Bristol Blenheim's

[Alex Smart]

Hello,

Not sure how if at all the following info that I have matched up will help with finding RAF serial numbers of the Finnish AF Blenheims, or indeed the Manufacturers serial numbers to match any RAF serial number .

Greek AF

RAF - Civil - Bristol
Serial Serial
L6670
L8384
L8385
L6658
P4910 - G-AFXD - 9392
P4911 - G-AFXE - 9393
P4915 - G-AFXF - 9397
P4916 - G-AFXG - 9398
P4921 - G-AFXH - 9403
P4922 - G-AFXI - 9404
P6891 - G-AFXJ - 9416
P6892 - G-AFXK - 9417
P6897 - G-AFXL - 9422
P6898 - G-AFXM - 9423
P6903 - G-AFXN - 9428
P6904 - G-AFXO - 9429

Yugoslavia

RAF - Civil Yugo
Serial
L6813
L6814
L6817
L6818 - YU-BAR-60
L6819 - YU-BAS-61
L6821 - YU-BAQ-59
L6822 - YU-BAT-62
L6823 - YU-BAE-47
L6824 - YU-BAD-46
L6825 - YU-BAA-43
L6826 - YU-BAR-44
L6827 - YU-BAC-45
L6828 - YU-BAL-54
L6829 - YU-BAM-55
L6830 - YU-BAP-58
L6831 - YU-BAN-56
L6832 - YU-BAO-57
L6833
L6834
- YU-BAF-48
- YU-BAG-49
- YU-BAH-50
- YU-BAI-51
- YU-BAJ-52
- YU-BAK-53

Parts were sold by Germany to Finland late in the War.
Also One (Serial unknown as yet) defected to Hungary to be coded J-104 in the Hungarian AF.

Some (Quantity ?) also were later to be used by the Croatian AF.

Rumania

RAF - Rumanian
Serial Serial
L6696
L6697
L6698
L6699
L6700
L6701
L6702
L6703
L6704
L6705
L6706
L6707
L6708
L6713
L6714
L6715
L6716
L6717
L6718
L8603
L8604
L8605
L8606
L8607
L8608
L8619
L8620
L8622
L8624
L8625
L8626
L8627
L8628
L8629
L8630
L8632
L8652
L8653
L8654

Turkey

RAF...........Civil..........Turkish........Bristo l
Serial.........................serial..........ser ial
................................2501...........815 5
................................2502...........815 6
.............G-AFFP.........2503...........8157
.............G-AFFR.........2504...........8158
.............G-AFFS.........2505...........8159
.............G-AFFT.........2506...........8160
.............G-AFFU.........2507...........8161
.............G-AFFV.........2508...........8162
.............G-AFFW........2509...........8163
.............G-AFFX.........2510...........8164
.............G-AFFY.........2511...........8165
.............G-AFFZ.........2512...........8166
.............G-AFLA.........2513...........9222
.............G-AFLB.........2514...........9223
.............G-AFLC.........2515...........9224
.............G-AFLD.........2516...........9225
.............G-AFLE.........2517...........9226
.............G-AFLF.........2518...........9227
.............G-AFLG.........2519...........9228
.............G-AFLH.........2520...........9229
.............G-AFLI..........2521...........9230
.............G-AFLJ..........2522...........9231
.............G-AFLK..........2523...........9232
.............G-AFLL..........2524...........9233
.............G-AFLM.........2525...........9234
.............G-AFLN.........2526...........9235
.............G-AFLO.........2527...........9236
.............G-AFLP.........2528............9237
.............G-AFLR.........2529............9238
.............G-AFLS.........2530............9239

Portugal

RAF
Serial
R2775
R2781
R3623
R3830
N3544
N3600
T2431
T2434
V5429
V5434
V5501
V5729
V5883
V6395
Z7492
Plus at least five more.

Finland

18 a/c
BL104 - OH-IBA
through to
BL121 - OH-IBR
I do not think that these a/c were ever given RAF serial numbers as I ubderstand that they were delivered straight from the Factory to Finland.

and

12 a/c
G-EZIN - BL122 - OH-IPA
through to
G-EZIY - BL-133 - OH-IPL
These I expect were the First Mk IV's delivered from January 1940.
RAF serial numbers were
L9025
L9026
L9028
L9195
L9196
L9197
L9198
L9199
L9200
L9201
L9202
L9203

One of these was lost over the North Sea on the delivery flight.

Can anyone match these RAF serials to either the Civil or Finnish serials please ?

Then
12 a/c
G-EZAA - BL134 - OH-IPA
through to
G-EZAL - BL145 - OH-IPL
These are said to be those that included RAF srerial numbers -
L1345
L1347
L1354
L1362
Eight more serial numbers required to completye this batch.


And then for one Force

G-AFCE - 8814
G-AFCF - 8815

Refs: were
Scramble Turkish Military Aircraft since 1912
Air Britain books K-File; L1000 to N9999;P1000 to R9999;T1000 to V9999; W1000 to Z9999.
Air Enthusiast Bi monthly

RAF Serial Numbers and Civil codes welcome as is any info that will hepl match the numbers for those Finnish a/c.

Many Thanks for any help.

Alex

[newcomer]

Hi to all! I am interesting to know does two-digit ciphers after yugoslav civil registrations mean construction numbers from Avro factory?

Kind regards

Newcomer

[Stig Jarlevik]

Alex

With regard to Greece the first batch of Mk IV were registered/serialled B.251 to B.262 and used by 32 Mira. Nothing known, of course,if they were serialled in consequtive order.

According to Greek sources they received from various RAF units SIX Mk I, which received serials B.263 to B.268. B.268 is known to have been captured by the Germans...

Cheers
Stig

[Stig Jarlevik]

Alex

I have tried to update the Jugoslav Blenheims for you TWICE, but all the time encounter problems with the TOCH connections. I refuse to write the details a third time, so if you are interested, drop me a personal note on hagel.jarlevik@bredband.net

Cheers
Stig

[Alex Smart]

hello Stig,
I have sent you an e-mail
Alex

[Snautzer]

Bristol Blenheim L6670 UQ-R Abschuss Afrikakorpspictures of crashed pplane now on ebay https://www.ebay.de/itm/134148279203?hash=item1f3bdc4ba3:g:9w8AAOSw~~Riqw9 4

[Alex Smart]

Hi,
Thank you for the update with the picture said to be L6670 UQ⊙R.
The only photos of L6670 that I have seen show L6670 with only the Squadron Code "UQ" .Although some references do say that it was at some time "UQ⊙R".
However
It is my belief that the aircraft shown in this photograph is L6660 which was wrecked on 17th September 1940 when it undershot during a night landing, bounced and hit a car. This was at Qotafiya. The aircraft was damaged beyond repair.
While L6670 began with 203 Sqdn then moved on to 211 Squadron before being transferred to the Royal Hellenic Air Force from 1st April 1941.

Other Blenheim's in the L66?? serial number range that were with 211 Sqdn were
L6634 - SOC 1.3.44.
L6650 - To 27 Sqdn then to 353 Sqdn.
L6655 - To 72 OTU.
L6658 T RHAF 1.4.41.(I overlooked this one in my first post).
L6660 DBR 17.9.40
L6661 - Mia(ElAdem) 22.7.40.
L6670 - To RHAF 1.4.41.
(ref: AB L1000-N9999).

Alex

[Stig Jarlevik]

There is a problem with that theory Alex

It would mean L6660 was laying around at its crash place until the Afrika Korp
arrived.
I have failed to locate Qotafiya on a map, so don't even know if the Afrika Korp actually did arrive in the first place.

But just like you I have second thoughts if the aircraft really is L6670....

Cheers
Stig

[Alex Smart]

Hello Stig,
I think that my spelling was wrong, see the link -

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=19849

RAF Quotafia, Libya.

From a 2001 post on the RAF Commands Forum -
LG 21 Qotafiyah III - 9 nautical miles southwest of Daba

LG 104 Qotafiyah II - 7.5 nautical miles northwest of Daba

LG 20 Qotafiyah I - on the northern fringes of LG 104

Note: Forum spelling, this time not mine :)
Alex

[Stig Jarlevik]

Sorry Alex

Makes no difference how we spell it, Google Maps cannot find it anyway.
Luckily I located a list with all the British LG listed including coordinates so Qotafiyah (as it is spelled there)
was either LG-020, -021 or 104. All of them pretty much to the east and probably close to El Alamein.
(All I get is map with Arab inscriptions, which is a dead end for me....)

If the Luftwaffe (or Afrika Korp) ever captured any of them is an open question, but they cannot
have been there for long.

Would it have been possible for the wreck of the crashed L6660 to still be around that late?
After all we are talking about some two years here. I myself am very doubtful about that.

Cheers
Stig

[Nick Beale]

Spellings vary in documents of the time but Qotafiya seems to be favourite with the RAF; for the Luftwaffe, Qoteifiya.

If the Luftwaffe (or Afrika Korp) ever captured any of them is an open question

They did take Quotafiya.

From ULTRA, on 27 September 1942: "Return flight of KF+UX to QOTEIFIYA uncertain. Arrival in BARDIA will be reported". (KF+UX was a Ju 52).

On 14 October: "… it is requested: 1) That a transport aircraft be placed at our disposal immediately for a pressing transport of equipment from QOTEIFIYA to BENGHAZI and vice versa …"

An Air Ministry Intelligence signal to RAF ME dated 12 November 1942 lists sites where German radars are thought to have been installed and this includes an "FMG" at Qoteifiya. (The hope was that German sets could be captured during the post-Alamein advance).

[Stig Jarlevik]

Thanks Nick

The three LG were thus west of El Alamein.
But I still don't believe a wreckage would be there some two years after it crashed....

Cheers
Stig

[Matti Salonen]

Alex,

You can find very extensive information on the Finnish Blenheims in the magazine "Suomen Ilmailuhistoriallinen Lehti":

https://sites.google.com/view/ilmailuhistoriallinenlehti

You can contact the publisher Pentti Manninen using:

inscale72production@gmail.com

Matti

[Matti Salonen]

Alex,

Because you have not contacted the publisher of the magazine "Suomen Ilmailuhistoriallinen Lehti", he (Pentti Manninen) has compiled for you the main points of the topic, which have been discussed in several issues of the magazine. He is not a member of this forum and that's why I am forwarding the document below.

Matti


RAF serials with FinnAF Bristol Blenheim I & IV

Finnish Bristol Blenheim I (1st batch) construction numbers (extract from SIL issue 2/2019 page 2).

As the supplier in the case of the first 18 Blenheim airframes was directly manufacturer no RAF identities are naturally available. The original Bristol c/n followed tightly as planned the FinnAF BL-serial but not in all cases. Identities of BL-106 and BL-107 were swapped in a emergency in Filton due incorrect ferry crew name lists per aircraft distributed via diplomatic channels to overflown countries (Holland, Germany, Denmark and Sweden). It was easier to rename BL-106 as BL-107 and so avoid bureaucratic and diplomatic message problems.
The BL-119 was also an exception. It was held back in purpose and not accepted in its turn. BL-119 marked Blenheim was in the reality the last airframe BL-121 (c/n 8154) which was intended to be fitted with float undercarriage by Shorts Brothers. This airframe was to be left behind to wait for reworking by Shorts. This project however fell through and c/n 8154 was accepted as the last of the lot and got painted as BL-119.

c/n / FinnAF

8137 BL-104
8138 BL-105
8140 BL-106
8139 BL-107
8141 BL-108
8142 BL-109
8143 BL-110
8144 BL-111
8145 BL-112
8146 BL-113
8147 BL-114
8148 BL-115
8149 BL-116
8150 BL-117
8151 BL-118
8154 BL-119
8153 BL-120
8152 BL-121

For the assistance in this project our sincere thanks to Duncan Greenman and AIRchive.

Bristol Blenheim I - Winter War aid by Great Britain (extract from SIL issue 1/2016 page 2).

No.41 (Maintenance) Group HQ received 19 January 1940 instructions from Air Ministry to select and prepare 12 Blenheim I bombers complete with operational equipment for resale to the Bristol Co. for Finland. All of this lot were well used RAF aircraft, mainly used previously by RAF 21, 104 and 108 Squadrons and some training units. All RAF markings were replaced with Finnish equivalent ones. But at least BL-143 carried the 108 Sqn emblem on fin - still in June 1941.

RAF supplied Blenheim Ís to FinnAF during Winter War:

L1184 / BL-134
L1354 / BL-135
L1345 / BL-136
L1362 / BL-137
L1175 / BL-138
L1220 / BL-139
L1217 / BL-140
L1193 / BL-141
L1189 / BL-142
L1215 / BL-143
L1221 / BL-144
L1347 / BL-145

This short but extensively researched topic was made possible by the generous help from Phil Butler and Sqn Ldr Andrew Thomas. ID secured from A.M.Form 78 cards and corresponding FinnAF aircraft & engine files.

Bristol Blenheim and Modification 732 (extract from SIL issue 1/2015 page 2).

The Bristol Blenheim light bomber was developed without normal prototype and development work. The production was started prematurely and this meant constant flow of technical modifications supplied by Bristol Aircraft Co.
For various reasons not all of these modification orders forwarded by Bristol were not put into practice in Finland. This one described as Bristol Mod 732 "Improved Weather Proofing" dated 29 Dec 1939 applied only to the Bristol Blenheim Mk.IV́s supplied from RAF stocks to the FinnAF during Winter War 1939-40. Corresponding serials were BL-122 - 133.
These airframes received added sealing to the cockpit and gunners station window frames and metal joints. Externally this modification was easily recognized as the gluing on fabric and doping needed one inch overlapping. This resulted in notably "heavier" frames and smaller windows.
These particular airframes are listed in the table. All were produced by Rootes Securities Ltd and some where ex-Blenheim Ís converted into IV́ during manufacture.

L9025 / BL-122
L9027 / BL-123
L9028 / BL-124
L9195 / BL-125
L9196 / BL-126
L9197 / BL-127 Lost over North Sea with all hands (WO Gottschalk, Sgt Kallakari)
L9198 / BL-128
L9199 / BL-129
L9200 / BL-130
L9201 / BL-130
L9202 / BL-131
L9203 / BL-132

Archive information in UK researched by Phil Butler. Airframe ID secured from A.M.Form 78 cards and corresponding FinnAF aircraft & engine files.

Text collected & written by Pentti Manninen, editor of Suomen Ilmailuhistoriallinen Lehti (1994-2019). inscale72production@gmail.com

[Stig Jarlevik]

Thanks Matti

Hats off to Pentti
There was a rather interesting article in Air Britain's Aeromilitaria (winter 2008 issue) where we also got
the locally produced Blenheims as well.

Looking at the lists above, there is a slight mistake I believe since we have two BL-130 and thus missing
the BL-133, but that is easily corrected!

Another point (in the AB article) was that by 2008 the exact serial order of L1217 and L1221 was not known,
ie which became BL-140 and BL-144.
Has this been resolved, or has Pentti simply taken the "easy way out"?

Cheers
Stig

PS: Another mistake is that BL-123 was ex L9026 (not 9027)

[Matti Salonen]

Stig,

Pentti seems to have similar eye/finger cooperation as we slightly older men :-). He just sent me correction:

L9200 - BL-130
L9201 - BL-131
L9202 - BL-132
L9203 - BL-133

So far he has not said anything of BL-123.

Matti

[Stig Jarlevik]

Stig,

Pentti seems to have similar eye/finger cooperation as we slightly older men :-).
Matti

Never heard of that problem before Matti.....never heard of it.......:p:p

Cheers
Stig

[Matti Salonen]

Stig,

Pentti confirms that according to his research BL 123 is former L9027. Where you have found that it is L9026?

Matti

[Stig Jarlevik]

How odd Matti :confused:

The Air Britain article I just quoted says it was L9026
The Air Britain RAF serials L1000 - N9999 booklet has a full RAF history of L9027 (57/34 Sq and its loss
while also stating L9026 went to Finland

If you check this site here (RAF Commands) you can see what they say regarding L9027 which is
the same as the AB booklet says.
http://www.rafcommands.com/database/serials/details.php?uniq=L9027

Cheers
Stig

[AndyMa]

There is ample evidence to show that L9027 was still in RAF service long after Jan 40.
It served with 57 Sqn for much of 1940. To save downloading copious ORBs, see how many times it appears "on the roster" here:
https://57squadron.wordpress.com/blenheim-era-1938-1940/
Hopefully someone can provide a copy of the Form 78 for both L9026 and L9027 which will solve the matter once and for all.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Thanks Andy

Nice site!

Cheers
Stig

[Matti Salonen]

Stig and Andy,

In the Form 78 of L9027 there is the same number (S.3147) for the left engine as was in the BL-123. That made us to think that BL-123 was L9027. It would be nice to see, what the Form 78 of L9026 says.

Matti

[Martin Gleeson]

Matti,

The F.78 for L9026 records the engine numbers as 129971 and 129969. The second - and last - unit movement on page 1 was to 'Bristols/4 M.U.' on 2-1-1940. Page 2 notes it was "Sold to Finland 17.1.40".

I am puzzled by your reference to 'S.3147' as the left engine number because S.3147 is nowhere to be found on the F.78 for L9027. The two engine numbers are A130021 and A130011. After 57 Squadron L9027 was sent to the Middle East and later India, before being written off during August 1942.

It looks certain, based on the two F.78s, that L9026 was the aircraft which was sent to Finland.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Martin Gleeson.

[Matti Salonen]

Thanks Martin. I just forwarded this info to Pentti, who very probably will correct his data files.

Matti

[Matti Salonen]

Martin, Stig and others,

This is getting interesting. British aircraft are outside my limited expertise and Pentti would like to discuss this topic by himself, but unfortunately he is unable to register (when trying it he gets the message "Sorry, registration has been disabled by the administrator").
I'll try to explain our thoughts.
Bristol engines had in fact two serial numbers: Bristol number and Air Ministry number, which were successively arranged in the same row in the manufacturing plate. Bristol number was on the left and Air Ministry number on the right (example S.3147 A130021). In Finland we used always the OEM serial numbers, in this case Bristol number. The British Air Ministry numbering system had no importance in Finland and was not used. In Bristol number the letter “S.” means Shadow factory, but we don’t know its location.
So, when speaking about engine numbers we should know the correspondence between both numbers and the logic, how numbering system worked between the industry and Government.
Based on the data in F.78 for L9026 it seems plausible that BL-123 (possibly) was L9026, but to us the engine data is still obscure and we would like to improve our knowledge base. Bristol piston engine experts, please, open your information chests.

Matti

[newcomer]

G-AFCE and G-AFCF were first two Blenheims for kingdom of Yugoslavia. I am curious does anybody know the construction number for 20 Avro Blenheim Mk. I delivered to Yugoslavia in 1940?

Cheers

Newcomer

[AndyMa]

They were built by A V Roe, so I don't think they had construction numbers.

[newcomer]

Thanks Andy. It is interesting that Avro didn't assigned c/n for the aircraft from their production.

kind regards

Newcomer

[Stig Jarlevik]

Andy/Newcomer

I have a fairly complete Avro production list back home and will check when I get back.
(Right now I am stuck on Faero Islands thanks to SAS)

Andy
You can check with Malcolm F since we both had started on one. His was of course much better than mine,
so I adopted his... :)
Ask him and I am sure he will check these Blenheims.
From memory I do think Avro assigned c/n to their military production, at least into the early war period.
No idea if these Blenheims were included, but I think (hope) so.

Matti
Being no engine expert what so ever, I have, sorry to say, nothing further to contribute with on the Finnish
early deliveries.

Cheers
Stig

[Stig Jarlevik]

Hallo again

Andy was quite correct.
Avro never assigned any c/n to their Blenheim production
As far as I can judge Avro never assigned a single c/n to any aircraft built for RAF during the period 1919-1945.

Cheers
Stig

[newcomer]

Stig and Andy,

thank you both for your kind reply.

regards

Newcomer

[Alex Smart]

Hello Gentlemen,

Just wanted to return to my earlier posting about L6660 or L6670 in regards to the ebay item shown in "post 6" by "Snautzer" -
"Bristol Blenheim L6670 UQ-R Abschuss Afrikakorpspictures of crashed pplane now on ebay"

If one looks very closely to the phot of "UQ⊙R" then a partial serial number can just be made out. Nothing like "60" or "70" but more like "32".
Which brings me to a posting on the RAF Commands Forum. Post 65 by Don Clark, Re: Blenheim Anomalies.
Where it has been suggested that the serial of the Blenheim in the photo is L8523, with which I now would agree.

Alex