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View Full Version : Crew of Ju 52 WNr 5460, 29 September 1942


Laurent Rizzotti
29th September 2015, 13:14
Hello, I would like to have the crew details for the Ju 52 WNr 5460 of 1-(Flg)Kp/Ln-Rgt 40 shot down by Spitfires near Mersa Matruh on 29 September 1942. Above details found in Shore's History of Med Air War vol 2, which says for the crew: Obfw Kulpe and two safe, one KIA.

I guess that the Luftwaffe loss list will only give the name of the KIA and maybe the full name of Kulpe.

Thanks in advance

Laurent

andy bird
29th September 2015, 13:46
Hi Laurent

You might want to take a look at this posted in December 2013

Cheers

Andy Bird

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=36133 (http://http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=36133)

Incase the link doesn't work: From Bill Norman

On 29 Sept. 1942, pilots from JG27 were passengers in a Ju.52 that was shot down by three Spitfires near 'Charing Cross'. Seemingly, one of the JG27 pilots recounted the experience in an article in the Gerrman magazine 'Jägerblatt', issue 8, in 1984 (08/1984). I know it's along shot, but does anyone have a copy of that particular issue or perhaps a copy of the article?

Reply from Russell
It was Anton Woffen, and its in his book as well.

Brian Bines
29th September 2015, 14:24
Laurent, there is an entry in GQM dated 19-10-42 page 9 item 94 for this, which shows 10/Ln.Rgt.40 'F' emergency landing following fighter attack by Mersa Matruh, Ju52 5480 burnt out 100% Bs Uffz Rudolf Horan killed ( I cannot be certain if Horan is correct as the name is hard to read),

Regards
Brian Bines

Norbert Schuchbauer
29th September 2015, 19:22
His name is Uffz. Moran Rudolf.

Regards,

Norbert

bill norman
29th September 2015, 22:49
Laurent,
Send me your email address by PM and I'll send you a copy of the article re. the incident.

Andy,
The Woffen incident was very similar (in fact, I raised the matter with Horst Willborn -a passenger in the Ju52 who first brought my attention to the episode) but after some investigation it was clear that they were separate incidents..

Bill Norman
(www.billnorman.co.uk)

Laurent Rizzotti
29th September 2015, 23:34
Thanks a lot to all of you who replied

Bill, I sent you a PM.

Stig Jarlevik
30th September 2015, 10:47
I am a bit puzzled.

RAF records only indicate one Ju 52/3m was attacked and forced down.
Now Bill suggests there were two Ju 52/3m destroyed that day in two separate incidents, but I find it hard to believe that three RAF pilots should fail to realise they were dealing with two aircraft and not one.

Brian seems only able to find one loss in the GQM which is even more puzzling.

So could someone elaborate a bit more here and explain what we really got.

Cheers
Stig

Laurent Rizzotti
30th September 2015, 11:28
Stig, what Bill says is that the Ju 52 in which Anton Woffen was shot down was not the one shot down on 29 September 1942, but another one. I have not read this story, but AFAIK many pilot memoirs are lacking precise dates and so it probably happens another day.

I have another problem with my sources for this action: both Bill Norman's article and Shore's book say that the three Spitfire pilots were searching for a special train near "Charing Cross" location near Marsa Matruh and did not find it, but met the Ju 52 instead. But here is what is written in the book "The Millionaires' Squadron: The Remarkable Story of 601 Squadron and the Flying Sword" by Tom Moulson:

"Sherk and 'Crash' Curry took off in their Spitfires on 29 September 1942, led by Sqn Ldr Peter Matthews of 145 Sqn. After flying westward out to sea they turned inland and attacked troops and docks at Mersa Matruh, a radar station on a hill, a troop encampment, a military headquarters, a supply dump, a train and a motorised column. Finding no further targets of opportunity they returned to the train, which had already been brought to a halt, and after hitting the locomotive left it gushing steam and the trucks in flames visible for 20 miles. As they turned to go back Matthrews spotted an aircraft to their left, which they readily identified as a Ju 52. Sherk, in the echelon port position and closest to the target, fired first. There was some ineffectual return fire from the rear gunner, then the Ju 52's starboard wing and fuselage burst into flames. Its pilot tried to land as the other two Spitfires followed up the attack. The Ju 52 crash-landed and burned. Seeing nothing more to be done, Matthews gave the order to return to base. Minutes later SHerk's engine failed. He force-landed in the Qattara Depression and was taken prisoner by the Italians, who flew him to a PoW camp in northern Italy."

If someone has the ORB of 145 and/or 601 Sqn for this day I will be interested to see what is written in it.

Stig Jarlevik
30th September 2015, 11:56
Laurent

I can't see Bill is saying anything at all in that direction

a) If you read the mails again, you start out with the incident on the 29th
b) You get an answer where the incident on the 29th is discussed by Bill and where Rusell states the name Anton Woffen (we are still on the 29th here)
c) Brian then gives an incident (still on the 29th) with a slightly different unit (10th instead of 1st) and also a slightly different WNr (5480 instead of 5460).
d) Bill answers Andy that the Woffen incident was very similar, but a different incident. He does not state anywhere that this incident was on a different date!

So I would be very happy to know why two different WNr and why two different units are listed, one by Shores and one by Brian from GQM?

Cheers
Stig

Brian Bines
30th September 2015, 12:54
Stig, I have checked the entry and it appears as 1o./Ln.Rgt.4o the damage is shown as 1oo and the wn as 548o so I have taken the unit as 10 rather than 1. As regards the wn I still see the third nunber as 8 rather than 6. Norbert in his post was good enough to show the correct spelling of the Bs name, perhaps the wn could be confirmed by someone from their copy of the GQM,

Regards
Brian Bines

Merlin
30th September 2015, 13:29
The Ju 52 WNr. 5460 was lost by I./KGzbV 172 near Tunis on 30.04.43.

I hope this clarifies the above question concerning the WNr.

Stig Jarlevik
30th September 2015, 17:24
Thanks Brian

Seems we just have one accident on this date, but which WNr is correct?
Anyone?

Cheers
Stig

PS: Thanks Merlin. When I clicked on the answer from Brian your answer did not show up. Very odd!!

Norbert Schuchbauer
30th September 2015, 21:06
Here is the info from the GQM:

29-09-42 10./Ln.Rgt. 40 F Near Marsa Matruk Forced landing, fighter fire, aircraft burnt out Ju 52/3m WNr. 5480 100% Uffz. Moran Rudolf Bs KIA

Regards,
Norbert

bill norman
1st October 2015, 00:06
My article, 'Desert Encounter' (FlyPast, August 2012) dealt with the loss of Ju52 wnr.5480 (not wnr.5460) at the hands of three Spitfires near Mersa Matruh on 29 September 1942. Wnr. 5480 was obtained from GQM, BA Freiburg. Prior to writing the article, I had extensive correspondence with Horst Willborn (highest ranking officer on the Ju52 that day), Ray Sherk (last surviving of the three Spitfire pilots), and Rudolf Moran (nephew of Uffz Rudolf Moran (BS), who died as a result of the encounter). The Ju52 pilot was Obfw. Kulpe. The unit to which the Junkers belonged was confirmed by Willborn as being 10(Flieger)/Ln. Regt.40 - not 1(Flieger/Ln.Regt.40. The piece is largely based on what they told me.

I tracked down a copy of 'Jägerblatt' (08/1984), read Woffen's account and reluctantly came to the conclusion that it referred to a separate incident - though there were some similarities. Willborn, however, had maintained from the start that they were separate incidents! Incidentally, Stig, I believe I said that they were 'separate incidents'; I didn't say 'same day'. Thus, as far as I can see, the Spitfire pilots did not fail to see they were dealing with two aircraft - because they weren't.

Laurent. Sherk said that Curry, Murray and himself had been waiting on stand-by for 2-3 days for the order to attack the ammo train at 'Charing Cross'. When the order came - on 29 Sept.'42 - Sherk said that they 'flew West at low level along the Quattra Depression, then North to the coast. 'We flew up and down the line at low level but there was no train.' Then they saw the Ju.52. Thus I don't know where Moulson got his information from but it differs markedly from that of Sherk - and Sherk was there.

Bill Norman
(www.billnorman.co.uk)

Laurent Rizzotti
1st October 2015, 16:32
A fellow searcher sent me copies of the ORB of 145 and 601 Sqn for this day, and both confirm that the train looked for was not seen, and that only the Ju 52 was attacked. The ORB of 145 Sqn describes in detail the path of the trio searching for the train and does not include any ground attack.

I wonder what was the source used for the book "The Millionaires' Squadron: The Remarkable Story of 601 Squadron and the Flying Sword" but this part of the story seems to be false.

A last question: the 601 Sqn ORB says that Sherk force landed in "Quattara Depression Square 8423 Matruh Sheet." Can someone convert this into a longitude/latitude position ? I know of a converter for European positions, but it did not cover Africa.

Best regards

bill norman
14th October 2015, 18:12
Laurent, I contacted Ray Sherk after your posting dated 30 Sept. He told me that he had read Moulson's book but had made no comment re. the 'errors' at the time. He is of the opinion that that train attack featured in Moulson's book occurred sometime after Sept.29 1942.
Bill Norman (webpage: www.billnorman.co.uk)