Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hi Ron

Thanks for the info - I don't seem to have record of this, so if you can find out any more I would be grateful. I will have a look at 414's ORB when I get the opportunity.

Cheers
Brian

Are we suggesting Sqn Ldr Smokey Stover DFC?

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

You win the prize for guessing. Seriously, "Smoke" was my father. Received the attached from Michal Rak re friendly fire dogfight. as I recall reading the ORB, it wasn't a jump and shoot deal. It was a real "battle". I have since found the ORB page about the incident , but it is hardly readable in my copy.


"And the friendly fire accident you mentioned is between F/O F.L.Vaupel and F/O Powell from 421 squadron( NOTEd as 412 in ORB) on 17 june 1943? Or some other? "
Michal Rak

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Ron have true, F/O Powell was from 412 squadron, my mistake, I exchanged numbers.
The incident was 25 miles south of the Scilly Isles. Two Mustangs were on Instep patrol and two Spitfires on defensive patrol and each mistook the other for enemy. F/O L.W.Powell, DFC was killed in Spitfire Vc AR522 and F/O F.L.Vaupel in Mustang I AP206.

Sources: Franks - FC Losses of WW2 1942-43 and Foreman - FC War Diaries, part 3.

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

One more bit of information that I recently uncovered. F/L Frederick Leroy Vaupel was killed in freindly fire on June 17/43. His younger brother P/O Raymond Ernest Vaupel was killed in Egypt flying with RAF 148 Sqdrn on July 31, 1942. Can't imagine what their Mom and Dad went through.

Puff

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hi Brian,

I have some other accidents for you, maybe you know it or they were there in thread because this is big thema now :)

At first some accidents of Czechoslovak pilots

On 3. (or 5.) June 1940 about 20.15 Lt. Josef Dekastello from GC I/8 made test flight in repaired Bloch MB.152 (No.567). He made simulated attack on AA battery wich protected his airport Claye-Souilly. Unfortunately battery started fire and hit the Bloch. Dekastello attempted make crash land but crashed and was killed.

On 9. June 1940 wes French AA fire shot down Bloch MB.152 from GC I/1 near St.Quentin. Bloch was set on fire and pilot Cpl. Cyril Nováček bailed out wounded on leg.

On 12. June 1940 was shot dow by French AA fire Bloch MB.152 from GC I/8 in which Cpl.Chef. Otto Špaček made cross country flight from Nancy to Brétigny.
On 12. March 1943 was crew P/O Ladislav Bobek, DFC - W/O Bohuslav Kovařík on night patrol over North Sea when they met some Halifax which started fire and hit their Beaufighter Mk.VIF (V8591). Bobek made crash landing on Coltishal in 23:00 and was lightly wounded.

On 27. June 1944 was crew F/Lt Josef Čapka, DFM – F/LT G.T.Williams,DFM from 68 squadron in Beaufighter Mk.VIF KV974(WM-R) on day training flight. They encoutered US Liberator and Čapka made formation with him but rear gunner started fire and set Beaufighter on fire. Čapka made carash landing and was badly hurt (he lost left eye). Williams bailed out before crash.

And one from Balkan -

On 17. October 1944 was shot down Fiesler Fi 167 of NOVJ (People's Liberation Army - Yugoslav Partisans) air force by four RAF fighters, probably Mustangs. In this plane was General Ćetković, commanding Officre of VIII. Corps NOVJ, General was killed, other three members survived crash landing.

And I read somewhere that there were some dog fights between Americans and Soviet fighters over Yugoslavia but I do not know details.

Maybe this help
Best wishes
Michal

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Thaks a million, Michal, most are 'new' to me.

Don't worry about the US/Soviet clashes - I have details.

Thanks also, Puff.

Cheers
Brian

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

BRIAN, YOUR QUEST FOR FRIENDLY FIRE DETAILS RE THE 414 AND 412 SQUADRONS ARE FULLY DETAILED IN THE ATTACHED ARTICLE. THERE IS A STORY CONTAINED IN THE SAME ARTICLE ABOUT 23 DAKOTAS DOWNED BY NAVAL GUNFIRE IN SICILY

YOU WILL HAVE A LOT FOR AT LEAST TWO BOOKS.

REGARDS,


RON
http://www.legionmagazine.com/featur...tory/07-11.asp

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hello:

I was lead to this forum by an internet search of s/n NS635, which I believe is the serial number of the DH Mosquito Mk XVI my grandfather flew in WWII (653rd Bombardment Squadron, 25th Bomb Group, 8th Air Force at Watton).

I only have his name (Capt. Robert L. Lee), squadron info and a few photos to go on.

A list of USAAF Overseas Accident Reports I came across suggests on 16 Sept 1944 he was involved in a landing crash in aircraft NS635 at Watton, although a post earlier in this thread suggests on 24 March 1945 the same aircraft fell victim to friendly fire, while being flown by a different pilot.
http://www.aviationarcheology.org/sr...y/Sep1944O.htm
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...t=2670&page=35

Is it possible that these are the same aircraft?

I have several photos of my grandfather standing next to mossies, though only one of these I'm certain is his (he's standing near the nose of the aircraft). Please see attached photo -- the nose art says "Patches". Another photo had him standing near the tail, but the s/n is -632, not -635...

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t...sc009cf8a9.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t...sc009ce309.jpg


Any input or help would be greatly appreciated. I would really like to determine the correct serial number of the plane he flew.

Many thanks.

Friendly Fire WWII, 1st Jan.
 

Hi All,
Regarding the FF which took place on the 1st Jan at Y-29 involving the 328FS,352FG pilot.
Not sure if this has already been mentioned, I know Troy White gave some info on this matter, but not sure wether the aircraft shot down was ID`d. But just in case here is an ID for said aircraft. The aircraft turned out to be an RAF Hawker Typhoon of 183Sq.from Gilze-Rijen on their way to their new base at Chievres. The unfortunate pilot to lose his life in the shot down Typhoon was F/Lt. Don Webber.

Hope this is of use.
Cheers!
P.S When do you hope to release the book?. I guess you can't really hope to get info on ALL FF actions of WW2..but you could do follow up books when yuou find further incidents.

NS635 ?
 

I read that NS635 was lost on the 4th April 1945.

Macr 13948.

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

I believe that the Air Force Command and Staff School at Maxwell AFB (Alabama) published a short survey of friendly fire incidents from WW II onward. Sorry I do not have the actual title.

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Dear Brian,

Just returned from Maxwell AFB searching the USAAF accident reports for 416 NFS Beau and Mossie crashes. By accident I found a report on C-46D 4477654 that was shot down by UK ground defenses near the English coast 4 March 1945 killing all on board. It says the aircraft crashed into the channel in the Humber area. Do you want this report for your project?

Norman Malayney
nmalayneyATyahoo.com

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hi Norman

That would be great - many thanks. I do have the basics relating to this incident but not much more.

Best to you
Brian

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Dear Brian,

I misplaced your home address. Please e-mail this so I may mail the C-46 accident report.

Norman Malayney
nmalayneyATyahoo.com

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

As promised, data from:
Warner, Graham. Bristol Blenheim: A Complete History. 2nd Edition. (Manchester, U.K.: Crecy Publishing, 2005): ...

3 September 1939
Three Blenheims (601 Squadron) drew gunfire from British anti-aircraft batteries near Biggin Hill, U.K. Fortunately all shots missed. (p.138)

3 January 1940
Blenheim L1410 (18 Squadron). Attacked by RAF Hurricane but escaped. Later shot down by German fighter on same day. (p.167).

15 March 1940
Blenheim L9249 (57 Squadron). Believed to be shot down by anti-aircraft fire from Allied troops and crashed near Metz, France. Two crewmen killed and one injured. (p.167).

12 May 1940
Blenheim N6169 (59 Squadron). Damaged by anti-aircraft fire from Belgian troops near Renaix, France. One crewman wounded. (p.196).

15 May 1940
Blenheim L9399 (53 Squadron). Shot down by RAF Hurricane and crashed near Tournai, France. Three crewmen killed. (p.214)

16 May 1940
Blenheim N6168 (59 Squadron). Damaged in attack by RAF Hurricane and crashed at Vitry, France. Crew survived. (p.214).

16 May 1940
Blenheim L4852 (53 Squadron). Damaged in attack by RAF Hurricane and then shot down by anti-aircraft fire from Allied troops during landing approach. Crashed at Glisy, France. Crew injured. (p.205,214).

18 May 1940
Blenheim L9395 (235 Squadron). Believed to be shot down by RAF Hurricane and crashed into sea off Ostend, Belgium. Three crewmen killed. (p.232).

21 May 1940
Blenheim L9185 (18 Squadron). Shot down by RAF Spitfire and crash-landed near Boulogne, France. Crew injured. (p.226).

21 May 1940
Blenheim L9325 (18 Squadron). Shot down by RAF Hurricane and crashed near Arras, France. Three crewmen killed. (p.226).

22 May 1940
Blenheim L9266 (59 Squadron). Shot down by RAF Spitfire and crashed near Fricourt, France. Three crewmen killed. (p.226).

9 August 1940
Blenheim L8679 (600 Squadron). Shot down by British anti-aircraft fire and crashed near Westgate, U.K. Crew survived. (p.270).

15 August 1940
Blenheim L6610 (604 Squadron). Damaged in attack by RAF Spitfire and crash-landed at Middle Wallop, U.K. Crew injured. (p.270).

20 August 1940
Blenheim Z5729 (236 Squadron). Damaged by British anti-aircraft fire near Pembroke Dock, U.K. Made forced landing at base. Crew survived. (p.268).

24 August 1940
Blenheim T1804 (235 Squadron). Shot down by RAF Hurricane and crashed into Bracklesham Bay, U.K. Two crewmen killed. (p.268).

24 August 1940
Blenheim Z5736 (235 Squadron). Damaged in attack by RAF Hurricane over Bracklesham Bay, U.K. Crash-landed at base. Crew survived. (p.268).

24 August 1940
Blenheim N3531 (235 Squadron). Damaged in attack by RAF Hurricane over Bracklesham Bay, U.K. Crash-landed near Thorney Island. Crew survived. (p.268).

3 September 1940
Blenheim L1512 (25 Squadron). Shot down by RAF Hurricane and crashed near North Weald, U.K. Pilot killed and observer bailed out safely. (p.270).

3 September 1940
Blenheim L8656 (25 Squadron). Damaged in attack by RAF Hurricane and made forced landing near Hatfield Heath, U.K. Crew survived. (p.270).

3 September 1940
Blenheim L1409 (25 Squadron). Damaged in attack by RAF Hurricane and made forced landing near North Weald, U.K. Crew survived. (p.270).

28 September 1940
Blenheim L1371 (29 Squadron). Damaged by British anti-aircraft fire and made forced landing at Digby, U.K. Crew survived. (p.271).

2 October 1940
Blenheim R3629 (254 Squadron). Damaged in attack by RAF Hurricane over English Channel and crash-landed at Montrose, U.K. Crew survived. (p.289).

13 October 1940
Blenheim L6637 (29 Squadron). Shot down by RAF Hurricane and crashed into sea off Point of Ayr, U.K. Three crewmen killed. (p.288).

13 October 1940
Blenheim K7135 (29 Squadron). Damaged in attack by RAF Hurricane near Liverpool, U.K. Crew survived. (p.288).

26 October 1940
Blenheim T2057 (14 Squadron). Shot down by RAF Gladiator and crashed near Port Sudan, East Africa. Crew injured. (p.427).

27 October 1940
Blenheim T2068 (113 Squadron). Navigational error on return flight from air strike in Libya and also came under fire from Allied anti-aircraft guns. Crew bailed out near Amriya, Iraq. (p.425).

10 November 1940
Following a raid on Kalpaki, RHAF (Royal Hellenic Air Force) Blenheims were fired at by their own airfield defenses at Larissa, Greece. The hot reception caused a detour to Medini, where the Blenheims were again attacked by friendly anti-aircraft fire. They orbited the airstrip until empty fuel tanks forced a landing. One Blenheim crashed and the Greek pilot broke his back. (p.429).

24 November 1940
Blenheim Z5734 (272 Squadron). Attacked by FAA Fulmar over British convoy, stalled in low-altitude turn and crashed into sea off U.K. Three crewmen killed. (p.289).

9 December 1940
Blenheim N3617 (114 Squadron). Damaged by anti-aircraft fire from Allied convoy off Yarmouth and crashed at Newport, U.K. Three crewmen killed. (p.292).

5 January 1941
Blenheim T2134 (139 Squadron). Damaged by British anti-aircraft fire near Lowestoft, U.K. Crew survived. (p.303).

31 January 1941
Blenheim R3903 (139 Squadron). Damaged by British anti-aircraft fire near Southwold, U.K. Crew survived. (p.303).

13 February 1941
Blenheim R3679 (53 Squadron). Damaged in attack by RAF Spitfire and made forced landing at Bircham-Newton, U.K. Crew survived. (p.307).

1 April 1941
Blenheim T2398 (53 Squadron). Damaged in attack by RAF Hurricane and made forced landing at base in U.K. Crew survived. (p.308).

6 April 1941
Blenheim ----- (11 Grupa) of the Jugoslovensko Kraljevsko Ratno Vazduhoplovsto (Royal Yugoslav Air Force). During a bombing raid to Romania, this aircraft was shot down by a JKRV Messerchmitt 109. Three crewmen were killed. (p.441).

14 April 1941
Blenheim T2177 (113 Squadron). Damaged by anti-aircraft fire from British Commonwealth troops near Gravena, Greece. Crew survived. The pilot was sent to deliver unfused bombs for Kiwi sappers who had no explosives to demolish a bridge assigned to them. The Blenheim circled the drop zone with wheels down and popped recognition flares, with no effect on the hostile replies of the New Zealanders. (p.446,453).

26 April 1941
Blenheim fighters from 30 and 203 Squadrons were tasked as top cover for a British convoy off Suda Bay, Crete. Evidently the squadron leaders were not informed of these duplicate assignments and did not expect a meeting over the ships. The two units intercepted each other in confusion and attacked until some Ju 88 bombers appeared near the melee. The Royal Navy opened fire on all of the planes indiscriminately. (p.448).

27 April 1941
Blenheim K7177 (30 Squadron). Damaged by gunfire from British warship and crash-landed at Maleme, Crete. Crew survived. (p.449,453).

28 April 1941
Blenheim L9044 (203 Squadron). Shot down by gunfire from British warship and ditched in sea off Crete. Crew rescued. The Blenheims again circuited the area with undercarriage lowered and flashed the correct identification signals, which did not persuade the navy gunners to stop shooting at them. (p.449,453).

30 April 1941
Blenheim L9215 (203 Squadron). Damaged in attack by FAA Fulmar off Crete. The crew survived, and this time Verey pistol cartridges and flashing Aldis lamps caused the navy fighters to break off. (p.453).

9 May 1941
Blenheim V6379 (18 Squadron). Shot down by gunfire from British warship and crashed into sea off U.K. Three crewmen killed. (p.343).

23 May 1941
Attempts were made to reinforce the island fortress of Crete with RAF Hurricanes staged from the Middle East. In this case a flight of six were led by a Blenheim, and these were dispersed by intense anti-aircraft fire from British navy warships. Five Hurricanes returned to Egypt. The Blenheim and remaining Hurricane landed at Heraklion though the latter was destroyed 30 minutes later. (p.451).

27 May 1941
Blenheim V6460 (82 Squadron). Destroyed by own bomb blast during anti-shipping strike. Crashed into sea off Malta. Two crewmen killed and one taken prisoner. (p.518).

27 May 1941
Blenheim V6427 (82 Squadron). Destroyed by own bomb blast during anti-shipping strike. Crashed into sea off Malta. Three crewmen killed. (p.518).

8 June 1941
Blenheim V5680 (139 Squadron). Destroyed by flying debris from target vessel during anti-shipping strike. Crashed into sea off Malta. Three crewmen killed. (p.518).

28 June 1941
Blenheim V5755 (75 Wing). Shot down by British anti-aircraft fire and crashed near Lydd, U.K. Four crewmen killed. (p.352).

2 July 1941
During armed reconnaissance for a suspected enemy convoy, a Blenheim crew of 45 Squadron located several warships off Tyre, Palestine. The pilot radioed their position and attacked through heavy anti-aircraft fire. It's not clear if any damage was caused but the target ships belonged to the British Navy. (p.464).

9 August 1941
Blenheim V5990 (113 Squadron). Shot down by RAF night-fighter and crashed into sea off Mersa Matruh, Egypt. Two crewmen killed and one injured. (p.485).

30 August 1941
Blenheim Z7641 (107 Squadron). Damaged by bomb blasts during raid on Licata, Sicily. Crash-landed on Malta. Crew injured. (p.519).

20 September 1941
Blenheim R3843 (18 Squadron). Flew into bomb bursts during anti-shipping strike. Crashed into sea off Zandvoort, Holland with three crewmen killed. The teenage Canadian pilot had dropped an unusual load on St. Omer airfield a month earlier; a wooden box that contained a spare artificial leg for a British POW - Wing Commander Douglas Bader. (p.366,372).

20 September 1941
Blenheim V6422 (226 Squadron). Destroyed by own bomb blast during anti-shipping strike. Crashed into sea off Amsterdam, Holland. Three crewmen killed. (p.372).

22 October 1941
Blenheim Z7898 (18 Squadron). Destroyed by blast from bombs dropped by leading aircraft and crashed near Homs, Syria. Three crewmen killed. (p.520).

15 November 1941
Blenheim T2324 (54 Operational Training Unit). Shot down by RAF Spitfire and crashed near Wetherby, U.K. Pilot bailed out safely but observer was killed. (p.378).

28 November 1941
Blenheim Z7703 (11 Squadron). Shot down by anti-aircraft fire from British Commonwealth troops and crashed near the Tobruk-Bardia road, Egypt. Three crewmen killed. (p.486).

30 November 1941
Blenheim Z7589 (Western Desert Command Flight). Shot down by anti-aircraft fire from British Commonwealth troops and crashed near Gialo Oasis, Sudan. Three crewmen and one army passenger killed. (p.494).

28 December 1941
Blenheim L1243 (62 Squadron). Shot down by anti-aircraft fire from British Commonwealth troops and crashed near Port Swettenham, Malaya. Two crewmen killed and one injured. (p.552,556).

28 December 1941
Blenheim ----- (62 Squadron). Damaged by anti-aircraft fire from British Commonwealth troops near Port Swettenham, Malaya. Crew survived. (p.552).

29 January 1942
Blenheim Z7271 (21 Squadron). Destroyed by blast from bombs dropped by leading aircraft and crashed near Tripoli, Lebanon. Two crewmen killed and one injured. (p.521).

21 February 1942
Retreating columns of troops with some 300 vehicles from the British 17th Division were bombed and strafed by RAF Blenheims near Mokpalin, Burma. The previous day, British Commonwealth troops were attacked by RAF aircraft during a break-out attempt by a battalion surrounded by Japanese troops. Complaints from the army led to a formal investigation by Air Vice Marshall Donald Stevenson, who at first seemed in denial but later relented. (p.563-564).

30 March 1942
Blenheim Z7627 (14 Squadron). Shot down by RAF Hurricane and crashed into sea off El Alamein, Egypt. Three crewmen killed. (p.490).

27 April 1942
Blenheim T2430 (114 Squadron). Damaged by British anti-aircraft fire near Lowestoft. Crash-landed at Pulham, U.K. Crew injured. (p.391).

27 May 1942
Blenheim V5568 (1401 Meteorological Flight). Shot down by RAF Whirlwind and crashed into sea off U.K. Three crewmen killed. (p.396).

19 August 1942
Blenheim Z6089 (13 Squadron). Damaged by anti-aircraft fire from British warship off Dieppe, France. Crash-landed at Thruxton, U.K. Crew survived. (p.392).

19 August 1942
Blenheim V5626 (614 Squadron). Damaged by anti-aircraft fire from British warship off Dieppe, France. Crash-landed at Friston, U.K. Two crewmen killed and one wounded. (p.392).

29 December 1942
Blenheim BA784 (18 Squadron). Shot down by British anti-aircraft fire and crashed at Bangouch, North Africa. Two crewmen injured and one killed. (p.534).

19 March 1943
Blenheim BA655 (42 Squadron). Damaged by blast from own bombs during air strike and crashed on landing at Rajyeswarpur, India. Crew injured. (p.583).

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

A few others:


10 March 1941
Halifax L9489 (35 Squadron). Shot down by RAF night-fighter on return from six-plane raid to Le Havre, France.

15 June 1941
Two RAF Hurricanes (208 Squadron) were shot down by Allied anti-aircraft fire near their base at Aqir, Palestine. Both pilots were killed.

17 June 1941
Beaufort (217 Squadron) was shot down by RAF Hurricanes of 504 Squadron.

September 1942
Three Hurricanes were downed by friendly gunfire during the battle for Convoy PQ-18.

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Dear Brian,

Here are the details on the C-46 accident report.

C-46D serial 4477654 4 March 1945, 2005 hours
IX TCC, 313 TC, 49th Troop Carrier

Killed in Action:
Pilot, James H. Green 0-807727 2n Lt. ,
Co-pilot, James A. Fenley 0-783942 2nd Lt.,
Engineer, Felix E. Banaszek, 36607479 Sgt. ,
Radio operator, Albert (NMI) Cory 32423259

Of his total flying time of 901:30 hours the pilot had 87 hours in the C-46.

Weather at time of accident Vis. 1-3 miles cloud 7/10 to 8/10 at 1,000 feet, 10/10 at 3,000 feet. Wind north at 8 to 13 mph.
Aircraft was cleared from station 484 to strip B-54 and return, contact glider tow to continent, to tow glider to B-54 and return to Station 484

Pilot became lost above clouds and was shot down by English Coastal defense guns n Humber area.

15 April 1945, Circmstances Involving Loss of C-46D aircraft No. 44-77654 US Army.

Aircraft C-46-D, AAF #44-77654, called letter "Persist 'U' Uncle" with James H. Green, 2nd Lt. Air Corps, 0-807727, as pilot; James A. Fenley, 2nd Lt. Air Corps, 0-783942, as co-pilot; Sgt. Felix E. Banaszek, 36607479, as crew chief; and S/Sgt albert (NMI) Cory, 32423259, as radio operator, departed Station 484 Folkingham, England at 1030 hours, 4 March 1945, towing a loaded CG-13A glider, with B-54, Achiet, France as its destination.

Unfavorable weather was encountered en route but the airplane and glider made a successful landing at B-54. The airplane and crew departed B-54, Achiet, France, at 1550 hours, 4 March 1945, without the glider in tow, for the purpose of returning to their proper station, Station 484, Folkingham, England. At 1925 hours, the Base Communciations Section at Folkingham received a message from the pilot reading "we are lost". The airplane circled Hawkinge, Lympne and Detling airfields southeast of London, England at approximately 10,000 feet in daylight. Shortly before being shot down at 2005 hours, 4 March 1945, by allied anti-aircraft gound fire one mile south of Orfordness, England, PERSISt 'U' (Uncle) called DARKIE and a Royal Observer Corps station picked it up, but ROC could not contact the airplane. Manston heard him call at 1754 hours and at 2000 hours he called Woodbridge for a QDM to Manston. Woodbridge could not contact him and at 2005 hours the aircraft was shot down.

Four objects were seen to fall from the airplane, two with open parchutes. At time of shooting, Radar fixed aircraft at 10,000 feet altitude but ROC tracked the plane at 8,000 feet altitude. Air/Sea Rescue went out at the time the airplane was shot down but the search met with no success as far as has been ascertained to date. At the time the aircraft is believed to have been shot down, an enemy air raid was taking place. The airplane was shot down off the eastern coast of England, one mile south of Orfordness, in the Humber Diver Area, a restricted area over the English Channel which was being crossed by enemy aircraft in bombing raids over England. The weather at the time was insturment weather as follows: visibility 1-3 miles; clouds 7 to 8/10 at 1,000 feet, 10/10 at 3,000 feet; wind north at 8 to 13 miles per hour.

William G. Oliver, Jr.
Major, Air Corp.
Station Accident Officer.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pilot could not ascertain his geographical position and evidently could not maintain radio contact with ground stations. He ultimately flew off course over a restricted area where he was fired upon by anti-aircraft guns.
Responsibliity: Pilot error, poor judgement in flying above overcast without navigator, without being capable of utilizing other navigational aids satisfactorily. Pilot erred also in not landing at one A/D which he circled and called in an attempt to orientate himself; presumbably not receiving this station, he flew on and eventually climbed on top of overcast where he became completely lost.

Yours very truly,
Norman Malayney

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hi Norman

Many thanks - I have sent a PM

Hi Six Nifty

Also many thanks - I have printed your list and will check against my records. I have the majority of those listed, but you never know ....!

Trust you're keeping well, gentlemen

Cheers
Brian

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Brian,

A post by me on rafcommands.com has so far been unanswered, but on 7 Oct 1944 Mosquito MM512 of RCAF 409 Squadron is said to have been shot down by Allied AA fire in the Ostend, Belgium area. (see e.g. Shores & Thomas, 2 TAF, Vol. 2).
Crew P/O Norman Joss and P/O Peter Lailey commemorated at Runnymede.

No further details to either confirm or deny above incident?

Regards,

Leendert

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hi Leendert

Apologies. I haven't been on RAF Commands for a few days.

Yes, I have this recorded but have no additional details as yet. I am still working on the first volume of 'Blue on Blue' !!

Cheers
Brian

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Does Hugh Halliday or Larry Milberry post messages over there? If it's about the RCAF they might know more or direct you to someone else.

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hello, from Six Nifty .50s post on the previous page there is the followng item:-

22 May 1940
Blenheim L9266 (59 Squadron). Shot down by RAF Spitfire and crashed near Fricourt, France. Three crewmen killed. (p.226). Warner, Graham. Bristol Blenheim: A Complete History. 2nd Edition.

Having a house just down the road I have a particular interest in this crash. I was aware that there is no corresponding German fighter claim but the concept of friendly fire is new to me. Does anyone know anything more on this?

Best regards, David D

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hello Brian,

Regarding 'aircraft collisions with (own) barrage balloons':

1. Hampden P1336, 106 Sqdn., 24/05/1940: cross-country flight, UK
Collided with a balloon cable in Coventry. 3 KIA

I don't know of this accident can be linked with:
Aircraftman 1st Class Cyril G. Shepperd, RAF 340015, 911 Balloon, age unknown, 24/05/1940, Sheffield (Burngreave) Cemetery, UK

2. Hampden P1340, KM-?, 44 Sqdn.,03-04/06/1940: Emmerich, Germany
Crashed into the River Orwell near Harwich, Essex, after colliding with a barrage balloon cable. 2 MIA

3. Whitley P5044, 77 Sqdn - collided with Balloon cables early one morning 15th August 1940 at about 3.30 am to 3.34 am (03.30 hrs RAF - 03.34 hrs A.A. Intell. Reports and Observer Posts reported time). See http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/u.../u933805.shtml

4. Something completely else: I didn't see any references to RAF and USAAF bombings by mistake of cities (Nijmegen, Enschede, Den Haag (The Hague)). Do you need information on those bombings?

Regards,

Bart
--------
RAF Losses 10/05/1940-30/06/1940

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hi Bart

Thanks - yes, I am recording such incidents and do have those you list. However, I would be grateful for whatever you have regarding bombing 'errors' and suchlike.

Many thanks in advance
Brian

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hi Brian,

'just in case you haven't seen it; beginning on page 82 of RAFHS Journal No. 34, W/C Geoff Jefford provides an overview of 20th Century Fratricide incidents with particular emphasis on the RAF. Included at the end of the presentation are (by no means exhaustive) tables that identify RAF aircraft involved in various incidents during WWII - air-to-air, ground-to-air, ground-to-air (barrage balloons), air-to-ground (by heavy bombing), US ship fratricide casualties.

This Journal (and others) is available for download in PDF format at the RAFM website: http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/london/r...h/journals.cfm


Cheers

Rod

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Thanks a million, Rod, I hadn't seen that article - most interesting. I do however have most of the incidents shown, but a few are new to me. Great stuff! One I didn't know about was the British Airways Oxford hitting a balloon cable in November 1939. Am endeavouring to obtain some details.

Thanks again

PS: I note you are in NZ - pity your cricket team is about to get turned over by England!

Brian

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hi Brian,

LOL, fully with the benefit of hindsight, yes, it was a pity!

'wonder what the headlines in the English weekend papers will be...

Cheers

Rod

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hello Brian,

As promised some info on Allied bombings on Dutch cities:

Nijmegen (near the border with Germany)

In an air attack on 22/02/1944 (ca. 13.30 hrs local time) by the 8th Air Force - supposed to hit a German town - at least 771 Dutch civilians lost their lives. A bilangual victims list (Dutch/English can be found on the site www.noviomagus.nl

Enschede (near the border with Germany)

In heavy allied air attacks on 10/10/1943, 22/02/1944 and 22/03/1945 the inner city of Enschede was heavily damaged. More than 250 civilians lost their lives. (source: Overijssel Province - history of Enschede)

Enschede was an important industrial town and industrial buildings were throughout the war attacked on purpose - but at least two of these bombardments (the last two) were a mistake; the bombs were supposed to hit a target in Germany.

Further Dutch cities attacked on the 22/02/1944 were Arnhem and Deventer.

The book 'De fatale aanval' (the fatal attack) by Alfons E. Brinkuis can be read on the site of Nijmegen City. It's in Dutch, but with a wee bit of effort even Englishmen should be able to distill the American units responsible for these attacks out of it.

I'll report later on an air attack on The Hague.

Regards,

Bart

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

This is I guess the page were the interesting part starts.

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

A summary of 'The fatal attack'

2nd Division of 8th Air Force was to attack as primary target Gotha (Gothaer Waggon Fabrik AG - Me 110 assembly line; GY 4765 A, Mean Point of Impact: 029942/5. Secondary target factories and airfield near Eschwege, Germany.

Outward bound the 74 B24's of 2nd Division 8th Air Force (of the 252 bombers originally planned to be involved in this attack!) are recalled. The formation breaks up, as crews decide to attack targets of 'opportunity', thinking they're already above Germany.

on this page you can find thumbnails of all pages of the mentioned book, with many photos and maps.

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hello friends,

01.05.1940: 803 sqdn Skua (from carrier HMS Glorious) shot down by AA from own ships in error off Namsos, GW Sub Lt Brokensha and PO SE Andrews rescued by destroyer HMS Nubian.

Can you give more infromation about this loss? Time, position, which ship shot them down?

Thank you

Darius

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Apologies if this has already been posted:

Flying Desert Rat: The Combat Career of Squadron Leader Bert Houle

Page 3 (of 9)

http://www.wlu.ca/lcmsds/cmh/back%20...rt%20Houle.pdf

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Brian,

I am not sure if your are interested in Navy freindly fires, but I found this on the <combindedfleet.com> web site.

24 October 1944:
The convoy is attacked by two American wolf packs. The submarines’ attacks scatter the convoy. Each Maru is attacked repeatedly, from both sides. During the wolfpacks’ attacks on the convoy, LtCdr George H. Brown’s SNOOK (SS-279) sinks the ARISAN MARU. Sadly, she is carrying 1,781 American PoWs who are lost along with 204 members of the ships’ crew and 125 other Japanese passengers. Only nine PoWs survive

The above informtion was found in the section on Seaplane Tender ships. Thre are many such listing on the web site of US submarines sinking Japanes shpping carrying Allied POWs.

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Dear Brian,

Same web site as above:

12 September 1944:
S China Sea. E of Hainan, China. The HIRADO is torpedoed by Cdr Thomas B. Oakey’s USS GROWLER (SS-215) and sinks at 17-54N, 114-59E. Rear Admiral Kajioka goes down with the ship. He is promoted Vice Admiral, posthumously.

At 0500, LtCdr (later Vice Admiral) Eli T. Reich in the USS SEALION (SS-315) torpedoes the RAKUYO MARU, but she stays afloat for another 13 hours, sinking at 1820 that evening. She is carrying 1,318 Allied POWs, of whom 1,051 are lost. Reich also sinks the NANKAI MARU

Norman Malayney

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Thanks guys for the latest.

Hi Norman, I have to admit that Navy friendly fires, although interesting, do not fit my remit. Thanks all the same.

Cheers
Brian

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Dear Brian,

I do not know if you intend to cover the Vietnam war, but I found this interesting incident by accident at <taskforceomegainc.org/b410.html>

It states that on 25 Sept 1966:
"According to two gunship crewmen, the flight was flying from the south toward the north and the demilitarized zone (DMZ) when Capt. Ducat radioed for a change in the order of aircraft in the flight in preparation to pick up other wounded Marines. Phil Ducat was in the process moving his aircraft into the lead when it was struck in the pilot’s compartment by an artillery shell from Camp Carroll’s artillery battery.
The two escort gunships were approximately 75 yards in trail behind the two medevac aircraft when it exploded. The crews reported they watched in horror as the medevac helicopter instantaneously turned into a fireball with the main “rotor head going one way and the aircraft itself going straight down on fire like a flare.” "

They provide full particulars on the KIA crew members.

Norman Malayney

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hi, I'm new on here although I have been on the RAFCommands site.

My wife and I were at the BOB memorial Service at Capel le Ferne last week representing the family of a former 222 sqn. BOB pilot who was killed on 24th August 1943 flying for 418 Squadron.

Following a suggestion from Brian Bines of this forum I have been looking into the question of whether this loss might have been due to friendly fire. I mentioned this during lunch with a BOB pilot, John and his family, who immediately piped up; "Dad'll tell you about that, wasn't there an incident in your Squadron." It seemed that there had been two such incidents in which his colleagues had been shot down by allied aircraft as a result of a lack of adequate communication between the Controllers at the various Beacons such that interceptors were sent out to positions determined by "Vectors". A statement made with some venom, even after all these years, so clearly the Squadron felt the loss of their airmen. This was in early 1943 so clearly the system at that time was still prone to errors.

The information I have had from Brian Bines, that followed an earlier thread on this forum concerning the ME410 losses on the night of 23/24-8-1943, together with the RAF combat logs which he also very kindly sent me , seemed to indicate that there was an 'extra' RAF claim that was not supported by Luftwaffe reports. This was not absolutely certain as the reports seem to be detailed differently and I wasn't sure if one Luftwaffe loss was being recorded as a 24th August claim by the RAF and a 23rd August loss by the Luftwaffe.

Nevertheless, only one Mosquito, which took off from Ford in Sussex at 02.28 on 24-8-1943, was lost by the RAF that night, and the German aircraft most likely to be confused with it was the ME410.

The timings, approximate locations and combat descriptions rule out all except one RAF reports as a possible cause for the loss of the Mosquito by friendly fire and that is the report by J Backhouse and G Goodman of 29 Squadron.

Whilst this is not conclusive, it provides a certain symmetry to the claims from either side, and I should be interested to hear if anybody else has investigated this claim in more detail.

From what I have learned, the weather over Northern France was fine but there could well have been thunderstorms over Central France.

Many thanks for any ideas about this,

Howard

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

I am afraid that unless the incident was already recognised during the war, you will not find anything but a circumstantial evidence.

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hi Guys,
44 pages is a lot to read so I have submitted what information I have regarding Kiwis and friendly fire:

1941: 1st August,
602 Sqn Spitfire
Sqn Ldr A C Deere.
Hurricane Z2463 (?) of 242 Sqn mistakenly shot down. Claimed as Bf.109 destroyed. Sgt M G A C Casgrain RAF killed.
Refs: ACFTF, FCL1, SNZ

1944: 10th June,
485 Sqn RNZAF Spitfire MK950 OU:X
Fg Off A B Stead
Seafire III NF542, from 3 NFW, FAA, shot down and destroyed following repeated attacks by it. Sub Lt R G Kennett on his first op, killed.
Refs: SNZ

1944: 19th June,
602 Sqn Spitfire LE:J
Wt Off E S Doherty
USAAF P-39 Aircobra destroyed over Pionbino. Mistaken for a Bf.109 and attacked.
Refs: AH, AH2, SNZ

1944: 30th June
486Sqn RNZAF Tempest V JN810 SA:P
Flt Sgt S J Short, Safe.
Hit by friendly A/A fire during an Anti-diver patrol & crash-landed at Newchurch. Aircraft SoC.
FCL3, TWW

1944: 26th August
602 Sqn Spitfire LF.IXe PL264
Flt Sgt L T Menzies, Safe
Attacked by USAAF P-47 and ran out of fuel evading during a morning armed recce of the Rouen area. Crash-landed at Torigni-sur-Vire, Manche.
Refs: FCL3, SH

1945: 13th January
486Sqn RNZAF Tempest V EJ752 SA:H
Flt Lt L J Appleton, Injured
Aircraft struck high-tension lines then hit and canopy blown off by American AA fire near Vreden during an air-cover support mission for the US 1st Army in the Ardennes. Crash-landed in US lines near Euskirchen, Pilot seriously wounded in face and neck. Repatriated to NZ
Refs: FCL3, TWW

1945: 13th January
486Sqn RNZAF Tempest V EJ606 SA:U
Plt Off W A Kalka, Safe
Hit by American AA fire and caught fire during an air-cover support mission for the US 1st Army in the Ardennes. Baled out (and shot at) near Euskirchen/Verviers.
Refs: FCL3, TWW

1945: 13th January
486Sqn RNZAF Tempest V EJ577 SA:F
Sqn Ldr A E Umbers, Safe
Force-landed in US lines near Euskirchen/Verviers after being hit by American light AA fire during an Air-cover support mission for the US 1st Army in the Ardennes.
Refs: FCL3, TWW

References:
ACFTF: A Clasp For The Few, Wynn, Kenneth
AH (Vols 1 & 2): Aces High, Shores, Christopher & Williams, Clive
FCL (Vols 1 & 3): RAF Fighter Command Losses, Franks, Norman L R
SH: Spitfire, The History, Morgan, Eric B & Shacklady, Edward
SNZ: Spitfire, The New Zealand Story, Morris, Gerard S
TWW: The Wild Winds (486 Sqn), Sortehaug, Paul


Hope I have helped out,
Cheers
Tony