More Questions about Hurricanes

[Alex Smart]

Hi,

Some more questions about hawker hurricanes.

From information gleaned from books and websites I find that the Hurricanes that were earmarjked for Finland were flown over from the late February early March of 1940.

RAF serials for twelve a/c but so far only eleven havbe I been able to find.
They are -
N2322;N2323;N2324;N2327;N2347;N2348;N2358;N2392;N2 393;N2394 and N2395.

However as I said these were flown over in late Feb early March of 1940.
But I also have the following -

On the 25th April 1940 N2358 was in collision with L2013 of 605 Sqdn which spun in some 6 miles North of Thurso,Cathness.

How can this be ? Is the serial number of the a/c that L2013 was in collision with , incorrect or is the serial number of the one sent to Finland incorrect ?

And does anyone know the serial number of the twelth a/c sent to Finland ?

Thanks in advance
Alex

[paulmcmillan]

"And does anyone know the serial number of the twelth a/c sent to Finland ?"

The 12 serials are: N2322
N2323
N2324
N2325
N2327
N2347
N2348
N2350
N2392
N2393
N2394
N2395


"N2358 is the aircraft often stated (mistakenly) in various sources as being sold to Finland
The doubt about N2350 vs. N2358 is partly because N2358 had been in service with No.79 Squadron
only a few weeks before the transfer to Finland, (unlike all the other listed aircraft) and
there is no record of it leaving that unit - but 79 Sqdn arrived in France the day the German
invaded and records may well not have survived to show what happened to their aircraft.
N2358 was delivered to No.79 Squadron. on 23.12.39. Also (despite FK Mason saying that N2350
was flown to France and abandoned there) there is no record of a fate for N2350 on the A.M. card,
but its engine number (A.119136, R-R serial number 3921) is that shown in Finnish records for HC-455.
It can now be established that N2358 never went to Finland.
There is an IWM photo of N2358 taken in France in April 1940, coded 'Z' and apparently of
No.1 Squadron at Vassincourt, whereas the aircraft for Finland were all delivered in February 1940.
Tie-ups of engine serial numbers suggest that the supposed N2358 sent to Finland was actually N2350.”

[paulmcmillan]

PS your missing one is N2325 which while 'sold to Finland' never got there!

N2325
5 MU
2.2.1940
27.2.1940 –
returned to RAF
5515/A119933
HU461

Stranded at Wick 28.02.40. When the right main gear of collapsed, resulting in a ground loop and a broken wing tip. Never delivered. Ensign Taskinen. Taskinen had to stay at Wick till the armistice between Finland and the Soviet Union.

The history card for N2325 shows: that it was 'sold to Finland' on 2.2.40 and that it had R-R Merlin 5515 (A.119933). On 3.8.40 it was taken on charge at No.46 MU Lossiemouth, presumably after local repair somewhere in Scotland. It went on to serve with 11 EFTS, 59 OTU, 2nd TAF Comm Flt. and No. 5(P)AFU before being struck off charge at Morrisons Aircraft on 3.1.45 as 'Cat. E.'


Finally, the Fins had a 12th Hurricane


Z2585

28.11.1942
HC-465
Captured 28.11.1942 (from the Soviets). Last flown 31.05.1944. Retired 08.10.1944. Total flight time 18 h 40 min.

[paulmcmillan]

Also (to finish this off)

Is the serial number of the a/c that L2013 was in collision with , incorrect or is the serial number of the one sent to Finland incorrect ? Yes to muddy the waters - The two aircraft were;


605 Sqn a/c as L2052 (Sgt R M Mainland - Killed) & L2013 (P/O Currant). Latter force-landed at Wick with damage to fin and canopy.

[Alex Smart]

Hello and Thank You Paul,

That has made the whole issue clear to me now.

How about explaining the issue of the OH-IPA to OH-IPL codes being used by these Hurricane's but that these same codes being used by the Bristol Blenheim's too.

And can these OH codes be now matched to the RAF serial numbers ?

Thank you
Alex

[paulmcmillan]

Alex

This is the first time I have heard that the OH-IPA to OH-IPL codes were issued to the Hurricanes. While I have a Finnish Serial/RAF Serial matchup, I do not have any info on these codes.

Paul

[Mirek Wawrzynski]

Hi
FAF had bought 12 HS mark I, There were transfered in 2 flight each 6 planes with support of RAF palens as a "leaders" and rescue planes.
Two HC were lost, one in Scotland in Wick (HU461 - small damage but never had come to Finalnd, only pilot had returend to Finland).
And I think it was rather on 29 II, then on 28 II.
Second had crashed on Norway's island - Egero - total wreck (it was HU462), pilot was badly injured.

Civil codes were given and even painted during transfer flight over Sweden, when Finnish Hurricanes had come to Norway next step was to make overflight over neutral Sweden. So they (as others ex-British planes to Finland) had got civil codes to "cover" military planes. This was the reason for implementing this codes for one flight.

I think that all FAF's Hurricanes were not factory fresh fighters, but after general overhauls "second-hand" machines


The next 13-en or 11-th Hurricane (depends as you want to count) was in fact a total hybrid made from 2 others Hurricanes Mark II, captured from Soviet (ex-VVS planes) in 1942-43. In fact (leter HC-465) was captured by Finns about 16 February 1942 (it was Mark IIA most probably from 760. IAP - there are 2 photos in my book of it).

This plane was used as a hack plane, not as a fighter. In 1943 Hurricanes I were total old and not full servicable.

Some history about FAF's Hurricanes I had made in my book about Hurricanes in Foreign Service from 2001 (now it is old text, which should be upgarded and I have done this, probably will be printed in Polish language this year).

Regards,
MirekW

PS
It is much probably taht the same codes were used in the transfer - overflight - by Blenheim and by Hurricanes crews. This was painted only for one flight. After coming to Finland it was removed.
There is well know left side photo of HU460 were is very poor, but still visible, civil codes letters.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Hi Paul

I would be interested in your source related to L2052. According to Air Britain this aeroplane never belonged to 605Sq. It also seems to have had a long and faithful service, ending its days with 59 OTU and SOC April 5th ,1945. All this does not sound like a fatal crash...

Now, Air Britain also states it crashed with N2358, which seems to be a long shot with it in France and all, and never with 605 Sq either....

But why L2052???

Hi Mirek
I suppose your source for the civil Hurricane registrations is the article by Kari Stenman in Air Enthusiast? I have been looking at the picture published in the article, and to me no former civil registration is visible. Incidentally when Stenman published the same photo the first time, he didn't see any registration either... To state that civil registrations were necessary to pass Sweden is possibly correct, but on every photo I have seen, on Brewsters, Moranes, Lysanders, DC-2 etc, none is visible. All aeroplanes carried full Finnish serial number and the only caution taken was to paint out the Finnish military insignia making it into a white roundel.
These aeroplanes were assembled in a couple of places (Trollhattan, Gothenburg and Malmo airfields) and also passed a couple of military bases on their way to Finland. Photography was prohibited, so there are not many pictures that has survived. Of course I have not seen any Hurricane shots taken in Sweden... :(. But as I said, I am the first to be happy if anyone can provide a civil registered Hurricane in Sweden!!!
Black and white will do just fine...:)

Cheers
Stig

[paulmcmillan]

Stig

This subject was discussed here:

http://www.rafcommands.com/dcforum/DCForumID6/10917.html

Re-reading it again...

It might BE that Currant was on L2052 (which had slight damage) and so could have had subsequent history you mention and Mainland was on L2013 (or in fact L2103 ???) - BTW Air Britain is not infallible in respect to listing all aircraft with a Sqn... The only way to confirm is by checking indvidual record and accident cards for the serials... However I am sure it is NOT N2358

BTW I have the following serial tie ups for Finnish Hurricanes (based on reaseach in RAF and Finnish archives) - Can anyone match the OH-IPA to OH-IPL codes to a Finnish Serial ?

RAF Finnish
Serial Serial
N2322 HU459
N2323 HU458
N2324 HU460
N2325 HU461
N2327 HU457
N2347 HU462
N2348 HU454
N2350 HU455
N2392 HU456
N2393 HU451
N2394 HU452
N2395 HU453

PS Mirek

Thanks for the correction over the date (29th Feb)

[Graham Boak]

If the aircraft had previous RAF service, it is very unlikely that the serials would have been so closely clustered. They look much more like 12 aircraft taken from one corner of an MU, pre-delivery. However, any previous history will be present in the Air Britain books - worth a look tonight, perhaps?

[paulmcmillan]

Graham

The aircraft were all taken from existing stock held at either
5 M.U. Kemble or 20 M.U. Aston Down

[Alex Smart]

Hello to you All,
Many thanks for your input.

Re info, F.K.Mason in his now old book by Macdonalds has on page 155 that these hurricanes were destined for Poland but were diverted to the Middle East.

Anyway from what I have gleaned from this discussion and from other books and websites.

RAF Finnish
Serial Serial
N2322 HU459
N2323 HU458
N2324 HU460
N2325 HU461 = OH-IPK, Force landed Scotland 28-2-40(? 29th).
N2327 HU457 = Crashed 3-6-1940 pilot V. Pinomaa killed.
N2347 HU462 = OH-IPL, Crashed in Norway 2-3-40.
N2348 HU454 = Photo shows Snow Ski undercarrage fitted.
N2350 HU455 = OH-IPE
N2392 HU456
N2393 HU451
N2394 HU452 = OH-IPB
N2395 HU453 = Lost 25-6-1941 pilot A. Teuri, killed.

It is said that the book from Air Britain Archive Special number 5 has all the answers and is more reliable than the new Koala book but as I have neither I do not know which has the best info.
Looking forward to further answers

All the very best
Many thanks
Alex

[paulmcmillan]

Alex

I have asked on AB-IX if anyone can look up Archive Special Number 5

ISBN 0 85130 199 1 Complete Finland Since 1926 by E. Ritaranta & T. Makinen published in 1992

[Mirek Wawrzynski]

Hi Stig


I suppose your source for the civil Hurricane registrations is the article by Kari Stenman in Air Enthusiast? I have been looking at the picture published in the article, and to me no former civil registration is visible. Incidentally when Stenman published the same photo the first time, he didn't see any registration either... To state that civil registrations were necessary to pass Sweden is possibly correct, but on every photo I have seen, on Brewsters, Moranes, Lysanders, DC-2 etc, none is visible. All aeroplanes carried full Finnish serial number and the only caution taken was to paint out the Finnish military insignia making it into a white roundel.
These aeroplanes were assembled in a couple of places (Trollhattan, Gothenburg and Malmo airfields) and also passed a couple of military bases on their way to Finland. Photography was prohibited, so there are not many pictures that has survived. Of course I have not seen any Hurricane shots taken in Sweden... :(. But as I said, I am the first to be happy if anyone can provide a civil registered Hurricane in Sweden!!!
Black and white will do just fine...:)



I have civil codes list directly from Kari Stenman, this is one list of HUs codes. There is second one printed in, if right remembr, in Finnish book about planes codes, which sligtly different from Kari's ones.

So far I do not seen the Hurri with black letter on the fuselage too, but I say agian on HU460 is visible very weak, but I see it, the siluettes of black latters.

This photo was done after coming to Finland (it is given in my book too), Maybe not all planes had got (?). Maybe very fast, after coming, were simple removed by crews. So noone had the camera to make photos first and we assuming about this, :-).

The planes, in my opinion, only overfly over Sweeden, without any intermediate landing there. It was direct flight from Norway to Finland over Sweeden.

BTW in the book about Hurricanes and Gladiator by Stenman and Keskinen it is done only color drawing of one such Hurricane, but this of course are not supported by hard evidence - photo (OH-IPL on HU460) with visible letters. The backgroud for this drawing is the photo of HU460 with very weak visible, outline of the latters, mentioned earlier.

Next. There is 2 photos of Blenheim in LeR 4 book (the same authors), where on FAF's Blenheim I (BL-134) are painted the black letter OH-IPA, see page 6 and 8.

So it is most probably that civil codes were used only for transfer flight no matters about flying types - to "cover" military of the planes - neutrality of Sweden. Maybe it could be painted on a few not all planes which overflown Sweden.

Regards
Mirek W

PS
I think, but this could be wrong, that on the FAF's Lysanders, there were cachted the civil registration too, this is only my assumption. I think that a few years ago I have see such photos with this type (?).

[paulmcmillan]

Mirek

Can you please publish your civil cide/HU list?

Thanks

Paul

[paulmcmillan]

ISBN 0 85130 199 1 Complete Finland Since 1926 by E. Ritaranta & T. Makinen published in 1992 Air Britain Archive Special Number 5


"Wartime Military OH-Registrations

During the Winter War 1939-1940 imported military aircraft were given a civil-like radio call-sign, and in many cases it was stenciled onto the aircraft. Registrations OH-IPA to OH-IPL were mostly used. The following are known:

OH-IPA Bristol Blenheim Mk.IV BL-122
Bristol Blenheim MK.I BL-134
Westland Lysander Mk.I LY-

OH-IPB Bristol Blenheim Mk.IV BL-123
Westland Lysander Mk.I LY-

OH-IPC Bristol Blenheim Mk.IV BL-124

OH-IPD Bristol Blenheim Mk.IV BL-125
Bristol Blenheim MK.I BL-137

OH-IPE Bristol Blenheim Mk.IV BL-126
Hawker Hurricane Mk.I HU-

OH-IPF Bristol Blenheim Mk.IV BL-127

OH-IPG Bristol Blenheim Mk.IV BL-128

OH-IPH Bristol Blenheim Mk.IV BL-129

OH-IPI Bristol Blenheim Mk.IV BL-130

OH-IPJ Bristol Blenheim Mk.IV BL-131

OH-IPK Bristol Blenheim Mk.IV BL-132

OH-IPL Bristol Blenheim Mk.IV BL-133
Hawker Hurricane Mk.I HU-460

Evidently even more Blenheim’s, Lysander’s and Hurricane’s ferried in these batches were carrying visible markings"

[Stig Jarlevik]

Hi All

As I said, there is no evidence there were any physical markings of these "civil regs" when passing Sweden. The Lysanders for example, where many were assembled Torslanda (GOT airport at the time), none are visible.

They were certainly applied as radio call signs, which does not mean they had to apply them physically on the aeroplane.

I still don't agree that they are faintly visible (painted out) on HU 460 even if the paint work could make a slight resemblance. I am not convinced until I get a photo of one with the radio call signs applied.

I don't believe any were applied to aeroplanes assembled or landed in Sweden. Not one single photo appears which proves any were applied. Possibly it could be true for aeroplanes just overflying the country....
so again, just give me proof!

Cheers
Stig

[Alex Smart]

Hello Stig,

I agree that there have been no photographic evidence that I know of that the Hurricanes in question ever wore the OH-IPA to OH-IPL markings.Although the one that crashed on the delivery flight has the very sections of fuselage torn off where it would most likely have been applied.

These codes may well have been allotted but never applied to the aircraft in the case of the Hurricanes.

This may also have applied to the Lysanders too.

But I do have in books photos of the Blenheims which do have the OH-IPA markings .( Additional, I have read somewhere that the code was "OH-IBA" and not "OH-IPA".

Further though not the same,the Gladiators had the serial numbers applied under the lower wings in the early photos, I assume pre Winter War.

Keep up the good work.

Alll the best
Alex