Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hello Brian
still interested in these friendly fire cases?

1940-Jan-06;13:15; MBR-2; Tac Nr 5; 41 AE; Dam.; Busygin st.lt (Pilot) OK, Miroshnichenko, kapt (Nav) OK, Stepantsov ml.kom (AG/WO) OK; River Olonka; Own goal; Force-landed after attacked by 5 I-153s of VVS 8.A while it was returning from bombing mission against Mantsi. MBR-2 got appr 50 hits on engine, fuel tank etc, engine stopped, force-landed at 13:22 3km N of the mouth of the river
Source: Geust et al Red Star 5 pp. 87-88 ,179

Juha

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hi Juha

I trust you are well.

Many thanks for the latest - not one I had recorded! Just in time to go into Volume I, which should appear by the summer.

Cheers
Brian

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

What would be the name of your new book?

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hello Brian
I’m more or less OK
so another MBR-2 case
1939-12-06; 12:25; MBR-2; construction nr. 14/629; 41 AE; Destr.; Tsyplakov Petr A. lt (Pilot) KIA, Petrov st.lt (Nav) WIA, kapt Belov Sergey V. (KIA), Grishkov Vasiliy ml.k-r AG/WO (KIA); Vidlitsa / Vitele; Own goal; Shot down by 4 I-16s from 49 IAP (kapt Sizov, st.lt. Murzilov, st.lt Bobrov, adj. Savushkin)
Source: Geust et al Red Star 5 pp. 64-66 ,178



Cheers
Juha

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hello Brian, do you have 1x Hurricane lost (pilot killed) and 1x damaged by own ack-ack at Malta 22 January 1942?

Regards,
Bruce

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hello Brian
a few more


1939-11-30;; SB;; LVO; Forced down;; Veino;Own goal; Fighters of VVS KBF forced down after air surveillance service of NKVD misidentified the SB as a Ju 86
Source: Geust et al Red Star 5 p. 56

1939-11-30;; I-15bis;; 12 OIAE;W/O; Kulakov P.Ya. st.lt (Pilot) para;Khabolovo;Own goal;Shot down by SB of LVO during air-combat between 7 VVS KBF fighters and 3 SBs
Source: Geust et al Red Star 5 p. 56, 178

1939-12-01;;R-5;;; Shot down;Tereštšenko (pilot) WIA;Akkul / Leningrad Oblast;Own goal;Soviet AA shot down
Source: Vihavainen & Saharov (ed.): Tuntematon Talvisota s. 176

1939-12-01;17:00;SB;;41 SBAP;Destr.;Inozemtsev (Pilot) KIA, Vorobjov (Nav) KIA, Menšin AG/WO KIA;Ilijenš hamlet, Volosovo / Leningrad Oblast;Own goal;Shot down by a fighter which had white stripes over black, all Finnish claims on that day were over Finnish territory, so the fighter must have been a Soviet one
Source: Vihavainen & Saharov (ed.): Tuntematon Talvisota s. 181

Cheers
Juha

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Juha - absolutely excellent. Many thanks, indeed. I would never have found any of these without your help. Great stuff.

Bruce - yes, I do have the Malta incidents noted. Thanks.

Mars - the series will be called, I believe, "BLUE ON BLUE: Aerial Friendly Fire WWII"

Cheers
Brian

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

I'll try another one: do you have the 7th July 1943 night time bombing of Boise City, Oklahoma, by a student bombadier? He thought the lit up city was a bombrange ...

Bruce

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hi Bruce

Now that really sounds interesting! Please e-mail me with what you have.

Cheers
Brian

PS: Hope to get to Kew next Thursday (I will have to confirm). Any chance you might be there?

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Pretty good chance, and I can show you the original source for the Oklahoma atrocity.
TTFN,
Bruce

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

BRIAN,
Found this one, although I am sure you do have it....
Fantastic subject you will be writing on...we will be waiting for the series...
Yours
Adriano
Here it goes:
Wilhelm Steinmann was born on 15 January 1912 at Nürnberg. He joined the Luftwaffe in 1936 and trained as a bomber pilot. Steinmann served with 3./KG 53 from 1939 to 1941. He later served as Technischer Offizier with II./Fliegerkorps. He then underwent conversion training to become a fighter pilot. On 6 October 1942, Steinmann was posted to the Gruppenstab of I./JG 27 based on the Channel front. He was serving with 3./JG 27 when he recorded his first victory on 18 May 1943, a RAF Typhoon fighter-bomber shot down over the Channel. On 1 June, Steinmann claimed a RAF Spitfire shot down. However, he had made a mistake in identification and had shot down a Bf 109 G-6 flown by the Gruppenkommandeur of I./JG 27, Hauptmann Erich Hohagen (56 victories, RK). Hohagen was forced to bail out of his Bf 109 G-6 (W.Nr. 16 391) but had been wounded in the incident.

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Found this one today, while searching Google News for crash details in Canada

On 17 July 1943 a RCAF aircraft bombed an outdoor dance at Roseland, Manitoba, believing he was over a bombing range. A young girl was killed.

Source (1943 newspapers):
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...aircraft&hl=en

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Thanks Adriano and Laurent

Excellent material. Keep 'em coming!

Cheers
Brian

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hello Brian
One for your book, it now appears from my research that one of the two RAF Whitleys which crashed into a balloon 15th August 1940 near Eastleigh was involved in a friendly fire incident before the collision and crash.

14-15 August 1940 Headquarters No.4 Group

Two aircraft fouled balloon cables and crashed on return, one aircraft shot at by friendly aircraft but no damage. The other aircraft having engine and intercom trouble.

I have traced the "other aircraft" okay in the Squadron and Station ORBs and also the No.4 Group Signal in the appendices regarding Whitley P4982 which hit the balloon barrage of 956 Squadron Langley, HQ Colnbrook.

Whitley P5044
However, the Signal for Whitley P5044 is missing in the No.4 Group Appendices.

I have had two 'phone conversations with a Mr Stenhouse in New Zealand who learnt from an August 1940 AA Battery Commander that Captain Stenhouse who is commemorated at Fawley, Hampshire was shot down and I have had another conversation with a family relative of the crew who learnt after the war from a former Serviceman in the area that the Whitley crew buried at Fawley All Saints had been in an incident and only just made it back before crashing.

I have the last 16 miles sound track plotted, the height given the Winchester Centre was 10,000 feet, but the plane [later given as a British Plane] lost height and crashed into the Balloon Barrage at Eastleigh 03.30 (RAF 924 Balloon Squadron time); 03.34 hours 35th AA Brigade / 5th Div AA HQ time and 03.35 hrs the Observer Post time.

"Ms" is entered against the C of I number on the Flying Accident Card which meant the Inquiry was "Incomplete".
Cause "F6" meaning "Loss of control after hitting or avoiding obstacles in bad visibility" was ruled out and changed to "F9" meaning "Obscure".
"F8" meaning “Miscellaneous” (was later in 1940, split into F8A - Airframe Defects and F8B - Miscellaneous).
Finally "F4" which meant "Flying into ground, sea or hills in cloud or fog" was given as the primary cause.

These being standard RAF Flying Accident Cause Groupings for analysis purposes by Air Ministry Department S4, "F" meant the accident occurred whilst "In Flight"

It would appear that the Eastleigh Balloon Barrage was being likened to a hill and the cable was struck almost immediately after the Whitley descended out of the cloud base. However, exactly what happened before Eastleigh has been a family mystery for 70 years, the Air Ministry only told the family that they flew up Southampton Water, crossed the coast near Southampton and struck a balloon over Eastleigh, but according to the sound plots they had already crossed the coast and were first plotted near Fareham, by the Observer Post. The Members of the Observer Posts at Havant; Lee on Solent and Marchwood were all called in to the Winchester Centre later in the day.

“Red Flares” a visual sign of an aircraft sending a wireless Distress signal were seen South-east of Sandown, IOW at 03.23 before the crash. Incidentally, the Balloon Barrages were raised at 03.22 hrs. The GPO Log of Casualty Calls indicates Niton received an SOS from an unknown aircraft. The August 1940 Monthly Returns of Distress Broadcasts to aircraft flying over the sea, from the GPO Director of Wireless Telegraphy to the Air Ministry indicates RAF Gosport requested Niton transmit a “Distress Broadcast” to an aircraft. Unfortunately, neither documents note the time, or any details.

The Accident was reported to the AIB (Accidents Investigation Branch) and recorded on their "U" Index which meant that there was either one, or more of the following:
Forced parachute descent
(a) Where a Court of Inquiry is to be convened under KR (Kings Regulations) 1326
(b) where the accident may in the opinion of the CO be due to:-
(i) failure of any part of the aircraft
(ii) a defect in workmanship, design or material
(iii) a part of the aircraft catching fire in the air
(iv) compass defects
(v) any obscure cause

I have tried AVIA 5/19 and 42 and only discovered that the "U" accidents list were investigated by the AIB, a few other examples I found included structural failure, catching fire and one due to bad weather.

Has anyone come across any other information about this incident in their searches at The National Archives, or have any other sources of information please?
Research by Mark R. Hood 2010.
Grandson of the Observer Sgt Hood

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hi Brian, a new case (for me), and an Italian one, with details (sadly in Italian language, but Google translated enough for me to check it may interest you)

An Italian transport BA.44 flying from Albania shot down by CR.42 on 15 April 1941: http://quandogliaereiavevanolelica.m...operativa.html

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Thanks Mark - I do have this incident recorded (I have also been following your posts). But thanks all the same.

Thanks Laurent - yes, a completely new one for me also. Very grateful for your continued help.

Cheers
Brian

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Just joined this forum. The following is a FF, air to ground. Does anyone have knowledge of this incident?

Assist in my research for the following seven Riflemen, who were killed/died of wounds, as the result of an accidental strafing by a Mustang in the town of Saint George-de-Groselliers, Normandy, France:


To provide some background information:
The seven with the Royal Winnipeg Rifles were taken prisoners by the Germans, possibly on D-Day or anytime between D-Day and June 11, 1944. Although the Commonwealth War Graves Commission lists dates of four deaths as June 8, 1944, they were definitely killed or wounded on June 11, 1944. I have an article that was written by a French priest, who attended the dead and dying. This article was written in 1964 and verifies the actual dates of the deaths.

POW's from the Royal Winnipeg Rifles, as well POW's from the North Nova Scotia Highlanders and Cameron Highlanders of Ottawa were marching in a column, four abreast, and behind the Germans, when the four Mustangs appeared. The first Mustang strafed the column. One of the POW's, reportedly, Sgt. Bob Higgins, North Novas, waved his jacket and the other Mustangs left without further shooting.

Thirty POW's were injured; of these, ten were killed and were buried in the civil cemetery in Saint Georges-de-Groselliers; and four others died as results of their wounds; three of the four were buried in the civil cemetery in La Chapelle au Moine, Normandy. A fourth who died of wounds was buried in a location yet unknown. The 14 POW's were eventually buried at the Bretteville-Sur-Laize Canadian War Cemetery, in Calvados, France.

The townspeople took great care to remove ID's and anything the men had in their pockets, and the mayor and his staff recorded each item, referencing this information to specific graves which had been dug in the civil cemetery. The records and items were kept until the war ended and the graves concentration units arrived in the area and then everything was handed over to the graves units.

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

This is an update to my first posting:

It has been recently reported that there were 39 POW's injured; 10 of whom died immediately, and 5 of the injured later dies of their wounds.

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Found this one today, and not able to check it with another source:

On the 24th March 1943, a BF 109E (Werkn 1987) of the Frontreparatur Werk 7 Erla stationed at Deurne crashed at Boechout, Belgium. The pilot was Ofw Reinhardt Jochmann who was able to bale out, but he reached the ground wounded. This aircraft was shot down in error at 1215 hours by Ofw Detlev Lüth of JG 1.

Source:
http://www.lwag.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-1249.html
http://maps.google.fr/maps?hl=fr&source=hp&q=Boechout

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Another interesting case: a Wellington downed by an Allied balloon barrage... after flying purposely into it !

By the way, I found two dates for Wellington P9210 destruction, 23 and 24 March 1942, and would like which one is the correct one.

Source:
http://www1.somerset.gov.uk/archives...ead_screen.pdf
(context of the loss, search P9210 and read the sentences before this word)
http://www.bbrclub.org/Tiger%20Hawkins%20AFC.htm (details of the pilot, of the crash and picture of the pilot besides the wreck)

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Some days are like that... every foray in Google today brings me another "friendly fire" case. I swear I'm not searching these !

26 October 1942: Ju 87 D-1 WNr 2629 of III./StG 1 shot down by German artillery shell near Strelitsy, USSR. Both crew (Hptm Heinz Fischer (pilot and Staka 7./StG 1) and Uffz Fritz Zethmeier (radio)) were killed

More details (in French):
http://www.luftfahrtverlag-start.de/...anzoesisch.pdf

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hello All

Were you aware that the ratio of aircraft and crews lost to balloons in early WW2, British to German was 4:1?

Four British aircraft, for every (One) German aircraft and even some of those German aircraft were shared with AA.

In March 1941, Arthur T. Harris was absolutely livid and furious with the Chief of the Air Staff when he realised how many crews and aircraft had already been lost since the beginning of the war.

Mark

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hello Brian

Georgii Dmitriyevich Kostylev (Костылев Георгий Дмитриевич) and Igor Aleksandrovich Kaberov (Каберов Игорь Александрович) from 2nd eskadrilya 3st GIAP KBF on Hurricane aircraft destroyed one I-153 of Petr Ignatyevich Biskup (Бискуп Пётр Игнатьевич) from 4. GIAP KBF over Nizino airfield in July 1942.

Sources:
Абрамов, Александр: Красные соколы, Лучшие Асы России, 1914 - 1953 гг., http://airaces.narod.ru/.
Šedivý, Miloš - Dymič, Valerij: Triumf a tragédie, Sovětští stíhací letci v bojích II. světové války, Svět křídel 2001.

JAN

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

What was name of POW died-burial unknown?

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Thanks for all the latest gen.

Volume I of Blue-on-Blue (1939/1940) is currently being 'processed' so hopefully something will appear before long!!

Cheers
Brian

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Another case?

29 December 1944: Four Typhoons attacked power station at Nijmegen, four rounds were fired by 365 Bty, 115 HAA Rgt. Typhoons dived to 800 ft and were escorted away by Spitfires.

Source:
http://www.royalartilleryunitsnether...D_6269690.html

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

German friendly case on 6 November 1939:

"eine in Zwischenahn zur Zieldarstellung gestartete W34 mit 3 Mann Besatzungn ist von der Flak, sdl. von Hamburg, um 2147 Uhr abgeschossen worden.
Die Besatzung hatte offensichtlich die Orientierung verloren und sich am südlichen Stadtrand von Hamburg aufgehalten.
Um 2120 Uhr und 2124 Uhr erhält die Maschine deutsches Flakfeuer und schießt deutsche Erkennungssignale. Um 2125 wird die W34 von einem Scheinwerferkegel erfaßt und um 2131 einwandfrei als deutsch gemeldet. Um 2133 Uhr wird sogar das Balkenkreuz erkannt. Trotzdem erhält die Maschine um 2142 Uhr nochmals Flakfeuer. Um 2147 Uhr gehen drei Besatzungsmitglieder mit dem Fallschirm zur Erde nieder und wurden in ein Krankenhaus eingeliefert.
"

Google traduction (too lazy (and sick...) today to do better):
"one is in Zwischenahn for target simulation started with three men W34 Besatzungn by flak, sdl from Hamburg, was shot at 2147 Clock.
The crew had apparently lost their way and stayed on the southern outskirts of Hamburg.
To 2120 and 2124 Clock Clock, the machine is replaced by German antiaircraft fire and shoots German recognition signals. To 2125, the W34 is caught by a spotlight at 2131 and fully reported as German. 2133 Clock To even the cross bar is detected. Nevertheless, the machine is replaced by 2142 Clock flak again. 2147 Clock To go with three crew members parachuted to the ground and were taken to hospital."

Source:
http://www.luftfahrtspuren.de/forum/viewtopic.php?t=61

No other data, to check with people having German 1939 loss lists

Best regards

Laurent

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Many thanks once again, Laurent.

Excellent - another 'new' one for me!

Cheers
Brian

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hello Brian,

I joined recently and noticed two FAA-related friendly fire incidents mentioned in some of the earliest posts in this thread. I may have some information of interest:

28 May 1940: two Skuas 806 Sqn FAA reported attacks by Curtiss off Dunkerque.

Although Sturtivant does mention French Curtiss as attackers, White Section of 806 Sqn (less one aircraft, which had crashed on take-off from Manston) was attacked by RAF Spitfires, according to 806 Sqn. survivors (e.g., see the 'Skua' book by Smith).
The only source giving a few details on the attackers is Air Enthusiast Issue no. 8: Green and Swanborough mention 66 Squadron Spitfires and report that stories of 'Voughts' (V-156Fs), supposedly in German hands, circulated as an explanation for the incident.

24/7/40: Two Skuas 808 Squadron shot down by Spitfires from 610 Squadron. Serial numbers of Skuas? Both force-landed at Worthy Down.

808 Sqn. was formed with 12 Fulmars in July 1940, not Skuas. Fulmar serial numbers are given by Sturtivant and there are two or three aircraft that seemingly have no history after delivery to 808 Sqn.
Do you have any details on this incident?

Best Regards

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hi FlyNavy

Yes, I have. My research has different conclusions as will be seen in Volume I of Flying Sailors at War, hopefully to appear in June.

If you are desperate for the information, however, send me a PM

Cheers
Brian

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Brian
My father survived a friendly fire incident while on patrol at night in the Pacific.
He was one of Black Mac's killers in VMF(N)-533 ca.1945
I cannot give exact details about everything but the story is fascinating. I have a few pics of the Hellcat he brought home

would be willing to re-tell the story as best i can in an email

clay.parkhill@yahoo.com

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hi Clay

Yes please, I would be delighted to receive an account. Please contact me briancullauthor@fsmail.net

Many thanks
Brian

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

One for your book, from the archives:

"On 22/10/44, (22/11/44 according to some sources), F/O John Francis Anthony Raynes, of 148 Squadron RAF, (Special Duties – S.O.E.) "C" Flight, was flying Lysander T1456, near Udine, Italy, en route to Southern Austria, during a daylight operation from Northern Italy, when he was attacked, and shot down.

His attacker was a USAAF P-51 of 325th Fighter Group.

F/O J.F.A. Rayns, was killed, as were his passengers, described variously as three Italian agents, or two SOE decorated captains, who were agents involved in the TEMPLAR Mission."

reported in Carpetbaggers Roll of Honour. and CWGC

Terry Maker, Operation: Dark of the Moon
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/operationdarkofthemoon/

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Dear Brian

I don't know whether I wrote it to you but I managed to find new information to my article Nevydařená „Čajka“ which was published in REVI magazine. So far unknown Soviet pilot who shot down Vaclav Ohem over Eastern Germany was Umyarov (Умяров). I hope it will help you.

Source: Režňák, Libor: Ocelový hřebec MiG-19 a československé letectvo 1958-1972, Svět křídel, Cheb 2008.

Best regards
JAN

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Soviet pilots shot down by mistake French plane Potez 540, F-A000 in Spain on 3rd December 1936. After the emergency landing the plane broke down and burned down. One of the passengers, French journalist Louis Delapree, died. The plane should have been shot down by a group of Evgenii Yefimovich Yerlikin (Евгений Ефимович Ерлыкин), some sources present pilots Nikolai Ivanovich Shmelkov (Николай Иванович Шмельков) and Georgii Nefedovich Zakharov (Георгий Нефедович Захаров)
(page 74)


The pilots of Legion Condor shot down by mistake one plane Ro.37bis on 10th December 1936, the crew Jose Company F. Bernal and Rafael Jimenes Benamu were injured.
(page 75)

Source:
# Абросов, Сергей Владимирович: Воздушная война в Испании. Хроника воздушных сражений 1936-1939 гг., Издатель: Яуза, Эксмо, 2008, ISBN: 978-5-699-25288-6. / Abrosov, S.V.: Vozdusnaja vojna v Ispanii. Chronika vozdusnych srazenij 1936-1939 gg. M., Jauza, 2008.

[ # Абросов, Сергей Владимирович: В небе Испании 1936-1939 годы, Издательство: г.Москва, без издательства, 2003, ISBN: 5-08-0040-89-0.]

Best regards
JAN

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Further information to my earlier post regarding F/O J.F.A.Rayns, (sometimes spelt 'Raynes') the following additional information has just come into my hands,

"The Lysander appears to have been identified by the Mustang pilot as a Henshel 123."

Terry Maker

OPERATION: Dark of the Moon

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Brian,

here's an odd friendly fire incident, reported by Peter C. Smith in his book "Eagle's War", p. 55:

"On 4 September, passing to the South of Crete, an enemy dive-bombing attack was made on Eagle, at sunset (1900). The bombs fell very close, close enough in fact to put the dynamo out of action for lighting and supplying power to the pom-pom mounting. Consequently this weapon could not open fire for several vital minutes. An emergency call was sent to Illustrious for fighter protection and three Fulmars still in the air duly arrived and were greeted by being fired on by Eagle's AA guns! These proved so effective that the Fulmars had to land on owing to damage."

The bomber attack was, probably, not a true dive-bombing one, as the newly-operational Italian Ju.87s of 96° Gr., based in Sicily, wouldn't have the range. Bombers might have come instead from one of the Italian airfields in the Aegean.

Best regards

Claudio

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Air-to-sea friendly attack on 15 july 1940:

German bombing sank Estonian steamer MERISAAR (2136grt), captured by U.99 on the 12th, off Queenstown. The German prize crew was rescued and made prisoners of war.

Source:
http://www.naval-history.net/xDKWW2-4007-20JUL02.htm

This thread will not die ....

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Thanks Laurent

I had missed that one!!

Cheers - trust you are well

Brian

PS: Thanks also Terry, Jan and Claudio for your recent contributions - all very useful and of great interest.

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 

Hi Brian,

Thansk, I am fine and hope you are too.

A new (for me) case: a He 111 of KG 3 shot down by a German ship off Netherlands on the evening of 30 July 1944

http://www.wingstovictory.nl/database/pdf/615-story.pdf

The above site is interesting as it gives many details, and will put together wartime reports. One possible problem is that they all are in their original language (here Dutch and German).