Re: The Eagles Over Europe Project
 

Happily the TOCH tablets of stone class this as legitimate doubt rather than heresy.

Re: The Eagles Over Europe Project
 

It is very, very, sad, Nick, as I was in on the EoE Project from the start...

Re: The Eagles Over Europe Project
 

I have been asking for updates on the project about every six months for several years now because of a sincere interest in seeing the product with all its profiles and other documentation. Like several others, I have doubts about the project , having seen how the Eagles over the Pacific project of the 1990s has never been completed. I posted on this and another well known Luftwaffe forum. For some unknown reason, after 5 years ,I am no longer allowed over there but I will continue to make inquiries over here

Re: The Eagles Over Europe Project
 

Damn, Del, I was trying to keep you anonymous! :)


Oh well, I have suddenly become only a 'guest' on that other forum in the last couple of weeks also.


So folks, don't ask questions over there, or suggest it may never come to fruition, else you will also get the hammer.

Re: The Eagles Over Europe Project
 

Some of you may recall the flame war brouhaha that I got into here on TOCH several years ago with the supreme dictator and Fuehrer of that "other website" over its imposed dictates of exclusivity, i.e., no postings could be viewed unless the intruder first became a sworn, card-carrying member approved by the supreme Fuehrer and his clique. Since then, a half-dozen or more reputable, published researcher-historian-authors known to me have been booted off the site for daring to ask simple questions that would be more than welcome here on TOCH. And, as John V. and others have stated, that is very, very sad. There is a good side to this bad penny, however: those booted have returned to TOCH where they are most welcome.

L.

Re: The Eagles Over Europe Project
 

Dear all,

Most of you are acknowledgded "Professional" Historians and Researchers who have inspired the other 50-70% of the members during the years.

For those who have not yet Edited a book....privately or not...IT IS NOT EASY fellows....not easy....and we do have (the non-professional writers or researchers who do have other occupations as means of living) Families too and health problems and social problems as well - personnel, etc...

I am not familiar with this topic, but do give credit to the writers and time...How many years it took to a French Historian such as J-Y Lorant to research and publish his masterpiece about JG 300: 25 years....

I have been during the last 7+ years researching about the Brazilians in RAF Service...some 120+ biographies...more than 2,200 written pages and it is UNFINISHED...due to a lot of factors, other projects, personal life, problems (lot!), kid and Family to take care....but I do write a bit, every single day...a small step forward...

Let's hope that this Project will be finished...maybe the owner or idealist do need some help...Alone we do nothing...(maybe we do, but we do need help, this is what I meant).

Let's stop making critics but stimulate new historians like JEREMY who wrote a magnific piece of History onto this 14 April 1943...most of us, non-professional or acclaimed historians we do need support and help...and places like this Fórum to meet similars and SHARE and LEARN together.

I do remain, must humbly yours,
Adriano

Re: The Eagles Over Europe Project
 

LOL

Re: The Eagles Over Europe Project
 

If I may. I do remember the initial, well-composed (obviously), strongly worded, very precise initial post on the subject. It came as a surprise to me that well-known researchers, authors, or the like were hardly treated any better than the rest of us there. It was enjoyable read, but I never saw the response to it. There was no need to follow the thread any further.

Re: The Eagles Over Europe Project
 

Update...?

After all, this is me: "...we have the self-proclaimed orator John Vasco spreading negative and misleading nonsense in public on this board and to anyone else he meets on his travels..."

While in the same paragraph this appeared: "...Why on earth should we divulge what the timetable is, the structure of each volume, the page content, the photo content, the map content, the text content? It is no one's business..." So, to all of you on here who have helped over the years and decades, this translates as 'you are going to be told 'jack'.

So on the one hand I'm spreading negative and misleading nonsense (which is a 100% lie!), and on the other nothing is divulged and it's no one's business. Nobody knows anything (including me), but apparently I'm spreading negative and misleading nonsense because I express an opinion.



Oh, there's a lot more stuff, Robert, a lot more. But are we still in 'secret squirrel' territory?

Re: The Eagles Over Europe Project
 

I can understand not divulging information about contents in some rare cases, but not this one. They are looking for help, and at the same time, have revealed certain details. Without a mind reading ability, I can only assume. The spreading of false and misleading information on the internet has been troublesome for the company I work for as well. This can only be countered by giving those who are spreading false information factual responses. If they persist, this may have to be repeated, or ignored. A sad state of affairs.


Best,
Ed

Re: The Eagles Over Europe Project
 

ed,

An opinion is neither false nor misleading.

It is a reasonably-held view based on knowledge of certain circumstances. Nothing more, nothing less.

By the way, on a more general matter in my last post, I have never proclaimed myself as an orator. I'm lead guitar and backing vocals, actually.

Re: The Eagles Over Europe Project
 

Hi,

we are looking for German logbooks for the first volumes concerning air war over Poland in September 1939. Despite that we managed to collect more than 220 logbooks for this timeframe we still have some major gaps.
We are interested especially for following squadrons: 3./KG2, 7./KG3, 8./KG3, 2./ZG1, 3./ZG1, 7.(K)/LG1, 9.(K)/LG1, 9./KGzbV1, 10./KGzbV1, 11./KGzbV1, 5./KGzbV2, 7./KGzbV2, 8./KGzbV2, 3.(H)/12 as well as 1.(H)/11.
Perhaps somebody could help us?

Regards

Robert

Re: The Eagles Over Europe Project
 

So given the above, can you give us an update as to where Volume 1 is with regard to it finally seeing the light of day. And Robert, I would rather you did not reply at all than spout the banal crap and personal attacks I have suffered on the internet at the hands of Clint Mitchell. I believe you are better than that, Robert.

Re: The Eagles Over Europe Project
 

I'd like to know: who is "We"?
Since Larry isn't posting here since long, very long time, who is entitled to ask something in the name of a project which doesn't exist anymore?

Re: The Eagles Over Europe Project
 

Seeing as I have been named in person within this public topic which Vasco seems to be so desperate to prolong I feel it fair that I put the other side of the story across to the onlookers instead of the just the cheery picked excerpts presented by Vasco.

The following discussion took place on the "Luftwaffe Research Group" forum around mid-January of this year:

(MODERATOR'S NOTE: LRG extracts removed. 12 O'Clock High is not—as we have warned time and again—going to be used to continue fights that started elsewhere)

For the concerned onlookers the EOE project is very much alive and well. Progress towards publication is edging closer every single day regardless of what Vasco states. With a project of this scale it takes a tremendous amount of time and effort to iron out all of the details when our primary source material grows by the day. Everything is under control.

(MODERATOR'S NOTE: Material removed that is purely between two people and can therefore be dealt with in private messages or emails)

Re: The Eagles Over Europe Project
 

Ha, ha, ha, the typical biased nonsense from the "so called" TOCH moderators.... Pathetic...

Re: The Eagles Over Europe Project
 

Thank you for that most revealing response.

Re: The Eagles Over Europe Project
 

You are more than welcome Mr Beale. Your biased handling of this situation is also incredibly revealing... Although, I fully expected it to be fair... ;)

Re: The Eagles Over Europe Project
 

If "12 O'Clock High is not—as we have warned time and again—going to be used to continue fights that started elsewhere" then I'm not sure why this grievance - which "started elsewhere" - is being given oxygen in the first place....

Re: The Eagles Over Europe Project
 

I'm not looking to prolong anything, Mitchell, I'm simply looking to see an update on a Project I was involved in ever before you appeared on the scene of it...

Re: The Eagles Over Europe Project
 

An enquiry about the progress of a project that people here had been helping with (and are still being invited to) is fair and the same goes for doubts whether something of such scope can feasibly be completed or viably published.

Re: The Eagles Over Europe Project
 

You have been desperate and goading for a public "set to" for some time Vasco.

Your involvement in the project relating to your rather simple and uncomplicated pet, the Bf 110 has been just that, simple and uncomplicated... The vast majority of new revelations regarding the technical aspects of the Bf 110 and its camouflage and markings practices have been developed by others with a keener eye than yourself. While you sit on the sidelines absorbing the findings to the benefit of your own new publishing projects.

Re: The Eagles Over Europe Project
 

Same old, same old, Mitchell.

You've banned me and Del Davis from your forum.

You now come on here and attack me, because I have asked Robert for an update.

I don't have to do anything, you just paint yourself in a worse light every time you post in this thread. It's there for all to see. What's the matter with you?

Re: The Eagles Over Europe Project
 

You've been doing the same for years Vasco. I just wont take your shit. Anyone reading these pages and elsewhere can see you goading and trying to instigate a public "set to" over the last few weeks. You mentioned me in person so this is my response. Make of it what you will.

You were banned for continually trying to start unprovoked fights with a certain researcher and for your contempt towards a certain publishing project and those involved with it. End of...

Re: The Eagles Over Europe Project
 

QED

Re: The Eagles Over Europe Project
 

What about accusing me of being "rof120":

"If I didn't know better, I would say you are a certain someone in disguise who owns another forum. For someone relatively new to this forum, you do appear to set about castigating and criticising certain members on here..."

To which you add the following:

"Come on, rof120, tell us all who you REALLY are.

Help a Scouser out here. Lob me an insult or ten.

I'm waiting. Take me on.

Perhaps, just perhaps, you are a total arsehole for writing this: "...Mr. Johm Beaman, certainly you are closing this thread (EOE) as well..." You don't like me questioning things? You don't like me stating facts? You TELL a Mod what he should do? Are you serious?

Are you he who is stated to be in posts #5 & 6? Open up, rof. Enlighten us all. Or have you run for cover?"

You give it all the "big I am" and then put on the "poor John Vasco being abused" act...

Re: The Eagles Over Europe Project
 

I don't see your name in what you have quoted at all.
I frequent many forums.
As I said before, I don't have to do anything, you just paint yourself in a worse light every time you post in this thread. It's there for all to see. What's the matter with you?

Adriano: just a detail
 

Hello Adriano. I enjoy your posts but this is not the point now. It seems that (all?) languages which are more or less of Latin origin, i.e. Italian, French, Romanian, Spanish, Portugese, and also English to a large extent, and even German too (for a large part of Germany was Roman for a long time), have many words and also misunderstandings in common. The cause of the latter is the fact that at the origin there was a common Latin word but these languages underwent separate evolutions in the course of many centuries (at least 20).

This is why you used the word "edited" here ("edited a book"). It is not a crime of yours but it can be misleading to English-speaking people who are not aware of the many words which are common and different to English and other languages. I trust you meant people who PUBLISHED some books as publishers, i.e. those who check and scrutinize manuscripts, accept some of them for publication and then do all the necessary work (or toil) to actually find printers, have the text printed, sell and spread the copies (how many? 100 or rather 10,000?), pay the printers (no small amounts) and the author royalties etc.

Every time you have posted a message here at TOCH there is a button at the bottom with the word "Edit". This means that you can edit your text: not publish it as a book but make changes and corrections, modifications… This is what "edit" means. Publishing books is a publisher's job.

I am not trying to play schoolmaster and correct texts here, not at all, but this is one of the most frequent misunderstandings. Be very careful whenever an English word looks much the same as the corresponding word of your own language. In very numerous cases this is a trap and both words which look the same have different meanings. Some of the worst traps are "eventually", "actually" and also "gun", which most foreign people don't really understand.

Here are but a few examples - perhaps they can help a few people:

English: publisher(s)

French: éditeur or maison d'édition

Portugese: perhaps "editor" (?) - I don't know

German: Verleger or Verlagshaus ("publishing house")

Good luck for your work and your efforts.

Re: The Eagles Over Europe Project
 

You know exactly who you were alluding to.

Re: Adriano: just a detail
 

Good, because that would be completely off-topic.

Now, if anyone wants to offer a clear progress report on the Eagles Over Europe project then great. Otherwise, how about we let this thread drop?

Looking for documents (Polish Campaign)
 

Which Robert are you? The guy who posted many messages here on other subjects? (I don't mind at all) Are you a member of Larry's team at Boulder (Colorado)?

But never mind. This is the second enquiry of this very kind (documents, logbooks on the Polish Campaign) within a few months. It is quite possible that such documents were destroyed either 1939 or later, mainly in May 1945. I fear it will be very difficult to find any - possibly a few, discovered by chance in some old attic in a few hundred years…

I find it quite worrying that Robert still is asking for numerous documents - this time on no less than 15 Staffeln or squadrons - in order to complete one or two "Polish" volumes which should have been released several years ago (according to plan) and even about 8-10 years ago according to some information from Boulder. I feel we should give up any hope of ever seeing this "massive" series of big volumes materializing...

Quite a few years ago Larry Hickey himself announced here a least twice, in this very EOE-thread, that the first "Polish" volume was about to be released soon, in a few months, but nothing happened. I don't think at all that Larry intended to con us all and betray his audience but I think he was overwhelwed by the immense volume of work to be done (which probably was impossible to master for anybody in the world), by old age (now about 75 years) and above all by illness. Approx. 10 years ago cancer almost killed him. He survived all right, thanks God, but this did'nt make him any younger.

I don't know all secrets of Larry's but I think we should forget about the wonderful EOE project and become realists. Let us hope that at least what has been achieved up till now will be published, which is perfectly possible and would be profitable: hundreds (thousands?) of colour profiles, at least thousands of photographs, veterans' stories and reports, at least THE translation of the "massive" German Weiss manuscript (which certainly cost a great amount of money), perhaps various logbooks and what has been written by Larry and his team, if at all. This would be quite an achievement already (at least 4-5 large volumes) and make a lot of enthusiasts quite happy. Nobody would be even happier than myself.

Re: The Eagles Over Europe Project
 

Hi,

I just asked for little help and started a shitstorm. So please that this thread will be locked. It has no more sense to post anything about our project on TOCH.
@John I don`t see that you are interested in our progress so I don`t like to give you some feedback. Sorry but I don`t have time to have another dispute that I have too much or too less material etc.

Regards

Robert

Re: The Eagles Over Europe Project
 

Hello Robert,

Do grow up. I've seen similar behavior on another forum (not Luftwaffe-related) where I'm a moderator.

Further, speculation is speculation, nothing more. I would like to see the books released but I don't know as well. I can relate to the enthusiasm.

Best,
Ed

Re: The Eagles Over Europe Project
 

Robert,


How can you say that? You were with Larry on the visit to my house in Norwich in October 2006, and you know full well just how interested and involved I was in helping Larry in every way.


Quite frankly, I find it totally insulting that you post "...I don`t see that you are interested in our progress..." I was confident at one time many years ago that my shelves would be adorned with the EoE volumes.


Have you forgotten your visit?
https://i.imgur.com/m0SmAEF.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/0iaJzf0.jpg

Why do you want this thread to be locked? Why? Why is there no more sense in posting anything about the EoE Project on TOCH?

Re: The Eagles Over Europe Project
 

John,

did you get my permission to post this photo on public forum?
Please remove.

Robert

Re: The Eagles Over Europe Project
 

Since all concerned seem unwilling to give it a rest, consider this thread closed. If in future anyone from the EoE project wants to give a specific progress report, feel free to start a new one.