained/re-equipped.

By then, I./KG 51 was operating the Me 262 in the bomber role; II./KG 51 was soon to join them; and III./KG 51 was flying night bombing/attack missions with the Fw 190 F & G (it would be renamed NSG 20 in November 1944).

[Jaap Woortman]

Times are a big trial, because the UK used double Daylight Saving Time during the summer, so, what did it use during the winter? I ask because local times were often used rather than GMT, and I am just wondering if the two were the same where the 356th FG was based.

See at http://www.lwag.org/reference/HrLp001d.pdf in chapter 3. Timing differences etc...

Jaap

[KrisJG3]

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=83505581

[Jaap Woortman]

Rohde crashed at Schayk just north of Volkel Air Base.

Jaap

[John Manrho]

The fate of Ofhr. Gerhard Rohde, geb. 25.12.1914 Brunshaupten, was formally solved in August 2005. He crashed on 21.2.1945 near Schayk (north of Volkel airfield) in his Me 262A-2a, Werknummer 170199, 9K+??. he belonged to 1./KG 51. He was initally buried in a field grave and reburied at Ysselsteyn Cemetery Grave CI-12-300. He remained unknown until August 2005.

Driving force behind the identification was Adri Ekstijn. My role was to collect more evidence in documents and presenting it in the proper way to the WASt and VDK. Joe Potter found also some additional evidence.

Basically the evidence consisted of;
D.23816 Report of Burial Transfer RvO CI-12-300 dated 7.3.1950
D.23816 Reidentification effort CI-12-300 dated 17.4.1963
Police report dated 5.7.1945 concerning crash on 22.2.1945
RAF Crashed Enemy Aircraft Report No. 268 dated 30.3.1945.
ORB 2809 Squadron RAF Regiment
ORB 2834 Squadron RAF Regiment
RL2-III-1197
Flugbücher I./KG 51
AIR2/8728 Burial Slip Ofw. Gerhard Rohde

[RolandF]

Can WerkNr 170199 be correct? There´s a huge gap between WNr 170124 and 170270...
I have alternatives 170099 and 500099 while 500099 seems very questionable to me.

Regards

Roland

[John Manrho]

Not sure, seems unlikely......however, the only source (RL2-III-1197) says "0199".....

[Steve Coates]

What is AIR2/8728 Burial Slip Ofw. Gerhard Rohde?

According to Discovery this file is 'BOMBING (Code B, 16): Bombing probability problems: No. 25 Group method'.

[John Manrho]

Steve,

Now you have lost me.....the Burial Slip is a document (RAF) that Rohde's body was found north of Volkel. It had that AIR2/8728 on it....

John

[Steve Coates]

Ah OK. I assumed it was a PRO file reference.