View Full Version : Oblt W.Schroer, 109G, 8/JG27 with a red rudder ?

5th November 2006, 04:22
Just been browsing kagero 22, BF109 G / K,Vol II,
in the profiles is a 109G-2/Trop, Rhodes Island, Feb 1943, flown by Oblt Werner Schroer.
the rudder is red, under engine cowl yellow,white under wing tips and white fuselage band and a black/white spinner.
Anyone know if this profile/colours are correct ?

Tom Semenza
6th November 2006, 03:56

The same aircraft is shown in Sundin & Bergström's "More Luftwaffe Fighters in Profile (Schiffer 2002) also with a red rudder. This seems to me unlikely, but I could well be wrong. What seems even more unlikely, and something which has been shown in a number of publications, is Marseille's Bf 109F-4 trop (WNr. 8693) in Feb. 1942 with a red rudder. Certainly in early February the rudder appeared to be the same color as the main upper surface color but by mid-month appears to be a darker shade. How it came to be depicted as red (or possibly brown red per Prien in "Der Jadgfliegerverbände ... Teil 8/I) is not clear to me.

Going back to the subject of Schroer's aircraft, I would like to point out another apparent error which is found frequently, namely the Bf 109E-7 trop "Black 8" of 2./JG 27 in August 1941 which has been identified as the aircraft of Werner Schroer. The problem here is the fact that Schroer tranferred fro 2./JG 27 to 1./JG 27 in March 1941.

I would welcome comments from all forum members on these subejects.

Best wishes,


6th November 2006, 05:10
Hi Tom,
Many thanks for the info & detailed reply.
I must look out for Sundin & Bergström's More Luftwaffe Fighters in Profile (Schiffer 2002)

Leo Etgen
6th November 2006, 06:30
Hi guys

I may be wrong but is it not acknowledged that the Bf 109 E-7/Trop "Black 8" of 2./JG 27 that Tom mentioned was flown by Leutnant Hans Ellers? I hope that I am not making a fool of myself but I believe that was his name and rank.



6th November 2006, 13:21
Schroer flew till 190741 a "7" maybe black, then no flights till 18 aug. nd that time a "10" maybe black too, on 07. sept he flew 2 time with a "8" beg. of 1942 he flew a wn 8417 nd 1027../presum.. something like 10027/ so an 109F, with <A marking, concerning the red rudder ??? he flew at that time a "1" or "4",


7th November 2006, 01:27

Jerry Scutts – “Bf 109 Aces of North Africa and the Mediterranean” (Osprey Aircraft of the Aces vol. 2), profile of Schroer’s Bf 109 G-2/Trop “red 1”, staffelkapitän 8./ JG 27 at Rhodes, Feb. 1943: red rudder with 60 small white victory bars, white spinner and the fuselage band.
No yellow color at all, no white parts of wings.
On profiles in the other sources – rudder is always red.
It’s possible that victory bars were only on the left side of the rudder, but I’m not sure.
From the other hand it is good visible on the photos that spinner is black/white.
By the way – wasn’t Schroer in the rank of Hauptmann in that time? (some sources states that, Scutts also).

Marseille’s Bf 109 F-4/Trop W.Nr. 8693, Feb. 1942 – light brown rudder (brown red?). I think red is a mistake.

Bf 109 E-7/Trop “black 8” – I had informations until now that Schroer (as Leutnant) was flying this machine in April 1941, Gazala. But, indeed, he had to be a member of 1. Staffel – there is popular photo of 1./JG 27 pilots (Schroer as Fw.?, Redlich, Kaiser, Espenlaub and others) preparing to their long overwater flight from Catania to Gazala in early April.

Found in Ring/Girbig’s “Jagdgeschwader 27” – Feldwebel Franz Elles, 2./ JG 27, 5 victories, PoW December 11th 1941.
Hope he was the person You were writing about, Leo.



Leo Etgen
7th November 2006, 05:00
Hi guys

Thanks Nef for the correction. I am sure this is the guy that I had in mind. No wonder that I could not find any victory list information for "Ellers"!



7th November 2006, 05:39
thanks again for the info

7th November 2006, 14:03

In Classic Publications's book "Jagdwaffe The Mediterranean 1942-1943" Jean-Louis Roba & Martin Pegg, you can find two excellent images on the right and left side of this A/C, besides a great profile of Tom Tulis.
I wait to have helped.

E. Brettas
www.avesdobrasil.com.br (http://www.avesdobrasil.com.br)
Bird of Brazil

Jim P.
7th November 2006, 15:07
Schroer was in the first Staffel during most of 1941 - so a black number seems very unlikely, not to mention that in his logbook he is only listed as flying a machine coded '8' twice, and both times on the same day. During the spring/sumer of 41 he was using machines coded '11' and then '10'.

Franz Elles in 'black 8' was confirmed to me several years ago by Claes Sundin, who had interviewed Elles, after some specualtion and matching of claims on my part.

Franek Grabowski
7th November 2006, 18:08
And where are located original colour slides from this session?
PS Jim, have you got my mail?

7th November 2006, 22:51

Do You know the accurate date when Schroer flew machine coded ‘8’?
Was it in April?



Jim P.
9th November 2006, 19:15
Sept., twice same day. He had a dozen or more vics at time.

13th November 2006, 00:23
Thank You, Jim.

In these facts it’s almost certain Bf 109 E-7/Trop ‘black 8’ belonged to Elles (4 kill marks on the rudder).

Victories of Fw. Franz Elles:

1. 16.05.41 09.37 2./JG 27 Hurricane S Tobruk
2. 03.06.41 17.50 2./JG 27 Hurricane Gambut
3. 15.06.41 07.05 2./JG 27 Hurricane -
4. 16.06.41 11.55 2./JG 27 Hurricane S Bardia
5. 10.12.41 14.01 2./JG 27 Boston E Bir Hacheim

First victories of Lt. Werner Schroer, 1./JG 27:

1. 19.04.41 - 1./JG 27 Hurricane W Tobruk
2. 25.06.41 - 1./JG 27 Hurricane S Sidi Barrani
3. 08.07.41 - 1./JG 27 Hurricane W Bardia
4. 19.07.41 18.17 1./JG 27 P-40 NE Ras Asaz
5. 21.08.41 18.20 1./JG 27 Hurricane NE Bardia
6. 29.08.41 18.10 1./JG 27 P-40 NW Sidi Barrani
7. 14.09.41 15.55 1./JG 27 Hurricane S El Hambra
- 14.11.41 15.55 1./JG 27 Hurricane - (probably unconfirmed)
8. 30.05.42 14.05 Stab I/JG 27 P-40 NE Bir Hacheim