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robert_schulte
19th February 2005, 19:05
As my interests up till now were mainly the "later" years of the war, I'd like to expand it now to the Battle of Britain. So for an entry, I am looking for a good book about this topic, which is affordable and even more, which is available (in Germany).
I have several books on my list, the top two are:
"The most dangerous enemy" by Stephen Bungay
and "The Battle of Britain" by Richard Overy
Can anybody give me a recommendation, which book(s) I should buy? None of the above? Or both? What is in the one book that the other one does not handle?
A lot of questions... :roll:
Many thanks in advance
Robert

Nick Beale
20th February 2005, 00:55
Bungay's "Most Dangerous Enemy" gives an excellent analysis of the battle. I would recomment it.

However, it is not a good choice if you want day-by-day details of losses: for that "Battle of Britain Then and Now" is the one to get but it's expensive.

Dick Powers
20th February 2005, 07:46
I still like Frank Mason's "Battle Over Britain" and Wood and Dempster's "The Narrow Margin". Both, I think, are still availabe in the US. Not sure about Germany. Both books are similar in scope and,despite some factual mistakes are reasonably comprehensive.

RIchard Overy's book "The Battle of Britain" presents a good high level analysis of the BoB, but it assumes the reader is familiar with the battle. IT doesn't go into a lot of detail.

robert_schulte
20th February 2005, 11:13
Many thanks, I guess I'll start with Bungay's book. Can anybody tell me the difference between "The most dangerous enemy" and "The narrow margin"?

FalkeEins
20th February 2005, 14:27
well, the Narrow Margin was originally written in 1961 and provides a summarized daily chronicle that is not always necessarily as detailed as it could be..Bunguy's work appeared in 2000, the guy is an academic ( I think), a German linguist (I always think it helps) and re-examines the 'myth', providing a decent synthesis of all that has gone before, with much material drawn from the German side and incorporating the work of researchers such as Messrs Vasco & Cornwell & Goss..it is also extensively footnoted..and available in handy, cheap paperback format for reading on the train...

Nick Beale
20th February 2005, 22:37
I still like Frank Mason's "Battle Over Britain"

I agree with you 100%. I'm just not sure it's still available. Sure there are erros that have been recognised since it came out in 1969 but Mason gives a tremendous feel for unfolding events and also a valuable account of the evolution of air defence of Britain from the the Great war through to 1940.

Another good source was the Air Miistry daily bulletins from the Battle that were published by the UK Ministry of Defence on their website (www.mod.gov.uk) for the 60th Anniversary. I haven't checked if they are still there but if they are, they are evocative reading.

Dick Powers
20th February 2005, 23:18
"Battle OVer" Britain and "The MIghty Eighth" (published about the same time) were ground-breaking books in scope and presentation that set the standard for many years.

John Vasco
21st March 2005, 11:11
First of all, when it came out in 1969, it was the first to comprehensively cover the BoB on a day-to-day basis, and became the 'must-have' reference source for many researchers. For that, Mason must be applauded for what he produced, given the limited information available at the time.

However, when the second edition came out, it appears that the text was not updated to incorporate new facts and information that had been published in the meantime. That let the second edition down considerably.

Bringing things up to present, I'm afraid to say that now there are many things that are incorrect in it, and only by cross-checking with other works will a more accurate picture of some events become clear (I don't want to read in another book, for example, that S/Ldr. Thompson of 111 Sqdn. shot down Rubensdörffer on the Croydon raid!). By all means use Mason's books as a lead-in to exploring the BoB in greater detail, but don't take all that is said in there as gospel. If you do, you will come a cropper on many things.

Bungay's book is excellent in its research and analysis, and delivers findings and conclusions in a cogent way, demolishing forever some long-held 'myths' that have prevailed for decades. Peter Townsend's 'Duel of Eagles' is an excellent read. BoBT&N is an excellent source, but I know that a lot more information has come to light since it first appeared (this is not a criticism, my 'Stück Puch' friend!) and an updated edition would simply blow all competition away for all time!

The great thing is, new information and new photos are coming to light all the time, expanding our knowledge of that period. Long may it continue.


John Vasco

robert_schulte
22nd March 2005, 09:37
John,

many thanks for your kind comment, it is very informative. So, having received my copy of "The most dangerous enemy" now (though not looked in it yet), I guess I'll try to get a cheaper copy of BoBT&N at Ebay :D to get more in depth.

BTW, what do you mean with "Stück Puch"??? Never heard that expression.

Robert

John Vasco
23rd March 2005, 18:28
John,

BTW, what do you mean with "Stück Puch"??? Never heard that expression.

Robert

It is simply a friendly phrase used by myself and someone else. He will understand when he reads this thread.

Jim Oxley
28th March 2005, 03:05
Another book that I would strongly recommend be on everyone's shelf is "The Battle Of Britain-New Perspectives", by John Ray.

This book deals with the behind the scenes of Fighter Command, and is a real eye opener to the people who were involved at the command level. Covers in great depth how well/or not Fighter Command fought the battle, the Big Wing controversary, and the (at times) vicious in-fighting that was going on in the halls of the Air Ministry whilst the battle was being fought in the skies over south east Britain.

An extremely balanced and thoughtful presentation.

Ruy Horta
28th March 2005, 11:04
Another book that I would strongly recommend be on everyone's shelf is "The Battle Of Britain-New Perspectives", by John Ray.

Just to clear up matters, but is that the same book as:

The Battle of Britain
Dowding and the First Victory, 1940
John Ray

Sounds like it is. Might be that this is the name given to the paparback I bought published by Cassell, and your's is the original Arms&Armour title?

Your description sounds more or less the same.

I'll throw in my 2c., certainly not the best Battle of Britain book (can't help it but I still love the Mason book), but one that is very interesting for its difference:

Who Won the Battle of Britain
H.R. Allen

Don't expect the author to write about a German victory, but his analysis is different, sometimes rightly so, sometimes only with hindsight.

Personally I found the Battle of Britain introduction by Prien and his fellow writers to be briliant in their Die Jagdverbände... 4/I & II, especially their statistical conclusions with regard to the picture we've build based on previous (autobiographical) work and movies.

robert_schulte
6th April 2005, 21:56
Thanks for these new suggestions, will enter them in my list! Still being fixed on "Battle of Britain, Then and Now", are there major differences in the various editions? I could get a copy of 1982 relatively cheap, but what if the edition of let's say 1989 is much better?

Jim Oxley
7th April 2005, 01:23
Although not a book, I would recommend to anyone interested in the Battle Of Britain that they peruse the 'Battle Of Britain's Historical Society's ' website at
http://www.battleofbritain.net/contents-index.html

The amiount of information available is enormous. And having many original documents to read through really does provide the reader with exactly the flavour of those years.


As a side not to all the above books it is interesting to note that almost all authors - especially English - consider the Battle to have officially finished in late September/early October with the cessation of massed daylight raids. The Germans however did not consider the Battle Of Britain to have finished until mid 1941, with the end of major night raids.

An interesting difference in points of view. And it should be noted that more people died in night raids than in daylight raids.

Tony Williams
7th April 2005, 10:17
Thanks for the summaries, guys. I've been thinking about getting Bungay's book as I saw him being interviewed on a BoB TV programme and was favourably impressed.

If you want a summary of the armament issues of the planes, then this article on my website might be of interest:

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/BoB.htm

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

John Vasco
8th April 2005, 13:14
Although not a book, I would recommend to anyone interested in the Battle Of Britain that they peruse the 'Battle Of Britain's Historical Society's ' website at
http://www.battleofbritain.net/contents-index.html

The amiount of information available is enormous.

Treat what it says with great care. I looked up my favourite Luftwaffe aircraft details, and this is what it said: "...hand picked elite aircrew, the Bf110 was to prove no match for the Hurricane or Spitfire and soon started to succumb heavy losses. Soon, Bf110 formations were to be escorted themselves by Gruppes of Bf109s and even though the elite Erprobungsgruppe 210 had many major successes, the Bf110 which started out as a fighter escort was relegated to the role of just a fighter bomber after the Battle of Britain..."
Right. Hand-picked elite aircrew? Whoever wrote this has been looking in books written decades ago! Bf 110 crews were NOT 'hand-picked', not even Erprobungsgruppe 210 (always good for being a hand-picked elite bunch - NOT). Bf 110 formations were to be escorted themselves by Gruppes (sic) of Bf 109s. FFS, they weren't!!! There is not a single shread of evidence that shows Bf 110 pure fighter formations were escorted by Bf 109 units on flights to England. The only Bf 110 unit to receive fighter escort on occasions was Erprobungsgruppe 210, as they were undertaking fighter-bomber duties, and the paramount need was to get them to their target. Again, the person writing this is perpetuating a myth that has been believed for decades. When are people going to wake up and read modern, informed books that provide correct information, instead of regurgitating information that quite frankly is crap! Relegated to the role of just a fighter-bomber after the Battle of Britain. Go tell that to all the Aufklärungsgruppen aircrew that flew and died well beyond the Battle of Britain period, to the III./ZG 26 crews who flew fighter escort missions in the African Theatre, the JG 5 crews up on the northern Russian front, and ZG 1 flying Bf 110 G-2s in Reich Defence in 1943/44. Oh yes, and all the night fighter crews flying Bf 110s as well! What this person has written is totally misleading, but comes under the umbrella of what appears to be an official society. In fact, it is staggering in its incompetence. God help us if this is what people are reading and being educated in concerning the Battle of Britain and beyond.

I haven't gone over anything else on that site; what little I have read has switched me off already.

Tony, If you only ever get one more book on the Battle of Britain, it has to be Stephen Bungay's. Quite simply the best analytical book you will read on the period.


John Vasco

Jim Oxley
9th April 2005, 01:32
To be sure you will find incorrect facts and inconsistencies. Nevertheless it does have much to offer, and it is well worth perusing.

fsbofk
12th May 2005, 06:33
The 1982 edition of "The Battle of Britain - Then and Now" (referred to as the "Mk II" edition by the publisher, After the Battle) is the one I bought in 1983. As later editions were published, ATB issued supplementary booklets that included the revised Preface or Postscript portions of the book; I have the supplements to the Mk III and Mk V editions. You could contact ATB to see if they still offer the supplements for the editions which followed Mk II (they still publish the excellent "After the Battle - Then and Now" magazine). TBoBT&N is a valuable complement to any narrative history of the BoB, IMO.