Re: eBAy: Captured german planes
 

Thanks Roger. Very much appreciated.

Regards,
Rudi.

Re: eBAy: Captured german planes
 

Those Reggiane 2002 wrecks are indeed at Lyon-Bron, as was Ju 86 W.Nr. 5013 (RO+CW)

Re: eBAy: Captured german planes
 

Thanks for confirming this, Nick.

Regards,
Rudi.

Re: eBAy: Captured german planes
 

Fi156 https://www.ebay.com/sch/Photographs...20&_ssn=pkrug1

Re: eBAy: Captured german planes
 

Me410, wreck usa pilots in front. http://www.ebay.com/itm/WW2-US-AAC-A...4AAOSwsPlZ3Bbu
(4th pic from the left)

Re: eBAy: Captured german planes
 

Yes it is: 500004

Cheers,
Franck.

Re: eBAy: Captured german planes
 

Hi Franck,

the bare metal Me 262 at Neubiberg was 111728 and not 500004. Confirmed by several photos.

Cheers
Roger

Re: eBAy: Captured german planes
 

Okay, I have both and they look different.

Re: eBAy: Captured german planes
 

Yep,
The "experts" talk and made many comments in many posts, here in TOCH, in Old LEMB, and in LRG again.
The conclusion of all these talks was, the one with a Hungarian G-10 on top was 500004.
And, indeed there was this 111728. (depicted on today's eBay picture?)
Where have you been Roger during all this time? ;)
...
This said, I do accept your comment above, no doubt. But maybe the subject should be put on table, again and again?

Cheers
Franck.

Re: eBAy: Captured german planes
 

Hmmm..I have just looked through all my Neubiberg photos (which are a lot) and I saw just two Me 262s there - the bare-metal one (with the 109 on top), and "White 7" from III./EJG 2 (or so I think).
Ok, to be fair, I have no clear picture from the starboard side of "White 7", but otherwise I could not make out any traces of an applied Werknummer on both Me 262s. Were are the pictures that prove their Werknummern?

Re: eBAy: Captured german planes
 

Bf109 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Photo-Captur...AAAOSwjGpZ3PAV

Re: eBAy: Captured german planes
 

Franck,

I don't consider myself an expert. The W.Nr. 111728 is rather based on the fact that the number 728 is painted onto the bomb carrier of the 262 that was underneath the Hungarian G-10. It is known from other aircraft of the 1117xx block that the last 3 digits were painted onto the bomb carriers. Most likely because the fit of these carriers was so poor that they needed to be adjusted for every individual aircraft and could in most cases not be interchanged between aircraft (I have a wartime Mtt document in my archive that confirms this).

Please note that the starboard engine of 728 was later replaced with one that had a bare metal intake, while the original one had a painted intake. Maybe that led some people to conclude that they were two different aircraft.

Cheers,
Roger

Re: eBAy: Captured german planes
 

..ah ok, it's on the bomb carrier indeed! You just have to know what to look for :) Thanks Roger!

Re: eBAy: Captured german planes
 

PS: Look at the two pictures below. The one that shows 111728 before the 109 was dropped on top of it even shows the 728 painted onto the rear fuselage. Note the dark stripe in front of the vertical stabilizer that is also visible in the photo where the 109 is already sitting on top of the 262. They are one and the same aircraft and the W.Nr. is clearly 111728.

Cheers,
Roger

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/d7/1c/9a/d...itt-me--me.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/564x/54/d3/55/5...wii-planes.jpg

Re: eBAy: Captured german planes
 

OK 111728! Dan O'Connell is clear
I, now, just wonder who said before it was 500004?
Thanks Roger.

Franck.

Re: eBAy: Captured german planes
 

From Norbert Loy, Der Feldflugplatz Brunnthal, (2016), p.341:

Aircraft No. 58 (no photo)
Serial Number: 500004, KG 51

The camouflaged Me 262 was stored at the south west edge of the [Brunnthal] scrap yard. Two removed wings were visible. Beside these wings the tail unit with serial number 500004 (painted in black on the right side below the horizontal fin) was identified. ... Some former publications associated this serial number to an unfinished Me 262 at the Neubiberg airfield or to the Me 262 A-1/U3 "white 34". This is unlikely due to the photographs of Brunnthal ...

Jim

Re: eBAy: Captured german planes
 

Thank you Jim,

Start to be clear now.

Franck.

Re: eBAy: Captured german planes
 

Hello Snautzer,

First, thank you for the nice photo in post #451.

Irrespective the ebay captioning, unless I am mistaken I believe that it depicts Bf 109 G-6/AS (WNr. xxxxxx) coded 5+ Blue outlined white, possibly late of I. EJG2, and found abandoned at Fl.Horst Gardelegen in April 1945.

Respectfully,

Steve Sheflin

Re: eBAy: Captured german planes
 

From ULTRA in March 1945:

CX/MSS/R 488 (C),12

10-day return 1–10/3 addressed ((IT)), stamped 1600/11/3:-

Former strength: 16 Silber A2.

To strength:
110524, 111969 on 1/3 from Leipheim.
111555 on 7/3 from Leipheim.
110377 on 1/3 from Workshop Mühlheim.
110817 on 7/3 from Workshop Mühlheim.
110508 on 1/3 from Workshop Rheine.

Off strength:
170010, 10% tactical error, Repair Workshop Platoon, Rheine.
110588, 60% shot down by enemy fighters, Dismantling Workshop.
500045, 5% technical failure, Repair Workshop, Mühlheim.
500004, 10% returned to Workshop Hopsten, as repairs will take longer than anticipated.
110516, 20% weather, Repair Workshop Mühlheim on 2/3.
110941, 50% weather, to factory via Workshop Mühlheim, on 2/3. Missing 2/3.
110470, 25% tactical error, Workshop Platoon, Rheine, 8/3.

Present strength: 14 Silber A2.

NOTE: Source believes above was to Battle Unit Kowalewski from 5./KG 51.

Re: eBAy: Captured german planes
 

Thank you, Nick.

Norbert Loy also ascribed 500004 to KG 51, perhaps due to its markings.

Jim

Re: eBAy: Captured german planes
 

Bf109

1. http://www.ebay.com/itm/WW2-Photogra...0AAOSwmblZ3CZ3
2. http://www.ebay.com/itm/WW2-Photogra....c100005.m1851
3. http://www.ebay.com/itm/WW2-Photogra...4AAOSwFbJZ3zUc

Siebel?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/WW2-Photogra....c100005.m1851

Re: eBAy: Captured german planes
 

Bf 109 white 3 + a row of Bf 109's & a Bf 110:
https://eqhjxa.bn1302.livefilestore....&cropmode=none
http://www.ebay.com/itm/WW2-PHOTO-AL...19.m1438.l2649

Well known photo of Ju 88 3C+PN WNr 640643 at Wunstorf
https://eqjp0a.bn1302.livefilestore....&cropmode=none
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Gro%C3%9Ffoto...19.m1438.l2649

Regards,
Rudi.

Not captured Italian Ju87
http://www.ebay.de/itm/SELTEN-Ju-87-...IAAOSwBv9Z4d2J

Fw190 http://www.ebay.de/itm/US-Foto-Beute...cAAOSwpGFZ4cwB

He219 http://www.ebay.de/itm/Grosfoto-Hein...sAAOSwAClZ4dgR

Re: eBAy: Captured german planes
 

Hello Snautzer,
Regarding this Fw 190 photo in post #463: http://www.ebay.de/itm/US-Foto-Beute...cAAOSwpGFZ4cwB
Unless I am mistaken, I believe that this is:
AGO-built Fw 190 A-4/U8 (WNr. 142308) St.Kz. KS+JR, and formerly marked as 4+ red or black. It is shown after its capture by French forces.
Respectfully,
Steve Sheflin

Re: eBAy: Captured german planes
 

Crashed Enemy Aircraft Report No. 269:

Ju88G-6 W.N. 620643 3C+PN - listed as "Destroyed" (?)
Ju88G-1 W.N. 714759 C9+GA - listed as "Looted. Had carried upward firing guns."

Cheers

Rod

Re: eBAy: Captured german planes
 

Ju 87:
https://eqjboa.bn1302.livefilestore....&cropmode=none
http://www.ebay.com/itm/WW2-Photos-5...19.m1438.l2649

Regards,
Rudi

Re: eBAy: Captured german planes
 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Captured-Cra...gAAOSw41tZ4au4







Usual disclaimer,
Ed

Bf109 Usaaf star emblem http://www.ebay.com/itm/ww2-photo-Ge...gAAOSwR2RZ5kLo

Bf109 Usaaf star emblem (2) http://www.ebay.com/itm/ww2-photo-me...0AAOSwvR5Z5kG3

Ar68 Bavaria 1945 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Original-WWI...QAAOSwjZJZ5f44

Me262 (Chino?) http://www.ebay.com/itm/Captured-Ger...YAAOSw2vVZ4ZRM

Re: eBAy: Captured german planes
 

Hi Ed,

Post #467. I believe this is: He 111 H-16 (WNr. 161392) coded A1+CT, last with 9./KG53 and found abandoned damaged at Le Bourget, France on 44/08.
Respectfully,

Steve Sheflin

Re: eBAy: Captured german planes
 

Is it possible that USAF did "use" WNr.15270 of 6./JG53 (Both Gelbe 14 and II.Gruppe bar are visible and the gondolas have been removed) before sending it back to RAF (VX101) ?? It seems, yes, obviously.

Bf109. Reims France https://www.ebay.com/itm/WWII-US-GI-...EAAOSwG2tZ6WQC

Bf109 https://www.ebay.com/itm/WWII-US-GI-...0AAOSwCcZZ6WUP

He111 https://www.ebay.com/itm/WWII-photo-...cAAOSwE-lZ6PRK
He111 https://www.ebay.com/itm/WWII-photo-...IAAOSw3WxZ6PO4
Tail wreck https://www.ebay.com/itm/WWII-photo-...oAAOSwk~ZZ6PMg

Re: eBAy: Captured german planes
 

Thanks Michiel,

The 2nd, with L-5: Most probably this one:
A G-14. 9./JG76. 'Gelbe 11'. WNr.460425. Fl.Pl. Athis-Mons, Août 1944.

Regards.

Me 109 JG 76 "Athis"
 

Bonjour,

Oudjdat, you wrote that the Me 109 "Yellow" 11 (werknummer 460425) was left in "Athis Mons".
In fact this Me 109 ( and two others) was left in a field between two woods near the village of Athis in the département of "La Marne" (51).
Athis is 10 kilometers east of Epernay. The fields used by the JG 76 as a very primitive landing ground was in fact near the village of Plivot (if my memory is rigth, it was this latest name that was used by the Luftwaffe.
After the departure of the JG 76, the airfield was used by the Thunderbolt of the 36th Fighter group.
Even in the gallery of Marc-André, the airfield is wrongly called "Athis Mons".
I know very well this airfield because 30 years ago, I visited Plivot, went to the exact spot where the 109 where left. I spoke with the people living around and I was very lucky to find an old woman who was using a complete cowling of 109 to protect her wood !

Regards.
Rémi

Re: eBAy: Captured german planes
 

Thanks for the correction and precision Rémi !

Re: eBAy: Captured german planes
 

He 111:
captioned as Reims:
https://eqj3iq.bn1302.livefilestore....&cropmode=none
https://www.ebay.com/itm/WWII-US-GIs...19.m1438.l2649

https://eqigja.bn1302.livefilestore....&cropmode=none
https://www.ebay.com/itm/WWII-photo-...19.m1438.l2649

Different wrecks:
https://eqisqg.bn1302.livefilestore....&cropmode=none
https://www.ebay.com/itm/WW2-GERMAN-...19.m1438.l2649

Regards,
Rudi

Re: eBAy: Captured german planes
 

Re: eBAy: Captured german planes
 

POST 464 "Unless I am mistaken, I believe that this is:
AGO-built Fw 190 A-4/U8 (WNr. 142308) St.Kz. KS+JR, and formerly marked as 4+ red or black. It is shown after its capture by French forces."

I have this as KJ+SR

Re: eBAy: Captured german planes
 

Thanks for this nice shot, Snautzer. We have here a Mtt built plane, as the camouflage and the W.Nr. position on the lower rudder does ascertain, the last digit "5" being still legible.
After checking in Jean-Bernard Frappé's "La Luftwaffe face au débarquement allié" opus, we have here most probably W.Nr. 163 665, found wrecked at Reims Champagne airfield in September 1944.

Cheers
Marc

Re: Me 109 JG 76 "Athis"
 

Rémi,

Many thanks for your enlightening comment and recollections; my files are now corrected.

Cheers
Marc

Re: eBAy: Captured german planes
 

Hello again Snautzer,

1. Is an Erla built Bf 109 G-10, most probably found at Ganacker, close to Landau an der Isar airfield, as the characteristic background buildings and road layout does indicate.

2 and 3. Both shots do show another Erla built Bf 109 G-10 at Landau an der Isar airfield. According to Franck Benoîton, this one could be a Stab or I./KG(J) 55 machine.

Cheers
Marc