Westland Whirlwinds V FW190 or 109's

[Jon]

Did the Westland Whirlwind ever get involved in dog fight's with either the BF109 or FW190, if so how did this type get on against the two top Luftwaffe day fighters?
I have read it was involved in ground attack but it must have been engaged by the Luftwaffe at some time when operating over France?

Also other than the obvious disadvantages of a twin engined fighter, why did the RAF not develop this aircraft as the Americans did the P38 and the Germans the BF110?

Thanks
Jon

[Andy Fletcher]

Hi Jon,

I can find 13 claims by Luftwaffe fighter pilots for Whirlwinds, the last one being on 14Apr43 Lt Wilhelm Godt 8/JG2. This appears to correspond to the loss of Sgt J. Macauley 263 Sqn (KIA) flying Whirlwind I (P7010).

Infact most of the claims were made by pilots of III/JG2.

I believe the Whirlwind wasn't developed because of it's peregrine engines. Priority was given to Merlin production/development so the peregrine was allowed to wither taking the Whirlwind with it. If I remember correctly only just over a hundred Whirlwinds were built. I don't know if trials were ever done to fit Merlins. Also don't forget the RAF had the excellent Mosquito which could be used in numerous roles.

I'm sure others can elaborate/add more about the Whirlwind.

Andy Fletcher

[Kutscha]

Jon,

this is what a website says about the Whirlwind.

As WWII became increasingly likely the Royal Air Force determined that it was deficient in a powerfully armed aircraft that could undertake long-range escort duties and night-fighter operations. A requirement not all that different from the German's Messerschmitt Bf-110. From a specification drawn up in 1937 came the Westland Whirlwind, a heavily armed escort fighter. It had some teething problems related to the Rolls Royce Peregrine engine and the fact that it's landing speed was 80 mph, which meant that it could not use the standard grass field of a British aerodrome. The long, slender nose of the Whirlwind was at odds with the powerful armament of four 20-mm cannons. It showed some promise in combat, however, like its German counterpart it was not agile enough to successfully combat enemy fighters.

After some deliberation the RAF purchased only 112 and equipped only two squadrons, No.s 137 and 263, with the aircraft. After initial use as an escort fighter, it was relegated to convoy patrols and eventually as a "Whirlybomber" flying low-level "rhubarbs" with bombs and cannons against targets of opportunity in France. It was phased out of use in 1942 as better aircraft (primarily the Typhoon and Beaufighter) were being put into service that would outperform it at a lower cost. The Typhoon could carry the same armament with a single engine, and the Beaufighter was even more powerfully armed and used Bristol radial engines that were in greater supply. Also, Rolls Royce dropped the Peregine engine to focus on producing the Merlin series of engine.

Technical Details

The Whirlwind was a single seat, twin engined fighter powered by a pair of Rolls Royce Peregrine I engines. They each generated 885 hp and could move the Whirlwind up to 360 mph. The range was about 800 miles with a ceiling of 30,000 feet.

It was powerfully armed with four 20-mm Hispano Mk I cannons in the nose with 60 rounds per gun and could carry up to 1000 lbs of bombs on two underwing racks.

It also was one of the earliest a/c to have a bubble canopy.

[JeffK]

The Whirlwind is very high on my list of the most beautiful aircraft built.

Rolls Royce had problems with the Peregrine engines (and no other aircraft used them), it could have been available earlier than July 1940 otherwise.

Part of the problem in replacing the 885hp Peregrines with 1000+hp Merlins would have been the size of the aircraft.

Wingspan was 45ft versus 40ft of the Hurricane and it was 32ft9" long versus 32ft2" for the Hurri.

Only 112 Whirlwinds were built.

[Jon]

Thanks for all the responses.
Did the Whirlwind squadrons claim many air to air kills, it may not have been very good in a dog fight but i would imagine any aircraft on the wrong end of 4 20mm cannon especially as they were all in the nose and so with a massive hitting power would have not got away with it ?

The BF110 less armed and i would guess less agile still achieved a great many kills against the Hurricane and Spitfire.

Thanks
Jon

[Chris Goss]

Jon-There were numerous combats and in most cases the Whirlwind came off worse. As to kills, there were a number but a number of them were over optimistic. For example, 263 Sqn claimed to have damaged 2 FW 190s-the logbook of the German pilot they met proves otherwise!

[brewerjerry]

Hi,
only 190 shot down by a whirlwind I know of is :-

8/JG26 190 flown by Uffz Wälter, 28 jan 43, shot down by Musgarve of 137Sq,
( this whirlwind flown had previously shot down a DO-217 in july '42)

there were a few 109's, couple of Ju-88's, a DO-217, a Ar-196, a HE-III and unfortunately an RAF blenheim.

Merlin's XX's were offered by westlands to the RAF in early'41, but they declined them , as in mid'40 the RAF declined the american engined version.
Engine size & weight wasn't the problem , A letter from westlands describes having curred the problem (which was undercarriage retraction).

Seems they were kept out of the fighting initially , as they were the heaviest armed a/c and only ones capable of attacking tanks, if an invasion occurred, then afterwards it was a bit to late, and they were convoy escorting , or later ground/shipping attack.
Only successful combats really were when they tackled 'same era' 109E's in 41, ' F's and 190's were a bit to advanced for it to handle.

R-R 'fixed' a whirlwind by 'modding' it and got good results, but again this was to late.

the majority of the aircraft destroyed by whirlwind, were however on the ground, the strange thing is despite the nose cannons, there seems to be no records of enemy aircraft blowing apart.

Seems from records, the whirlwind was a victim of fate, circumstances and some politics.
But for an aircraft with only 116 [correct figure] a/c built it is very well known.
cheers
Jerry

[Christer Bergström]

The Swedish 137 Sqn. volunteer pilot P/O Ralph Häggberg was posted as missing after getting shot down in his Whirlwind - possibly by JG 2's Egon Mayer - on 12 February 1942. See:
http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/swedish_aviators/haggberg.htm

[brewerjerry]

Hi,
I often wonder if , per a/c made, the whirlwind pecentage wise , was flown by more pilots of different nationalities, than other RAF a/c.
It seems almost every nationality flew a whirlwind at some time.
Anyone ever seen a photo of Haggberg ?
I can't ever recall having seen one.
Cheers
Jerry

[Franek Grabowski]

I am not awared of any Poles flying Whirlwinds operationally, perhaps ferry pilots only. One nationality less...

[brewerjerry]

Hi Franek,
true, can't find any poles or czech,
might be a new line of research for me whirlwind ferry flights ...
cheers
Jerry

[Andy Mac]

http://www.aviartnutkins.com/images/pilots/large/A23.jpg

Indeed a lovely aircraft. Can you imagine it with a pair of Merlins!

[brewerjerry]

Hi
A lovely painting , but a pity the research wasn't done....
the aircraft colour scheme is actually operation starkey 1943 not dieppe 1942.
but none the less great....
cheers
Jerry

[Ruy Horta]

Imagine the Whirlwind vs the Fw 187*, could have been a nice match up.

*as originally conceived.

[brewerjerry]

Hi Ruy,
My two favourite aircraft in one sentence,
It would be nice one day, to see replicas of both built, maybe if I win the lottery.....
Cheers
Jerry

[Knut Larsson]

No Norwegians eitherRegards

Knut

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/images/icons/icon13.gif

[en830]

When was that picture done, and is Fred Green still alive ?