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-   -   Friendly fire WWII (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=2670)

Laurent Rizzotti 23rd April 2013 10:16

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 
Hi Nick, it was a sticky at a time before activity of the thread went down.

Brian, I think you have a fold3 account now, here are some links on the USN War Diaries section describing friendly fire incidents. These reports are always written from the ship side and do not identify the aircraft involved, but are interesting anyway.

9 June 1944: several Allied aircraft shot down off Normandy by naval Allied AA fire
http://www.fold3.com/image/#276912467

21 June 1944: a PBM shot down by friendly fire off Marianas
http://www.fold3.com/image/#293478421

25 October 1944: a aircraft shot down by friendly AA fire off Leyte
http://www.fold3.com/image/#293478421

2 December 1944: a PT boat strafed by an Allied aircraft
http://www.fold3.com/image/#295371282

HGabor 9th May 2013 11:54

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 
On February 4, 1945 three La-5s fired 39. ORAP recce. Pe-2 at 5300 m over Dunaföldvár, Hungary. Fast speed bomber slightly escaped but observer, Lt. Anatolii Alekseevich Kovyazhin was killed by friendly bullets. Buried at Szabadszállás.

All planes 17 VA, 3rd Ukrainian Front.

Gabor

Darius 23rd May 2013 15:56

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 
Hello,

I have here the Information about a friendly-fire incident on 20.01.1944 off Norway.

Following the KTB Skl, about noon that day 8 torpedo aircraft attacked the german minelayer "Skagerrak" with his escorts and AP of 2 fighters and a Bv flying-boat. 3 attackers were shot down, the "Skagerrak" sank following torpedo hit.

In chapter about airwar, there is a notice, that the german CAP shot down two own airplanes.

Do you have any further data about this Action?

Thank you

Darius

Ota Jirovec 28th May 2013 12:10

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 
Hello,

One more case:

Uffz. Gabriel Tautscher of 9./JG 51 was demoted to the rank of Flieger after he has shot down by error the reconnaissance Ju 86 R of 1.(F)/100 (returning from the sortie to the Moscow area) near Vjazma on 9 February 1943. Apparently, Tautscher was not familiar with the recognition chart of a Ju 86 R (which was moreover reported as an enemy aircraft) and had experienced problems with icing of his windshield that further obstracted his view. Nevertheless, after his demotion Tautscher continued to add to his score, was promoted back to Unteroffizier and awarded the Deutsches Kreuz in Gold before being killed by a flak hit east of Osaritchi on 12 January 1944 (with at least 58 kills on his credit).

Source: Jagdfliegerverbände der Deutschen Luftwaffe Part 12/II by Prien et al., pages 72-73.

Ota

airfoiledagain 31st May 2013 00:20

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 
Hello:
I'm not clear whether you are interested in post-WWII friendly fire incidents, or if you might want to know the details surrounding a bizarre occurrence early in the Korean War, in which a US B-26 Invader attack bomber was nearly shot down (knowingly and intentionally) by a US F-82 (twin-Mustang) whose pilot for some reason suspected the B-26 of being flown by a North Korean spy.

Laurent Rizzotti 21st June 2013 10:16

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 
Hello Brian,

Just finished to study the case of the PBM of VP-16 shot down by US destroyers on 21 June 1944, signaled above, to include it on www.crashplace.de. Here is my final result, in case you're interested:

In the evening of 21 June 1944 US Navy Destroyer Divisions 92 (USS Boyd, Bradford, Brown and Cowell) and 104 were proceeding independently west of Marianas, about ten miles apart on parallel course, to rendezvous with a fueling group when at 2217 hrs radar contact was made with several unidentified aircraft, bearing 130°, distance 60 miles. The destroyers formed a column but at 2223 hrs the contact faded. At 2227 hrs another contact was made with one unidentified aircraft, bearing 055°, distance 30 miles.

At 2234, 2242, 2255, 2258 hrs the destroyers changed course to evade and give all ships clear firing bearing. Another radar contact made at 2241 hrs faded 5 minutes later. The closer unindetified aircraft was now orbiting close to the formation out of range, but then started a low level approach and at 2309 hrs it was at four miles, bearing 215° and closing. Permission to open fire was asked and granted if the plane approached within 10,000 yards. The plane continued its approach directly toward the division and fire was opened at 2310 hrs at about 8,000 yards, while the destroyer executed turn to avoid anticipated torpedo. All four destroyers fired, expending a total of 262 5’’ and 132 40mm shells and at 2312 hrs the aircraft was shot down by 15°06 N 139°20 E.

The Brown was sent to investigate crash. It found a wing float painted characteristic light and dark blue as US Navy planes. The crew attempted to get pontoon aboard for further identification but it proved too heavy to handle. The body of a man was reported sighted with a yellow life jacket similar to the one worn by Amerian aviators. An attempt was made to recover it but the ship was unable to find it again. A pilot aboard the destroyer saw a deflated rubber boat with C02 bottles and recoginzed it as US. A window curtain with spring roller marked in USA was picked up. Despite thorough search of area, no other identification material and no survivor was found. It was concluded that the aircraft had been a friendly PBM.

Earlier during the day the division had made contact with friendly patrol planes not showing IFF, and had been reminded at 1630 hrs that friendly submarines and search planes with IFF inoperative were in the area. This was reminded to the ships when the evening calls were made. A ship of DevDiv 104, USS Hunt, reported that plane’s motirs sounded familiar, and the Boyd was ordered to broadcast on all aircraft voice circuits "Any search plane investigating surface ships get away from the area because your IFF is not working", while Cowell reported hearing a test call on TBL. All ships of DesDiv 92 were asked if they had any indication that contact was firendly. All replied negative.

In DesDiv 92 report it was believed that the PBM thought DesDuvs 92 and 104 were enemy and was making an attack on DesDiv 92, but it is possible that he was investigating DesDiv 104 and was unaware of the presence of DesDiv 92. A message reporting that a search plane was investigating a radar contact was received in the Boyd at approximately the instant of opening fire.

The conclusion of the report was that in the situation described above the matter of self preservation demanded to DesDiv 92 to open fire: "This tragic indident is deeply regretted but it is felt that in the circumstances no alternative was open to Commander Destroyer Division 92 to act other than as he did."

The lost Mariner was from VP-16. This unit was operating from the open sea off the roadstead of Garapan Harbor, Saipan, since the 18th, being serviced by the ISS Ballard first and then the USS Pocomoke. Seven aircraft of this unit were flying night patrol operations this night and one, 16-P-13 (PBM-3D Buno 45216), did not return. His last transmission to the base was "Investigating suspicious vessel." His fate was unknow until the 23rd, when the report of the shooting down of a PBM by DesDiv 92 was received.

Crew (all missing):
Lt.Cmdr Harry R Flachsbarth, USNR (pilot)
Ens Lyman E. Benson, USNR
Ens Larsen G. Ruth, USN
ARM3c Cecil Hertford Wiggs, USNR
AMM3c Austin Earl Hoskins, USNR
AMM3c George Plant, USNR
AMM1c Robert Eugene Wise, USNR
ARM3c James Terry Greenfield, USNR
S1c Lee Roy Douglas, USNR
AMM3c Alexander Hilton,Jr.
AMM3 Ray R Moorman, USN (not in VP-16 war diary, but in all other sources)
AOM3c Wallace Blackwell Grant, USNR

All are commemorated on the Tablets of the Missing at Manila American Cemetery, Philippines.

Quite a great deal of trouble was experienced by VP-16 with IFF equipment during the first 10 days of operations at Saipan because of the following reasons:
(a) Rough water take-offs and landings with the heavy loads on the open sea on the leeward side of Saipan undoubtedly jarred the IFF equipement out of adjustment.
(b) the IFF equipement had apparently not been properly serviced by Hedron, Fleet Air Wing Two, at Kaneoke Bay, T. H.
(c) Although the proper equipment for testing and checking the IFF was on board the USS Pocomoke, it had not been set up for use and no one on board was qualikied to set it up. This was overcome when ACRT Parry arrived on board and set up a test bench for IFF. The delay on his arrival coupled with the failure to provide similarly qualified people in the PATSU, was the direct cause of the loss of the above crew.

Source:
COMDESDIV 92, Report of shooting down of friendly aircraft on 6/21/44, West of Marianas (http://www.fold3.com/image/277072603/#277072467/)
VP-16 War Diary, June 1944 (http://www.fold3.com/image/279790195/#279790176/)
http://www.vpnavy.com/vp16_mishap.html
"The fighting flying boat: a history of the Martin PBM Mariner", by Richard Alden Hoffman. ISBN 1-59114-375-6
http://www.abmc.gov/search/wwii.php
http://wikimapia.org/#lang=fr&lat=15...139.333333&z=6

By the way by reading VP-16 war diary I discovered another case of friendly fire, on 19 June 1944 a PBM of this unit was attacked by USN fighters. It was not lost but one crew was fatally wounded. See: http://www.fold3.com/image/279790195/#279790183/.

Best regards

Brian 21st June 2013 22:48

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 
Hi guys

Many thanks for the continuing accounts of friendly fire incidents - I continue to be amazed by the number of such incidents.

Laurent - I'm forever in your debt.

Airfoiledagain - please send more details.

Gabor, Darius, Ota - many thanks indeed.

Great stuff, keep it coming!

Brian

Juha 23rd June 2013 19:29

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Darius (Post 166907)
Hello,

I have here the Information about a friendly-fire incident on 20.01.1944 off Norway.

Following the KTB Skl, about noon that day 8 torpedo aircraft attacked the german minelayer "Skagerrak" with his escorts and AP of 2 fighters and a Bv flying-boat. 3 attackers were shot down, the "Skagerrak" sank following torpedo hit.

In chapter about airwar, there is a notice, that the german CAP shot down two own airplanes.

Do you have any further data about this Action?

Thank you

Darius

Attackers were 4 Torbeaus and 4 escort Beaus from 489 Sqn (RNZAF), none were lost only a couple planes were hit by the AA. One can find a bit more info e.g. from Björn Hafsten's et al Flyalarm. Luftkrigen over Norge 1939 - 1945 (1991) p. 189.

Juha

Juha 11th September 2013 23:51

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 
Hello Brian
I cannot remember, if I have given this before but anyway
LW_tappiot 1944-06-20 c. 07.00 Ju 87D-5 S7+JL WNr. 131926 3./SG 3 NN pilot bo unhurt, Krausse, Walter Gefr. WO/AG bo slightly inj. Viipuri/Vyborg Shot down by Finnish AA

Juha


Brian 16th September 2013 23:54

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 
Hi Juha

Many thanks.

Cheers
Brian

AndreasB 24th September 2013 21:49

Re: Low Flying Incident killing 10 boys 15th May 1943
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Observer1940 (Post 158513)
Inquest
Resumed Inquest at the Downside School Gymnasium 1st June 1943 - Plane Crash at Downside School Playing Ground on May 15th 1943 during a Cricket Match, killing nine of the boy spectators.


Boys were;
Hugh Michael Dearlove (14), son of Group Captain Dearlove killed early in the war and Mrs C. M. Dearlove,

Could anyone confirm if H.M.Dearlove was the son of Group Captain Dearlove who was killed in a FF incident at Gialo Oasis on 30 November 1941 when the Blenheim he was travelling in was shot down by Bofors of 6 LAA Battery R.A.?

Many thanks in advance.

All the best

Andreas

Brian 25th September 2013 18:11

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 
Yes, Andreas, that is correct

Cheers
Brian

Gunther 29th October 2013 21:04

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 
One of the best studies of friendly fire I know of is:

http://usacac.army.mil/cac2/cgsc/car...bs/shrader.pdf

Rather than Fratricide, Maj. Shrader used Amicide. He provides historical models showing that typically friendly fire accounted for -2% of casualties in ground ops but could reach 30+ % in bombing/strafing friendlies.

There have been numerous "Blue on Blue" incidents in air combat, perhaps most notably when von Richthofen probably was WIA by a wingman in July '17. We can only guess at what friendly fire must've been like in Bomber Command and the Nachtjagd...

Nick Hector 7th November 2013 00:27

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 
This is getting to be a long thread, and I must confess to not yet having found the time to read it in its entirety so I apologise if these two have already been mentioned:

1) 452 sqn RAAF, 13.10.41 (Circus 108A).

Bluey Truscott shot at a “German” in his parachute. Quoting the American Historian Donald Caldwell’s history of JG 26: No. 452 Squadron’s P/O “Bluey” Truscott shot at a parachutist, but the action met with the disapproval of his fellow Australian pilots, and it was apparently not repeated. Ironically, no German pilot bailed out on this day, and Truscott’s target was probably Allied.”
The Truscott biography noted that said target took no evasive action and 452 sqn lost a pilot (SGT E P “Happy” Jackson, Spitfire AB852) on his first mission.

2) I have always strongly suspected that Paddy Finucane's kill of 11.7.41 was actually Spitfire II P7562 of Sgt. Alex C Roberts. The reasons being that firstly, Finucane claimed a 'lone Bf109 that was attacking the formation' and secondly, Roberts got separated from the formation at some point and was shot down trying to rejoin it. Or in other words, exactly when he could have given the impression that he was a 'lone Bf109 attacking the formation'...

Cheers
Nick

Rainer 29th November 2013 15:23

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 
Can someone identify the aircraft shot down in the following friendly fire incident?

At 1125 hours on 19 August 1942, the US tanker GULF OF MEXICO was en route in the Bristol Channel when a single low flying twin-engine bomber appeared out of low clouds from ahead about 1 mile west of Scarweather Light. The aircraft looked like a Ju 88 and did not fire recognition signals, so the order was given to open fire at 1000 yards in accordance with CAMSI instructions to fire at any plane approaching within 1500 yards when east of 36°W. Recieving several hits from three Oerlikon guns the aircraft caught fire and crashed into the sea about 1 mile off the starboard quarter. When the tanker arrived at Milford Haven the next day, they were told that they had downed a British aircraft.

Observer1940 29th November 2013 15:28

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 
Hello Brian

Not sure if you have this one or not, but came across the incident when searching for something else in the Nottingham Evening Post Monday 24th June 1940. I have not checked the spelling on BMD.

"SOLDIER ACCIDENTALLY SHOT"
"Tragedy During Unloading Of Rifle"

"Leslie Ronald Willsher, 19, a soldier, was accidentally shot when a rifle which was being unloaded by another soldier went off while he was on duty in Essex, yesterday."

"A doctor was called, but Willsher, whose home address was Thorncliffe-road, Southall, was dead."

Regards Mark

Brian 29th November 2013 15:55

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 
Many thanks guys

Most interesting.

Cheers
Brian

flughund 29th November 2013 17:27

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 
Wellington HX482 - http://www.lostaircraft.com/database...wentry&e=29178

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg...&GRid=11357038

"Ross was flying as aircrew in an RAF 172 Squadron Wellington VIII 'Leigh Light' bomber, registration HX482 and assigned to Coastal Command and tasked with the identification and destruction of enemy submarines. The aircraft was piloted by my mother's fiancé F/O Gordon Jamieson and on that day was flying an air test and demonstration flight with 8 people on board, including a U.S.Army Air Force officer and one of her ground crew. This was not an offensive mission and the aircraft was unarmed apart from her gun turrets. Flying over Swansea Bay, South Wales in broad daylight and in good visibility, the aircraft was cruising across the bay when she was attacked by anti-aircraft gunners on an American ship, reported as the USS or SS 'Gulf of Mexico. The Wellington was at relatively low level but not in an attacking stance, but was nevertheless mistaken for an enemy aircraft and shot down into the bay. All on board were killed as they had no time to bale out. The wreck remains in Swansea Bay and is protected by UK Government legislation from any interference, although I understand all the crew were recovered from the sea in the following days and buried separately in accordance with family wishes. Gordon is buried at Canford in Bristol. Hope this can give you more closure." (by Stuart Dymond, 4 Sep 2013).

http://www.coflein.gov.uk/en/site/51...ON+VIII+HX482/

AndreasB 29th November 2013 23:49

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian (Post 172836)
Yes, Andreas, that is correct

Cheers
Brian

Many thanks Brian. That is very tragic.

All the best

Andreas

ahafan 2nd December 2013 01:00

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rainer (Post 175964)
Can someone identify the aircraft shot down in the following friendly fire incident?

At 1125 hours on 19 August 1942, the US tanker GULF OF MEXICO was en route in the Bristol Channel when a single low flying twin-engine bomber appeared out of low clouds from ahead about 1 mile west of Scarweather Light. The aircraft looked like a Ju 88 and did not fire recognition signals, so the order was given to open fire at 1000 yards in accordance with CAMSI instructions to fire at any plane approaching within 1500 yards when east of 36°W. Recieving several hits from three Oerlikon guns the aircraft caught fire and crashed into the sea about 1 mile off the starboard quarter. When the tanker arrived at Milford Haven the next day, they were told that they had downed a British aircraft.

A wellington bomber: was shot down off Milfred Haven by a Tanker ship
sharon

Rainer 2nd December 2013 11:14

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 
Thanks for the identification of the aircraft shot down by GULF OF MEXICO.

Another similar incident happened on 6 June 1942 in the Indian Ocean:
The Norwegian motor merchant INDRA was en route northeast of Ceylon when an aircraft circled the ship several times. As it began to dive towards the ship her AA gunners downed the aircraft. Apparently it was a British Swordfish aircraft (814 Sqn FAA, pilot SubLt Andrew Moore, RNVR), all three crew members were lost.

Observer1940 8th December 2013 13:18

Re: Friendly fire WWII files mainly 1940 covered
 
Hello Brian

I have just finished a list, on one list, some files I probably have already mentioned.

AIR 2/3008 Inter-Service Committee on Recognition of Aircraft. 01 January 1939 - 31 December 1940 (some late 1940 references I think)

AIR 14/853 Erroneous attack on British submarines by aircraft of No 83 Squadron operating from Lossiemouth March 1940 Original Reference IIH/241/3/865 BC/S23848

AIR 14/390 Incidents between aircraft and A.A. defences (Home): Reports regarding unidentified aircraft. 01 Aug 1940 - 31 Oct 1940 Original Reference BC/S 22583

AIR 14/389 Incidents between No. 1 Group aircraft and A.A. defences (Home). 01 July 1941 - 31 August 1941 Original Reference BC/S 22583

AIR 14/272 Routeing of bombers: reports on investigation into incident with fighters in the Firth of Forth 21st December 1939 [Original AHB / Bomber Command reference IIH/241/3/847 (BC/S23366)]

AIR 14/273 Incident with Fighters in Firth of Forth 21 Dec 1939 Proceedings of Court of Inquiry (BC/S 23366/1)

AIR 16/11 A. A. fire against friendly aircraft. 01 Oct 1939 to 31 Oct 1940

AIR 16/12 Reports of Naval A. A. fire against friendly aircraft. 01 October 1939 - 31 December 1940

AIR 16/207 Attacks by fighters on friendly aircraft: Policy of courts of enquiry and court martial 1939 Nov to 1940 February. Original Reference HCTD/S/281

AIR 16/355 Interception of enemy by aircraft not under Fighter Command control. 01 August 1940 - 30 November 1941 Original File Reference FC/S20644 [INCLUDES SOME FRIENDLY INCIDENTS]

AIR 20/2217 DIRECTORATE-GENERAL OF ORGANISATION. Aircraft shot down or damaged by our own defences. 01 September 1937 - 30 June 1945 AHB Reference VE/32 [FILE SEEMS INCOMPLETE] mainly later 1940 onward A.A. cases (one sentence per case) with Accident file number (still withheld if they were kept)

AIR 20/2285 to AIR 20/2289 Beaufighter and Other Friendly Fire Attacks and Incidents in 1941

AIR 20/4289 (GENERAL). Rules for opening fire by fighters over the sea at night. 01 Mar 1940 - 30 Nov 1940 [POLICY but has later reference to the Firth of Forth incident]

AIR 35/87 Reports of firing on friendly aircraft by allied A.A. defences. 01 Jan 1940 to 31 Dec 1940

AIR 2/9279 Attack by aircraft of 86 Squadron on Russian submarine: Court of Inquiry. 1 Jan 1944 - 31 Dec 1944

Also a search of “Recognition” as well as “Identification” might yield some files, which might have the odd incident mentioned?

ADM 1/16390 Extracts from minutes of Board of Enquiry into loss of Soviet submarine B1. 01 Jan 1944 - 31 Dec 1944

Original File References quoted by Captain Roskill’s War at Sea HMSO 1954 an official history:-
Admty L.D. 01892/41 - NOT FOUND to date
A.T. 1047/21/2/41 - NOT FOUND to date
S.L. Papers Vol. 7, File 9.
Some incidents found in ADM 205/7 Case file 00261 Volume 7 First Sea Lord’s Records, but not sure if this holds original File 9.

ADM 178/248 Various incidents involving the shooting at Allied aircraft by British personnel 1940 to 1941 (Admiralty 332/41)
[Mainly seems to deal with the shooting down of a Vichy official and possibly some foreign allied a/c]

ADM 1/11917 DEFENCES - UNITED KINGDOM (32): Reports of R.A.F. aircraft being fired on by British land and sea anti-aircraft defences 1941 to 1942 Admiralty 481/42

Other incidents at the UK Coast and at Sea in Naval War History Case volumes and Policy
Also ADM 116 and ADM 199 (Naval ‘War History Case’ volumes) have incidents recorded by R.N. convoys etc., and by UK Defences some can be found first, listed in the huge Digests in ADM 12 along with the original Naval file numbers and/or War History Case volume numbers.

Naval Filing Code 32 was UK Defence
Naval Filing Code 90 was Aviation

To find the odd cases listed amongst the Digests (Naval Indexes in huge heavy volumes), the Digest volumes for 1940 covering these codes 32 (UK Defence) and 90 (Aviation) are:-

ADM 12/1746 covering the code for UK (Home) Defences (32) 1939 to 1940 and
ADM 12/1752 covering the code for Aviation (90) 1939 to 1940.

These ADM 12 files give you a brief description with the original Navy file reference, but some incidents recorded in ADM 12 are very difficult to find in the history volumes!

Regards Mark

Brian 13th December 2013 11:45

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 
Many thanks, Mark

Delving into all these files will keep me busy during my next few visits to TNA!

Cheers
Brian

ahafan 29th January 2014 18:21

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian (Post 176674)
Many thanks, Mark

Delving into all these files will keep me busy during my next few visits to TNA!

Cheers
Brian

u do some great work brian..;)
sharon

NUPPOL 20th February 2014 01:32

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 
Another Friendly fire at http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...t=36509&page=2

Observer1940 14th March 2014 21:03

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 
Hello Brian

A note indicated that the following Whitley and Blenheim accidents were possibly connected (firing / incident?):-

Whitley V, N1367 of 77 Squadron Operating from Driffield landed in a field at Fecamp 3rd January 1940 F/Lt B. S.Tomlin Captain and F/O T. H. Parrott Pilot with "E.F." "L17" being Engine failure on Accident Card. Other crew were R. S. or R. E. Charlton, H. Perry and R. H. Erickson.

An Air Ministry Acc Branch note found for Whitley N1367 accident was in the file of Blenheim L8399 of 604 Squadron Captain Sgt A. W. Woolley with Blenheim L8399 place of accident Thornwood Common, Epping on 3rd January 1940. Other crew were H. J. Crump and A Penn.

I don't have the AM1180 for the Blenheim yet, perhaps a check of both the Squadron and Station ORBs might reveal more?

A 1940 online reference of the Blenheim only states:-
"The New Year got off to a good start with Sergeant Arthur Woolley suffering engine failure and having to force-land Blenheim L8399 in the vicinity of Epping on 3rd January."

Mark

GuerraCivil 18th August 2014 14:15

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 
I have read, that during the Winter/Continuation War Finnish Air Force planes faced very often "friendly" AA fire. As there were much more Soviet airplanes in air, the Finnish AA usually shot everything that flew on the sky. During the Winter War at least one Finnish fighter was shot down by Finnish AA and the pilot was killed (IIRC).

However, the Barking Creek Incident in 1939 as well as the Bodenplatte fiasco in 1945 are in my opinion the two outstanding "classics" when it comes to "friendly" fire in WW2.

Brian 18th August 2014 18:18

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 
Hi GuerraCivil

Regarding the Battle of Barking Creek, you will find my account in 'Blue on Blue' Volume One. Also an account of Finnish War errors.

Would you like a copy?

Cheers
Brian

GuerraCivil 20th August 2014 14:43

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 
What is the price of the book?
Does the book cover Spanish Civil War, which is of my special interest?

Brian 20th August 2014 19:34

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 
Hi

Brief mention of Spanish Civil War incidents in Volume One.

£10.00 plus postage.

Cheers
Brian

Dave Richardson 6th September 2014 23:52

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 
Hi Brian

Here's a possible friendly fire incident for you. On the morning of 21/08/1942 Stirling bomber R9329 from 149 Squadron crashed in Devon returning from a mining op in the Gironde Estuary. All the crew were killed, my uncle was the front gunner. During my research I'm becoming convinced that the aircraft was fired on by the Plymouth AA guns. The crash site is about 3 miles NE of Plymouth. The following information leads me to believe it was a "friendly fire incident":

· In his book The Stirling Bomber by M.J.F. Bowyer records that the aircraft was "shot down by British A.A. guns"

· I have a scan of a letter from the National Archives to another of my uncles from 1980 (he was also researching the crash in pre-internet days), which has a note typed at the bottom ".. over Plymouth it was hit by anti-aircraft fire causing it to crash near the village of Cornwood"

· The RAF Air Historical Branch have confirmed that from the Form F765c "The aircraft was returning from a mining operation and from the accounts of the other aircraft in the area it is likely that this was the one heavily engaged by to ground defences and probably damaged. Return would therefore be made at low level." They went on to say that their records make no reference to British AA guns being involved.

· The location of the crash site suggests that the aircraft will have flown over Plymouth. I've spoken to to an eyewitness of the crash, who now is quite elderly but clearly remembers the aircraft flying up the valley on fire.

I don't know where to look now to try and get some confirmation one way or the other. Any thoughts?

Dave

Brian 7th September 2014 16:43

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 
Hi Dave

Your evidence already looks fairly conclusive to me. However, have you consulted the Squadron's ORB - which may contain further information?

Have you a complete crew list by any chance?

Cheers
Brian

Dave Richardson 7th September 2014 22:26

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 
Hi Brian

Yes, I got the Squadron ORB but it makes no reference to what we now call friendly fire. I've emailed the National Archives to see if they can shed any light on the comment on the bottom of the letter my uncle received. I don't know if there would have been an inquest with the airmen dying in England so I've emailed the Plymouth Archives office to see if they can help on that score. I'll keep you posted. The crew was:

Pilot Officer Geoffrey Ernest Robertson, age 25
Sergeant Dudley Howard Harris, age 20
Sergeant Denis Roy Simpson, age 26
Sergeant Peter Edward James Jenkins, age 22
Sergeant Lawrence Henry Nicholson, age 21
Sergeant Frank Sidney Clarke, age 25
Sergeant Cecil Jacques Bond, age 19


I've produced a booklet of remembrance for the crew which the Mildenhall Register have kindly put on their website. It can be found here:


http://www.mildenhallregister.stirli...memberance.pdf


Cheers
Dave


Laurent Rizzotti 2nd October 2014 16:10

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 
From the history of 1st Light AA Regiment:
"On 18th December 1941 - A Troop attacked by 15 Hurricanes and the guns had to open fire in self protection and one plane was brought down and on another occasion C Troop was attacked by 24 Tomohawks and 2 men were killed. Such was the confusion of battle."

Source:
http://www.desertrats.org.uk/orgartillery.htm

The book "Mediterranean Air War", vol 1, had for this day one loss without details in the text:
260 Sqn Hurricane shot down by Flak; Plt Off Cidman returned safely

One of the killed might have been Gunner James Bollard, killed the same day and commemorated on the El Alamein memorial. I have not found another victim for the regiment this day.


Brian 2nd October 2014 18:13

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 
Hi Laurent

I'm sure it was Plt Off (John) Gidman of 260 Squadron, but I haven't got my records to hand.

Cheers
Brian

Laurent Rizzotti 2nd October 2014 20:02

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 
Thanks for the confirmation Brian.

Any planning for the continuation of the Blue on Blue series ?

Brian 5th October 2014 19:07

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 
Hi Laurent

Yes, the 'Blue on Blue' series is progressing - with this type of subject one never knows when to draw a line!

I'm ever hopeful, so keep watching!!

Cheers
Brian

Laurent Rizzotti 10th October 2014 13:08

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 
A SBD of USN bombing Marine on Gavutu Island on 7 August 1942:
http://missingmarines.com/2012/04/17...ond-leon-bray/

A Marine SBD shot down by US ships off Guadalcanal on 18 September 1942:
http://missingmarines.com/2013/04/19...d-evan-thomas/

Leendert 10th October 2014 13:25

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 
Laurent,

A destroyer (DE-420) was named after Lt. Leland E. Thomas.

Interestingly the accompanying bio on Lt Thomas on history.navy.mil gives this version surrounding the circumstances of his death: Lieutenant Thomas was killed in action at Guadalcanal, Solomon Islands, 18 September 1942 while launching an aggressive attack on enemy warships.

See http://www.history.navy.mil/danfs/l5...d_e_thomas.htm

Regards,

Leendert

Laurent Rizzotti 10th October 2014 15:46

Re: Friendly fire WWII
 
That is how the official story is written. By the way the MAG-23 War Diary confirms the loss to friendly fire, and there was no action this day against the enemy by SBDs from Guadalcanal.
http://www.fold3.com/image/279777731/


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