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Re: Friendly fire WWII
Definitely not a Mosquito Brian; metal fuselage!
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Re: Friendly fire WWII
Thanks Mark
Just in the process of wiping egg off face! Cheers Brian |
Hampden 13th June 1940 144 Sqn P4345 Shared with A.A.
Hello Brian
We have been led to believe that this accident 13.6.1940 Hampden P4345 was caused by a balloon collision. However, Statements uncovered indicate that a shot was fired and the Hampden had begun to disintegrate before impact. Cpl J. Dowell NCO of the "Apron Guard" said that he heard the plane in the balloon barrage area and at the same time "heard the percussion of what sounded like a shot". The Hampden crashed into Marriage & Sons Flour Mill, in Felixstowe Docks. F/O Myles confirmed that the Hampden had struck a balloon barrage cable over the estuary of the river Orwell off Felixstowe and further stated that "the aircraft appeared to have disintegrated somewhat, both immediately before, and upon impact, as small parts of wreckage, maps, etc. were recovered from the vicinity." In another attached report he states that the balloon was the sole agent in bringing the aircraft down. F/O Stanley W. Tinham states in his Statement that an "Action Warning" was on and off until 02.35 hrs 13th June 1940 and that the balloons had been raised because of the action warning. The balloon was "Water borne @ 2,500' " [2,500 feet] per A.M. 1180 Accident Card. The accident time was given as 02.35 hrs and an Air Ministry list gives the aircraft impact height 2,500 feet. Official Air Ministry records indicate that Balloon Command were forbidden from flying balloons in that estuary above 1,000 feet. My comment: Not only had the balloons been raised against a friendly aircraft, but the balloon struck was 1,500 feet higher than the height permitted by the Air Ministry. Mark |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Hi Brian
You are right, Desmond McMullen (with cap) was F/Lt when flying Defiants of 151 Sqn from December 1940 to July 1941. His turret gunner was Sgt Fairweather (maybe not the guy on the pic ?) Friendly AA fire confirmed by McMullen's son Roddy. Regards, Thierry |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Don't think it is on this list so far: on 17 November 1944 Romanian Ju 87 were attacked over Hungary by Soviet fighters (their new allies since 3 months) and two were shot down (2 KIA, 2 WIA).
The site is in Hungarian, but a Google translation works well, the battle story is at the end of the webpage: http://avionics.hu/Rom%C3%A1n+L%C3%A...44+november+17 |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
I assisted the team in identifying the doomed aircraft (to their surprise, it turned out to be a Rumanian Ju 87D-5). In turn, I received a few small pieces of the excavated wreck.
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Re: Friendly fire WWII
Having spoken to McMullens son, the photo is of his Spitfire damaged in combat in Apr 42 not a Defiant damaged by AA fire in 1941
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Re: Friendly fire WWII
concerning the recovery: a very strange crane isn't it?
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Re: Friendly fire WWII
try this weird one'-about 10 Civilian planes were shot down over the Irish sea.north of the Isles of Mann;;from october 1941- early 42-a P40 american flown missing was listed as ferrying too prestwick..
reasons no idea? info lost circa 2005, that I read on the net.. think the site was history of Raf ?.. i tried to find more since but no luck at All sharon |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Two webpages in Russian, Google translation is your friend :)
On 6 August 1945, two Soviet patrol boats were attacked by US aircraft off the Pacific coast of USSR, and 8 (or 11) Soviet sailors were killed, while they claimed an aircraft shot down. Source: http://www.piragis.ru/publikatscii-p...-moryakov.html http://forum.patriotcenter.ru/index.php?topic=5296.0 Still needing some research on this case. Best regards Laurent |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
On 21 September 1944 the Soviet submarine ShCh-402 was sunk off Norway, probably by Soviet Bostons.
http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/ship/5073.html |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
It's just one of these days... a third case for today:
1st Lt Joseph Andrew Dugan of 310th FS, 58th FG was killed on 10 January 1945 when his P-47D-15 42-23220 was shot down over Lingayen Gulf, Luzon, Philippine Islands by friendly fire from U.S. Navy fighters. Sources: "No Glamour. No Glory! The Story of the 58th Fighter Group of World War II", by Anthony J. Kupferer http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg...&GRid=56775450 MACR 12201 |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Uffz. Heinz Luginger of 4.(F)/123 was killed on 24 May 1944 when his Bf 109 G-5 WNr. 27108 was shot down in error by German Flak, near Lison (south east of Carentan).
Source: http://www.ghostbombers.com/recon/bf109h_2.html http://www.volksbund.de/graebersuche...EF6CA726BE45CC http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lison http://www.maplandia.com/france/bass.../bayeux/lison/ |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
I came across this information back in 2010 but never got around to posting it because life has gotten in the way of visiting the forums.
According to the author, the 747th Tank Battalion was working with the 175th Infantry Regiment on 8th June 1944 when RAF Typhoons misidentified their column and attacked, with tragic results. Lieutenant Homer Wilkes, a tank platoon commander, remembered: " … The column formed up at Vierville in terrain curiously free of hedgerows. We started out in column on the road with Company C leading. I know not what the others thought, but I thought we were marching to the front. This impression was corrected minutes later by the appearance of an infantry skirmish line. Although it was my first taste of battle, I knew what that meant ... One strong point was Osmanville. And there on a clear day this village was attacked by a dozen British fighter-bombers. The Company C platoon leader of the advance guard was killed trying to display his identification panel. Other officers threw out smoke grenades. But the strike was pressed home until the pilots had dropped all their bombs and expended all ammunition. As a result, thirty-two infantrymen were slain, plus our officer, and Company C lost an entire platoon of tanks … " See p.149 Yeide, Harry. The Infantry's Armor: The U.S. Army's Separate Tank Battalions in World War II (Mechanicsburg, PA: Stackpole Books, 2010). There was a similar incident noted by Joe Balkoski when he wrote Beyond The Beachhead which is possibly connected to this one. *** On 10th November 1942, RAF Hudson V9253 (53 Squadron) was shot down by flying debris from its own depth charges; one of which scored a direct hit on the German submarine U-505 that was surfaced at the time. The U-boat was heavily damaged but returned to base at Lorient. The four-man RAF aircrew was lost along with one U.S. Navy passenger, including: Flight Sergeant R. R. Sillcock, RAAF; Sergeant P. G. Nelson, RNZAF; Sergeant W. Skinner, RAF; Sergeant T. R. Millar, RAF; and Seaman 1st Class H. L. Brew, USN. (Source: U-Boat vs. Aircraft by Franks/Zimmerman, p.15) |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
You probably have already much on the Typhoon attack on HMS minesweepers in the Channel on 27 August 1944, but the site below has much about this tragedy, including reports and testimonies:
http://www.halcyon-class.co.uk/frien...of_1st_msf.htm One day later, the Soviet did exactly the same, attacking their own minesweepers with their ground-attack aircraft: off Narva, Il-2 of 35 ShAP attacked a Soviet flotilla and damaged 8 ships, killing 5 men and wounding 11. Two Russian sources on this: http://www.navy.su/daybyday/july/05/index.htm http://www.bgudkov.ru/?page_id=396 Best regards |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Hi guys
Thanks for the latest - sorry I'm late in acknowledging - had a PC crash! Cheers Brian |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Think it is a new (at least for me): on 20 September 1944 an Allied battle group including part of 654th TD Bn was attacked in error by Allied fighter-bombers:
"At 1700 hours our fighter-bombers, through error, bombed and strafed positions held by the CP Group, Headquarters Company and Company "C". Also the 448th AAA Battalion. One AA gun was destroyed and the crew killed when a bomb made a direct hit on the gun. Sergeant Walston and Corporal Lehman of Company "C" were slightly wounded in this action. " Source: http://654th.com/1944_sep_20.htm The next day, units of 35th US Division were attackezd by P-47s: "CCB 4th AD was attached to division at 211000A, moving from Luneville to assembly area in the vicinity of Jallaucourt. The 35th Division QM Company was bombed and strafed by our P47's in the vicinity of Harancourt. The same planes dropped one bomb in the vicinity of the division command post. " Source: http://654th.com/1944_sep_21.htm |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Hello All, especially Brian
RN Shipping Damaged or Lost due to Friendly - Air and Other Actions I was away in June and came across an HMSO Admiralty publication "Ships of the Royal Navy Statement of Losses" 3rd September, 1939 to 2nd September, 1945, 70 pages, for £20 in a s/h shop. Some were damaged or sunk by:- 1. friendly air fire and other friendly firing. 2. friendly Mines 3. our own Blockships 4. collision or being rammed Now I can see why our Royal Navy were so keen to open fire on all unidentified aircraft which came within the exclusion zone around HM ships, which sometimes resulted in engaging our own aircraft, or the shooting down of our own aircraft over the sea. Mark |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Hello Mark,
did you buy this publication? Regards Darius |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Darius
Yes, at £20 I did buy the 1947 HMSO publication. Brian, I have sent a PM (your inbox was full when trying to send a second PM), so sent an email with pdf (3 page) attachment. The book is bigger than A4 and after several attempts moving it on the scanner, I managed to scan the two analysis pages by ship type. However, you need the rest of the book to get the names of the ships and "How lost" column. My copy was impossible to scan due to pressing against the tight hinge / binding and the book trying to move. According to files in TNA, Kew, even our own aircraft sent to escort our ships were occasionly engaged by the ship that they were sent to protect! Mark |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Hi Brian, hope you are both well.
I have the HMSO publication Mark mentioned, and you are welcome to borrow it. I confess to dozing off on this, as I had forgotten that it has a set of tables showing losses including a column marked 'Own Forces'. As Mark says, the rest of the book will be needed to tie up the losses. Of course, in some cases you will be able to correct the HMSO publication. By the way, your PM box is full. Regards, Bruce |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
A new one for me: on 13 September 1943, as the HMS Britomart and Russian destroyers were escorting some British transports in Kola Bay, the convoy was attacked by German aircraft. Ltn. Günter Eichhorn of 7./JG 5 shot down a MBR-2 of 118 MRAP covering the convoy, killing the three crew. A Soviet Hurricane flew too close of the convoy during the attack and was shot down by the British transport Empire Fortune. The pilot, Mlaadshi Leytenant Nikolaev, was rescued. No unit is listed for him
Source: http://www.halcyon-class.co.uk/SBNOreports/sep_1943.htm German claims and details of Soviet losses from my files Edited: more on the subject, about two other former cases of friendly fire, with no precise date: http://www.halcyon-class.co.uk/SBNOreports/dec_1942.htm |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Hi Laurent
Excellent! More 'new' information. I've posted an enquiry for further info. Keep it coming! Many thanks Brian |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Hi Brian
HMS Britomart was of course involved in another friendly fire incident - this time being the subject of unwanted attention by Typhoons on 27 August 1944. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Britomart_(J22) for the history of HMS Britomart. Allan |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Thanks Alan
I have that tragic incident recorded. Cheers Brian |
Low Flying Incident killing 10 boys 15th May 1943
Brian
Not sure if you have this, if you have, there might be some more details. Apparently there is a report in The Times 2nd June 1943. LOW FLYING: DOWNSIDE ACCIDENT. HL Deb 10 June 1943 vol 127 cc1032-42 “LORD WINSTER had the following question on the Paper: To ask His Majesty's Government whether a statement can now be made concerning the recent deaths at Downside School caused by the low flying of, a Fleet Air Arm machine” … “As regards the matter of an inquiry, an inquest has been held but that inquest, of course, was, of necessity, directed only to establishing the cause of death. It could not be directed to establishing the cause of the accident, and the facts leading up to this disaster have not yet been made known authoritatively to the public.” … “What alarms them is the feeling, when they know that something has gone wrong, that the facts are being concealed from them.” … “I am informed that none of the parents of the boys killed or injured has received any letter expressing regret from any naval authority, and in fact no naval authority has called at the hospital where these injured boys are or has made any inquiries.” “The last point that I want to mention is a point of public interest—namely, this question of low flying. One can only ask the question, how much longer is this criminal thing to go on, and can no stop be put to it? In the present instance, the Father Abbot of Downside had done everything that he possibly could by official means to put an end to this practice. It was an evil of long standing at Downside. The Father Abbot has called twice at the Air Ministry; he has written two official letters; he has telephoned to the authorities; he has given the official numbers of the aircraft which were at fault. Even that has not stopped it, and, even since this tragedy at Downside, this low flying has occurred again at the school. Before the tragedy this was a regular nuisance at Downside; it was a persistent practice, which was affecting the nerves of the boys.” THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE ADMIRALTY (LORD BRUNTISFIELD) … “With regard to the general question of low flying, I do not want to go into this particular accident in detail, for the simple reason that further proceedings are pending. There is a court martial involved, and obviously it would be highly improper for me to say anything which may in any way affect the trial of the officer concerned.” … “In general, however, I should like to say that, in common with the Air Ministry, the Admiralty views all forms of dangerous and low flying as in the worst possible taste and as the height of bad manners. The strictest regulations exist, which are frequently brought to the notice of flying officers, to prevent the occurrence of this exceedingly deplorable practice.” … – Crown Copyright Inquest Resumed Inquest at the Downside School Gymnasium 1st June 1943 - Plane Crash at Downside School Playing Ground on May 15th 1943 during a Cricket Match, killing nine of the boy spectators. The Headmaster of the School was Dom Christopher Butler. Rev. John Bernard Orchard, House-master Police Detective Constable Fisher Very Rev. R. S. Trafford, Abbot of Downside Pilot Sub. Lt. A. C. McCracken, Australian, of the Fleet Air Arm also killed Mr A. Myddleton-Wilshere appeared for Sub Lt. John B Leeming, Pilot of the other plane, flying in the company with McCracken Mr J. McKenna appeared for the Admiralty Boys were; Hugh Michael Dearlove (14), son of Group Captain Dearlove killed early in the war and Mrs C. M. Dearlove, Horris Bank of Newtown, Newbury, Berkshire; David Hugh Lowndes (16), son of Mrs G. W. Bishop, Ennismore, Gardens, London; Lawrence John McNabb (15), son of Wing Commander and Mrs McNabb of ParkTown, Oxford; Brian Richard Patrick McSwiney (14), son of Dr and Mrs S. A. McSwiney of Caton, The Golfs, Eastbourne, Sussex; Michael Bagot Quinlan (15), son of Mr & Mrs P. B. Quinlan of Ealing, London; Philip Humphrey Peter Rose (15), son and Heir of Sir Philip Rose, Bart, Hazlemere, High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire; Keith Edward Charles Stokes (15), son of Mr and Mrs C. A. Stokes, The Croft, Clarence Road, Weston-super-Mare, Somerset; David M Jennings (10½), son of Lt. Col. G. W. D. Jennings, R. E., and Mrs Jennings of Budleigh Salterton, Devon; Graham Norman Letts (13) son of Mr and Mrs H. Norman Letts of West Common, Lindfield, Sussex. On 1st June 1943, nine others were still in hospital. Summary Five cricket games were going on and 200 people were watching and playing. House-master Rev. John Bernard Orchard, said he saw before the crash two aeroplanes circling the ground closer to the tree tops than he had ever seen before. The aircraft approached the playing field from different directions at different times. Dom Orchard saw the boys scattering on the banks as one of the planes approached and the boys would have been clearly visible to the pilots flying a hundred feet or more from the ground. Plane had passed but made a hairpin turn. Mr Wilshere for Mr Leeming says he only circled the field once that day. A question was asked – Are you quite sure he was over the field at all? Rev. Michael Benet Innes who was umpiring said he estimated the planes passing at about 30 to 40 feet on three or four occasions … “I took the number of one plane because I thought such low flying was distracting and dangerous.” Richard Kirkpatrick Hutton a schoolboy saw the planes circling the field, saying they crossed it more than once in direct lines, turned and came back. Commander A.F. Black, in control of a Royal Navy air station, said that in excellent visibility Sub-Lieutenant J. B. Leeming and Sub-Lieutenant A. C. McCracken took two sea Hurricanes on exercises. Both exercises were individual attack and follow-my-Ieader, with the instructor, Leeming, carrying out steep turns, dives, and "zooms," and the pupil, McCracken (who was killed), attempting to keep on the leader's tail. They should not have flown below 2,000ft. Downside was just outside the limited area permitted for the exercises. McCracken had eight months' experience of flying in Britain. Leeming, who had 500 hours' flying since 1941, was an experienced instructor. No technical defects had been found in the crashed plane. To have flown over the playing fields at less than 100ft., would have been a gross breach of regulations. The Coroner Mr M. Pullibank told the jury they had to decide whether Leeming could be held responsible for the actions of McCracken. Mark |
Sub Lt. J. B. Leeming
Further to my tragic summary of the Downside School crash.
I have found the Devonport Court Martial report released to the press for John Birch Leeming, an Instructor, who pleaded "Guilty" to three charges arising out of the aeroplane accident at Downside School, Somerset on May 15th 1943. Accused of:- 1. Flying outside a local training area 2. Flying at less than 2,000 ft. without authority or due cause and 3. Flying in the neighbourhood of Downside School in a manner likely to cause accident or annoyance to persons or damage to property. Leeming was an Instructor who was carrying out an exercise with Sub-Lieutenant A. C. McCracken, a New Zealander, in another aircraft. McCracken's aircraft crashed and he was killed. A "circumstantial" letter outlined the case for the prosecution stating:- the aircraft was 4 miles outside the limit of a local training area. While the cricket match was in progress he flew in a follow my leader exercise with A. C. McCracken a New Zealander at a height between 50 and 100 feet. His aircraft came over again and the second aircraft following hit the ground, striking the boys. The prosecution felt that there was enough evidence that Leeming in the leading aeroplane showed wilful disregard for Admiralty Fleet Orders relating to low flying. Leeming Leeming had become an instructor at the station on May 12 and immediately demanded a low flying area. He felt that low flying should be taught. No low flying area had yet been allocated, and meanwhile either instructors failed to give pupils low flying practice or broke the rules and hoped for the best. Leeming preferred to take the risk of being reported for low flying so that he might impart his knowledge to his pupils. Leeming had an extremely good flying record. He was a pupil who became an instructor and was required to take up an appointment for which he had insufficient experience. It was not he who was to blame. Captain M. S. Thomas described Leeming as a very keen and conscientious officer and a pupil of above average ability. Other Officers also spoke of Leeming's ability. He was sentenced to be dismissed his ship and severely reprimanded. |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
19 September 1944: a Coastal Command Liberator sank a Soviet submarine.
I am sure you have this recorded, but the following link, despite being Wikipedia, has more details than what I had read elsewhere (including AIR files number used as sources): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Fisanovich |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Thanks Mark and Laurent
I had notes relating to both incidents but not such detail. Excellent! Cheers Brian |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Brian,
From the 100th ID website (www.100thww2.org) this item under 898th AA Arty Bn (Automatic Weapons): "Neither the 898th nor the 100th had seen their last aerial “friendly fire” incidents, however. On 22 January and again a week later, Century Division positions around Petit-Réderching, Bining, Enchenberg, and Montbronn were subjected to strafing and even bombing attacks by P-47s and P-51s; Battery D was awarded official credit for shooting down one of a flight of four Mustangs which attacked 397th Infantry positions around Petit-Réderching on 29 January!" Mentioned village is near Bitche, NE France The division had been mistakenly under attack by USAAF fighters on several occasions earlier in the month (Jan 45) as well, especially during the first days of Operation Northwind (Vosges). Regards, Leendert |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Accounts from the ground of a friendly fire attack on 25 December 1944 by P-38s (39 GI's dead):
http://www.grandmenil.com/friendly-f...of-grandmenil/ |
Re: RAF Anson collision with BEA Dakota 19th Feb 1949 Exhall
Hello Brian
RAF Anson Collision 19 February 1949 at Exhall with BEA Dakota I am not sure if you have/want this aerial incident, for your incidents section? But found it in my local Nuneaton newspaper dated 22 April 1949. Exhall is between Coventry and the town of Bedworth in northern Warwickshire. I have not researched it yet. Regards Mark |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Hello,
I found this here in my routine KTB der Seekriegsleitung, Teil A, Bd. 53, reading: Quote:
Darius |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Hello,
sorry, but I have to correct my last posting: KTB der Seekriegsleitung, Teil A, Bd. 53, reading: Quote:
Darius |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Hi Darius
I've tried a translation but it doesn't make sense to me. Can you advise, please? Black Sea: ...In amending the notification of 26/1 the airstrike on South Pier Kerch is fdl Fehlwurf of its own aircraft instead of attack. Aircraft is done." Cheers Brian |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
The diary on the 26th listed the attack as being done by a friendly aircraft, the entry on the 27th corrects it by telling it was an enemy one (fdl being the short form of feindlich = enemy).
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Re: Friendly fire WWII
Thank you Laurent for the translation.
Darius |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Quote:
I would like to know the comments of our Russian friends on this one. |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
On 18 July 1942 the fighter of Leytenant Ivan G. Shemyakin of 873 IAP was hit by Flak during a combat mission and he had to force-land on friendly territory in the Nizhne-Soloninskaya area, but was then killed by his own troops that took him for an enemy pilot.
Source: http://allaces.ru/p/people.php?id=00000008082 |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
I thought it was high time this thread was made a sticky. I can't think why we didn't do it before it got to 64 pages!
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