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Brettas
14th February 2007, 12:36
Hi Amigos,

Could anybody tell me who this a/c flew? Is it a Bf 109F-2 or F-4? And which JG?
http://www.foto4045.nl/vl_12.jpg
Thank you very much.
E. Brettas
www.avesdobrasil.com.br (http://www.avesdobrasil.com.br)
Birds of Brazil in watercolor

robert
14th February 2007, 14:50
Hi,


probably 8/JG53.


Regards

Robert

John Beaman
14th February 2007, 17:17
Hi Robert:

What is the basis for your speculation?

John

robert
14th February 2007, 17:42
Hi John,


the shape of the number, style of the victory bars and pretty wide "Ostband".

Regards

Robert

John Beaman
14th February 2007, 21:31
Well, Robert, some of us have been speculating about this a/c ID and I was hoping you had a definitive answer!

So, it looks like the Eastern Front as confirmed by the yellow band. It looks like an F. It looks like a celebration for a 20th victory. In the West that would get you the KC, and one might have been thought that way early in the Russian campaign, hence the celebration.

So, if you sort through the claims for guys getting their 20th on the Russian front, you get 140 hits, including Baer and a lot of others. I don't know....if it were later I'd say eliminate JG 54 because of the band location, but my impression is that those bands either as shown, or 51/54 style did not start until late in the year of '41. The camouflage has been supplemented, so it could be 3, 77 or 53. 54 had all those weird ones not like this a/c. Could be 51. Could be Gosemann, from JG 3 who lost a sw 8+I a year later and had 20. But if it was 1942 when he lost the machine, 20 Absch would not get you a KC! More like 120 needed!

Pure speculation on my part.

robert
14th February 2007, 22:13
Hi John,

some additional remarks:
JG3 - the "Ostband" was slimer
JG51 - white and short third group bar
JG77 - no third group bar

Regards

Robert

Miguel
14th February 2007, 23:15
8/JG3:
Numbers are usually square shaped. Band is narrow. It seems improbable.

This aside, it could only be Franz Beyer (20th on 15/07/41; 21-24 on 17/07/41).
Comment: the 20th bar is already painted, so the celebration is more according with getting four victories in the same day.

8/JG51
I do not know any photo of the 8th in 1941 but in 1942 the numbers are square shaped. The bar is always white and the band narrow.
Improbable, as well.
Only two candidates in the 8th:
Fritz Stendel (19-21 on 08/10/41)
Bernhard Lausch (20 on 22/10/41).
The clothing of the people cheering does not fit with the Russian October.

8/JG52 and 8/JG54
No third Gruppe bar but wavy line.
No sense to continue

8/JG53
Same type of number, bar and band.
Candidate? only one:
Herbert Schramm (20 on13/07/41 and 21 on 14/07/41)

8/JG77
No third Gruppe bar. Dark camouflage. Narrow band. Small and square numbers. Improbable

Resume: Everything points to 8/JG53 and specifically to Herbert Schramm.

Unless the photo was taken in 1942...
In this case, all the physical details given before continue being valid. The only difference is that 8/JG53 was in the Mediterranean.

Saludos.
Miguel