Article on the air war over Burma

[Christer Bergström]

Here's a very interesting and well-researched article on the air war over Burma Dec 1941 - April 1942:


http://www.warbirdforum.com/jaafhist.htm

Here's some more:

http://www.warbirdforum.com/jaafloss.htm

Combine that with this article by Håkan Gustavsson:

http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/japan_eto.htm

If there is one thing we learn from the history of the air war between the Japanese and the Allies, it is that you should never ever trust the claims made by either side in that war. Like on 23 Dec 1941 when the Japanese claimed 41 Allied fighters shot down while they in reality only shot down three; or on 25 Feb 1942, when the AVG ("Flying Tigers") claimed 22 Japanese planes shot down while in reality they only managed to shoot down a single Japanese aircraft.

(Which reminds me of a wondeful way of putting it which I read in Eric Hammel's "Carrier Clash": "U.S. TAsk Force 16 claimed seventy of the twenty-seven Vals as confirmed kills." :D - In reality, the Americans shot down 17, not 70, Aichi Val dive-bombers in that combat on 24 Aug 1942, but that was Guadalcanal.)

Enyoy the linked articles and buy Eric Hammel's book now! ;)

[Ruy Horta]

I've been itching to include an IJA and IJN AF forum for some time now.

Technically the Japanese could fall under the Luftwaffe and Axis section, but that somehow doesn't do justice to the subject.

If there is sufficient support, just let me know and the category will be set up ASAP.

[Ruy Horta]

On topic however I somehow didn't trust your figures:

Lundstrom, p. 147

VB = 34
VF = 16
VT = 2

Now 34 VB claims does not compute with your 70 Val claims. If you could point to the page where Hammel explains his figures (which I couldn't find at a quick glance).

Of course these figures do not include TF 16's AA claims, but 34:17 is very different to 70:17 in terms of overclaim ratios.

EDIT: never mind Christer, I found it Hammel, p.295, incl. TF AA claims. Some will have been pure AA kills, some shared. However the overlap in this carrier battle is clearly caused by having both Aircraft and AA involved in the same fight. Anything near the TF will automatically be claimed by both fighters and AA gunners.

[Christer Bergström]

VB, VF, VT, TF?

OMG. . . :p

Maybe some explanation is needed here. KWIM, MF? :D

"My figures"? Hm. . . didn't I put quotation marks around them and refer to a specific source? Sorry if I forgot to refer to the exact page. You could have asked for that instead.

Please tell me which Lundstrom you mean, and which book?

mvh from Christer

[Ruy Horta]

Be careful with the MF, that might easily be misunderstood... :o

The main answers:

The acronyms (correct spelling of plural?)

VF = carrier fighter
VB = carrier bomber
VT = carrier torpedo bomber
TF = Task Force

The figures
As the numbers in your post, regardless of source.

The Lundstrom
US Naval aviation historian John B. Lundstrom, in this case his second First Team book aptly named:

The First Team and the Guadalcanal Campaign
Naval Fighter Combat from August to November 1942

which was preceded by

The First Team
Pacific Naval Air Combat from Pearl Harbor to Midway

These are probably the best single source references on early USN (United States Navy) carrier actions, but without ignoring the Japanese side, on the contrary the IJN is covered as well as it can be.

Benchmark history books, IMHO. :)

Ah, and I did ask, but happened to find the page myself, hence the EDIT

But I'm already at risk of being tagged a negative know-it-all, so I'd better curb it for the time being!

[Christer Bergström]

Be careful with the MF, that might easily be misunderstood...

MF = my fault.

What did you think? :wink:

Compare with SOB = sorry, oh brother. :D

TAR, YK TCAK WPM. :cool:

Or like Johnny Rotten so poetically expressed it:

"Is this the IRA or is this the UDA or is this the MPLA? I thought it was the UK."

A big price to anyone who knows the meaning of all those abbreviations. Ruy can't participate, since he knows Portuguese.

AFAIK, this is OT.

[Håkan]

Hello Ruy,

I think it would be a nice idea about a Japanese category. There are some good messageboards at j-aircraft.com but to my opinion they tends to be more for the modelers (they do an incredible research on various paintschemes...).

Best wishes/Håkan

[Artist]

I know I'm new here but I would be very interested in a Japanese discusion forum.

[Jim Oxley]

A forum covering the Pacific would be well worth establishing IMHO. As Hakan mentioned J-Aircraft is more orientated towards modellers and aircraft colour research than a discussion on the Theatre per see.

And with the advent of two new books due out shortly... Chris Shores eagerly awaited Air War Burma, and China Area Operations by Takejiro Shiba.... interest is bound to pick up. :)

[Frank Olynyk]

Jim,
Do you have more information about the book by Takejiro Shiba? Publisher, publication date, language (English I would assume, but that is not a given). Does it cover 1931-1945, or only part of that?

The actual title of Chris Shores' book is Air War For Burma. The Grub Street website says it will be published in June; Amazon.co says March 31. I suspect the Grub Street date is more accurate.

Frank.

[Håkan]

Hello Frank,

After a short search on the net I found this:
"Air Operations in the China Area, July 1937 - August 1945
Takejiro ShibaA Japanese account of the forgotten air war in China

200pp., card covers, 150mm x 215mm, 295g.
Published by Burbank's Books, Blackwood, South Australia, 2000
USD $16.00, plus p&p International Airmail USD $7.50.

order in advance now (https://securewww.senet.com.au/clients/burbanksbooks/secure_order_form1.htm) - AVAILABLE SOON
This is an account of the Japanese air operations for the entire period of the "China Incident". Ranging from aerial triumphs over Nanking to the preparation of the massive Kamikaze operations to protect the homeland from invasion, a useful overview is presented for anyone studying modern Asian history. It was written for the USAFFE after the war had finished, and is based primarily on the experiences of Japanese officers involved in the air war. They were provided with some documents to work with, but much is drafted from memory."

at: http://users.senet.com.au/~mhyde/burbanks_books_ww2.htm

It feels very much like the old Japanese Monographs by Military History Section Headquarters, Army Forces Far East. (see: http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/historica.htm) i.e. this is not a new book.
Unfortunately you can't buy them from Historica Publications any longer (rumors says that the publishers has past away but unfortunately I haven't been able to verify this).

Best wishes/Håkan

[Ruy Horta]

First, I simply must have that book and the link is not working :mad:

Second, when I write I am itching to set up this new category, I really mean it :)

I hope it will grow like the other two main discussion forums.

Indeed most Japanese aircraft forums focus on camouflage and markings, and they are very good at that, but I agree there is a gap when it comes to the operational side.

Enjoy!

[Jim Oxley]

Frank,

This from Burbank Press:
Air Operations in the China Area, July 1937 - August 1945
Takejiro ShibaA Japanese account of the forgotten air war in China

200pp., card covers, 150mm x 215mm, 295g.
Published by Burbank's Books, Blackwood, South Australia, 2000

No other details other than it is due for release soon. Here's their link:
http://users.senet.com.au/~mhyde/burbanks_books_ww2.htm

[Alex Smart]

Hi,


Have seen the photo's on e-bay of the Jap Officers with German Officers, a Ju88 in the background of one photo does therefore mean (to me) that these photo's were taken in Europe during WW2 (?)

My questions are -

How did these jap Officers get to germany, but air or by sea.?

If by air, what a/c would they have used for the flight(s) and which rout would have been taken ?

If by sea, then how long would the journey have taken and would it have been by submarine or surface vessel ?

Looking forward to replies


Alex

[Jim Oxley]

Three trade delegations travelled to Germany during 1940 and 1941. The IJN sent one team in October 1940 and a second in March 1941. The IJA sent their team in June 1941. All three teams travelled via ship.Two more diplomatic delegations travelled to Germany in later years, both with IJNAF abd IJAAF representatives. The first went in December 1942 and the second in june 1944. Both travelled by I class Japanese submarines, the June group having to land in Norway and make their way to Germany overland. Both groups returned safely to Japan.

[Alex Smart]

Hello Jim,


Thank you for your reply.

I did not know that there were several visits but did think that they were by submarine . They took a chance coming by surface vessel in the beguining but in the early days the German submarines held sway over the oceans I suppose.

I had wondered if they might have flown in and also then which route would they have used? Do you think that flying in would have been at all possible ?
Alex

[JeffK]

HI Guys,

I thought that pre Barbarossa, that one group travelled across the USSR by train.

I know a later group went by Sub, as the Germans never controlled any Seas (except Waddenzee), travel ships would have neeb VERY dangerous.

Ruy,
This thread is a great idea, it means I get to post an article about a Wirraway shooting down a Zeke