Soviet claims, 16 June 1943

[GaraiB]

Hello,

I would like to ask all soviet air victory and AA victory at 16 June 1943 central area of Soviet union (Kursk area). Special I am interested of AA soviet victory.
This day was shoot done M. Serg. Zoltan Toth fighter pilot of Hungarian 5/2 Fighter Squadron by soviet AA guns, (but could be also air victory). He become as a POW, he was until 1945 in Soviet union. His plane was very old, used Bf109 F-4.

Where I can get Russian daily data’s about AA victory, date and location?

Thanks,

Balazs

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Hello Balazs,

Do you know more exact location of the loss? Where Sqn 5/2 was based? In Charkow?Maybe I'll find the claim(s).
And are you sure the date is correct?

Best regards,
Andrey

[GaraiB]

Hello Andrey,

thanks for a replay.
Hungarian 5/2 Fighter Squadron stationed in Charkov-Osnava airfield until 8 August 1943. (Харьков-Основа)
A checked all few Hungarian source and probably the soviet victory date was 16 June 1943.
Exact location of the loss I do not know, between in somewhere Kursk-Harkov area.

Thanks,

Best regards,

Balazs

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Just have found the case in question.

08:40 msk 16.Jun.43 a fighter aircraft [from 310.IAD PVO] shot down a Bf109 1 km s.Orekhovo [village 10 km w. r/w station Valuiki]. Hungarian Obfw [name not mentioned] from 5/2 sqn became a POW.
He said his mission was an escort of 2 Ju88 in the raid against Valuiki station [~135 km ENE Kharkov]. The airfield of 5/2 sqn (11 Bf109F) is Kharkov-Osnova.

His unit typing as "512" but it is clearly erroneous typing of "5/2" from the handwritten draft report.

Whether the WNr and board code of his Bf109F are known?

Best regards,
Andrey

[GaraiB]

Hello Andrey,

this is amazing, I was waiting for this information. Now one little white spot disapeared.
Also very good information, that Jun 13 1943 5/2 Hungarian Fighter Squadron Bf109F planes were just usable 11 ps. Not so much.
Unfortunetly Bf109F’s WNr, stammk. number and board code were not known. (Sign probably started V.0+_ _). All Hungarian Bf109F-4s were from German II/JG77 and probaby I/JG52 Units, just for a front flying. All of them were used old planes.
But sure the plane was Bf109F-4, because the 5/I Hungarian Group got Bf109G-s just at 15 July 1943.

I attached Toth Zoltan picture from 1950.

Best regards,

Balazs

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

This week have looked at 310.IAD operative reports.
According to report, Toth's Bf109F was downed by Lt Berdnikov and s.Sgt. Lavyagin from 573.IAP (310.IAD). The plane inflamed in the air, the pilot has baled out and was captured.
That engagement wasn't purely one-sided. Zoltan Toth's fire has pierced the fuel tank of Lavyagin's Yak-7b. But the Yak-7b returned to the airfield successfully.

Best regards,
Andrey

[GaraiB]

Dear Andrey,

thank you. This was a big help.

Best regards,

Balazs

[Dénes Bernád]

That day, Hungarian fighters escorting Ju 88s targeting a train between Valiyuki and Kupyansk claimed two Aircobras, who were attacking the Junkerses. However, I could not identify the pilots who filed these claims (I found only the claim filed the next day, on 17 June, by Őrmester István Fábián, against a Yak-1).

[Monaco]

On 16.06.43 the later 16-victory-ace Ens István Fábián was credited with his first victory - details missing - probably in the Belgorod area.

I think, I got the info from an Osprey publication...

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Hello!

That day, Hungarian fighters escorting Ju 88s targeting a train between Valiyuki and Kupyansk claimed two Aircobras, who were attacking the Junkerses.

17.VA and 310.IAD PVO hadn't Aircobras at all, so Hungarians fought with other planes.

According to operative report of 17.VA for 16.Jun.43, 1 La-5 was downed in dogfight (pilot has baled out and safe) and 2 Yak-1 FTR. One Yak-1 was damaged in dogfight.

According to 288.IAD war diary, pilots of both missing Yak-1 has returned on 17.Jun.43. Bryzgunov has force-landed due to motor failure (pilot safe and the plane undamaged), Kazakov was damaged in dogfight and has nosed over during forced landing. Pilot had a contusion, fate of plane is unknown for me.

310.IAD hadn't any losses apart a slightly damaged Yak-7b mentioned in my previous post.

Also can’t find in OBD any personnel loss of 17.VA and 310.IAD on 16.Jun.43.

So in air combat 1 loss + 2 damaged planes (one of them maybe written off) against 7-8 German claims (8 if we count Lemke's (9./JG3) 2nd claim in unknown area) and 2 Hungarian claims in the sector in question.

Maybe other Russian participants can add some losses or damages if they were omitted in 17.VA’s operative report.

Best regards,
Andrey

[Dénes Bernád]

Thanks, Andrey, for the details.

The Hungarians observed six fighters - which they identified as Airacobras - taking off from Urasovo airfield to intercept the Ju 88 & Bf 109 formation. Perhaps this detail helps identifying the VVS unit.

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Hello Dénes,

Urasovo was a base for 573.IAP PVO (310.IAD). At that moment it had several Yak-1/Yak-7b and 2 Hurricanes ready for action, if remember right (I'll check it later today). Also 4 Yak-9 attached to 573.IAO from 802.IAP PVO.

Which documents of Hungarian AF have survived the war? War diaries, reports, claims/losses lists?

Best regards,
Andrey

[Dénes Bernád]

Which documents of Hungarian AF have survived the war? War diaries, reports, claims/losses lists?
Very-very few documents related to the Hungarian air force (and not only) survived the war and the following 'purges'. It is estimated that about 95% of the documents were lost. Therefore, it's very hard (if not impossible) nowadays to piece together the wartime events.

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Very-very few documents related to the Hungarian air force (and not only) survived the war and the following 'purges'. It is estimated that about 95% of the documents were lost.

So the situation like with Luftwaffe. It is regrettably :(
I had a hope to update the loss account of Lfl.4 during Apr.-Jun.43 by Hungarian AF losses for the full understanding of the situation.
Unfortunately GQM returns for the timeframe in question hasn't Hungarian AF entries.

Returning to 16.Jun.43: on Urasov airfield were ready for action 1 Yak-1, 7 Yak-7b, 2 Hurricanes of 573.IAP and 4 Yak-9 attached from 802.IAP.


The Hungarians observed six fighters - which they identified as Airacobras - taking off from Urasovo airfield to intercept the Ju 88 & Bf 109 formation.


According to operative report of 310.IAD, 7 fighters took off for intercept. Maybe all of them were Yaks. Their sole claim was Toth's Bf109F. How many Ju88s and Bf109s took part in the mission?

Best regards,
Andrey

[Dénes Bernád]

So the situation like with Luftwaffe. It is regrettably :(
Actually, it's worse. We still have a sizeable chunk of data regarding the Luftwaffe, but nothing similar about the Hungarian air force.

How many Ju88s and Bf109s took part in the mission?
As far as I know, three Ju 88s left the base to find and attack the Soviet train; however, one bomber returned early due to engine trouble. They were escorted by four '109s.

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Actually, it's worse.
:(

So Rumanian AF situation with documents seems a lucky exception in comparison with Germany and Hungary.


As far as I know, three Ju 88s left the base to find and attack the Soviet train; however, one bomber returned early due to engine trouble. They were escorted by four '109s.

Thank you! So Toth's words about 2 Ju88 are true. That is why so strange quantity instead of Kette.

I'll pay more attention to data about POW Hungarian pilots. It is a specific source but if the normal sources almost completely disappeared ...

Best regards,
Andrey