Re: JG 51 victories (Part 2)
 

Bonjour,

Indeed none of the victories granted to the French pilots are valid by the German losses which have only one damaged plane today. The victories were granted because the Soviet soldiers in the front lines reported the downing of three planes, but given the distance, it is impossible that the said planes could be identified.

The three French victories must be considered as "consolatory" for the French and to mitigate the potential sanctions of Moscow on the leaders of the first army weakened by the failed operation of February 23 (from memory) on German airfields.

On the first 10 days of April of which I put the translations on my site "normandie-niemen.fr", there are already 2 days when the first air army announces 4 victories against fock-wulf which are not confirmed by any division. In 1 case neither of them reported FW-190s and in the other two pilots repelled an attack by FW-190s against Il-2s, but claimed no victory. It seems that the staff of the first Soviet air force have inflated its victory to get out of the collimator of the Stavka (general staff of the Red Army).

Cordialement

Re: JG 51 victories (Part 2)
 

Seems obvious to me that the Soviet troops were reporting the French aircraft falling....

B Rgds
Stig

Re: JG 51 victories (Part 2)
 

Me too

Best regards

Re: JG 51 victories (Part 2)
 

Some others identified kill

10.04.1943, Ofw Hans Pfhaler 12/J51, U2, 45122 tiefung.
10.04.1943, fw Kurtz Tanzer 12/J51, U2, 45122 tiefung. 13h18

This day the 213th Night Bombing Aviation Division loose 2 U-2 during resupply missions from Zakharievskoye (33433).

Concerning Hans Pfhaler for those two claims of the 13th april 1943 againt the GC3 Normandie.
One is overclaimed (perhaps the first), the second seem to be the Ltn Poznansky.

p { line-height: 115%; margin-bottom: 0.25cm; background: transparent }

Re: JG 51 victories (Part 2)
 

Other one...

08.04.43

08.04.43Ltn. Franz Barten 11./JG 51 Il-2 45 521: at 700 m. 15.40 Film C. 2032/II Anerk: Nr. 393

One Il-2 from the 224 missing this day. The plane wreckage is found the 11th april, in the quadra 45522 (Orlovka).The Il-2 after been shooting had made an energency landing, aircraft destroyed, team wounded/

08.04.43 Ltn. Franz Barten11./JG 51 Il-2 45 342: at 700 m.15.42 Film C. 2032/II Anerk: ASM
overclaimed.

Re: JG 51 victories (Part 2)
 

on the GC NN 13 Apr 43 combat it is mentioned in BCRS V5 Pages 165-66. Not a good day for this unit.

Re: JG 51 victories (Part 2)
 

Hello,

Two news claims of the JG/51 identified :

24.03.1943 FW Rudolf Wagner 10/J51 - 1 Lagg-3 - 44654 at 3000 m 4h49
24.03.1943 FW Rudolf Wagner 10/J51 - 1 Lagg-3 - 44554 at 3000 m 4h45
24.03.1943 FW Rudolf Wagner 10/J51 - 1 Lagg-3 - 44654 at 3000 m 4h47

This day betwen at 5h to 6h15 am (russian times- 4h 5h15 german times) the 523 IAP escorting 224th IAd's Il-2 on Briansk airfield loosed two La-5 (Pilots Sokolsky and Avertian).



Then 2 confirmed and one overclaimed

Re: JG 51 victories (Part 2)
 

Very interesting Courtois

Some observations
According to Johannes Mathews Wagner only made two claims in the Bryansk area on 24 April (not March as given)
From where comes the third claim (time 04.47H)?

Since I am completely non Russian speaking/reading (it's all Greek to me :) ), the names you list and point
me towards both come up very differently when Mr Google translated them:
Sokolsky, Alexey Nikitich and Avetyan, Vartan Khachaturovich.

Can you or anyone else comment on that please?

Cheers
Stig

Re: JG 51 victories (Part 2)
 

Hy Stig,

I have 3 claims on two Pdf listing including one from Jan J Safarik and second anonymous. See Below, if someone know the autor thanks to him to help me.

https://zupimages.net/viewer.php?id=23/17/ebg5.png
picture : https://ibb.co/sjngK36
https://ibb.co/sjngK36

For the spelling it's because I read directly the 1943's repport where is some mispelling on sokovsky who 'is writtng Sokolovsky, and for Avartian today I m' a littke tired then i have forget to switch the B to V or misreading the handwritting V in B.

picure : https://ibb.co/gdysNgn
https://zupimages.net/viewer.php?id=23/17/j4ud.png
https://ibb.co/gdysNgn

Read old handwritting russian for a no-native russian,it's a fly at high level, something like an U-2 trying to better than an space shuttle.


Had a goday

Re: JG 51 victories (Part 2)
 

Hello,

New one claimed identified, this time for the 15(span) J51.

01.05.43Oblt. A. Pérez-Gonzáles15. (Span)/JG 51 LaGG-3 44 172: at 1.800 m.12.10Film C. 2032/II Anerk: Nr. 37.

Soviet report : (I tanslate a handwritting’s report, i could have done some misreading sorry)

At 12h45 (soviet times -> 11h45 german times) 4 Yak-7, leader lieutnant Strujkin carried out reconnaissance of the aerodrome of Sechtcha, during the return in the secteur of Belitsa (35894), the Yak were suddenly attacked by one FW-190. as a result, the pilot ml.lt Grachev was shot down, who landed in a forest on a clearing 10 km southwest of Betlitsa (34233).

The point given by the Soviets is 22 km NW of that given by the Spanish pilot, it seems a lot, but in the error path provided by the examples of discoveries of aircraft wreckage provided by the Russian research groups .
The Soviets have identified an FW-190, since April 26 the 15/JG1 is equipped with FW-190A3.
The time matches. The victory is therefore "scientifically" demonstrated.