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Re: Friendly fire WWII
Hi Brian & Guys
Small contribution regarding Royal Yugoslav AF Cheers Aleks Friendly fire – Royal Yugoslav Air Force, April 1941 6 April 1941 - Lockheed Electra YU-S??, Transportation group. Attacked by Messerschmit 109E from 2.Fighter Regiment (2.LP) in central Serbia. Messerschmitt pilot recognized Yugoslav markings and abort attack. Electra was undamaged. 6 April 1941 – Meserschmitt Bf 109E-3 unknown s/n, 2.Fighter Regiment (2.LP). Damaged in combat with Germans over Belgrade try to land at Zemun airfield. Shot down by airfield AA guns. Pilot managed to jump at low attitude, seriously burned. 6 April 1941 – Bristol Blenheim Mk.I 3528, 11. Independent Long Range Recce group (11.SGDI). Shot by Yugoslav AA guns from Fruška Gora Mountain. Blenheim explode during force landing. Crew of three perished: Lt Slavko Zelenika, nvtč Todor Radović and Sgt Blagoje Bakić. 6 April 1941 – Bristol Blenheim, unknown s/n, 1.Bomber Regiment (1.BP). Shot by Yugoslav AA guns over Avala Mountain near Belgrade. Only slightly damaged. 7 April 1941 – Bristol Blenheim Mk.I unknown s/n, 8.Bomber Regiment (8.BP). Shot by Yugoslav AA guns near airfield Novi Sad. Slightly damaged. 7 April 1941 – S.79 „black 12“ unknown s/n, 81.Independent Bomber group (81.SBG). Shot by Royal Yugoslav fleet from Boka Kotorska bay. Crash landed, crew unhurt. 7 April 1941 – Lockheed Electra YU-SBD, Transportation group. Shot by British ships from Preveze harbor in Greece. Crash landed, crew and passengers unhurt. 7 April 1941 – Fieseler Fi156 Storch 1.Recce group. Shot by Yugoslav AA guns over Novi Sad. Wounded pilot land near railway station. On 8 April another pilot was shot by same AA battery. He returned back with 17 shots in plane. 9 April 1941 – Hawker Fury Mk.II unknown s/n, 5.Fighter Regiment (5.LP). Shot down by Yugoslav AA guns near Kraljevo. Pilot jumped, only slightly injured. 9 April 1941 – Rogožarski PVT, unknown s/n, 5.Fighter Regiment (5.LP). Shot down by Yugoslav ground fire near Dulane village. Captain Otokar Sep died in crash. 9 April 1941 – Hawker Fury MK.II, unknown s/n, 5.Fighter Regiment (5.LP). Shot by Yugoslav ground fire near Dulane village. Pilot crash landed near Ćićevac in central Serbia, slightly wounded. 9 April 1941 – Potez 25, unknown s/n, 7.Recce group. Shot by Yugoslav AA guns while landing at Divci airfield near Valjevo. Landing gear collapsed, pilot unhurt. 9 April 1941 – Fieseler Fi156 Storch, unknown s/n, 7.Recce group. Shot by Yugoslav AA guns near Smederevska Palanka. Crash landed. Crew of two unhurt. 10 April 1941 – Potez 25, unknown s/n, 606.Training Escadrille (606.TE). Shot by Yugoslav AA guns near Slavonski Brod. Force landed. Pilot unhurt, mechanic slightly injured. 10 April 1941 – Messerschmitt Bf 110C, Test group (OG). Shot by Yugoslav ground fire while landing at Radinci airfield. Hidraulic pump damaged, pilot manage to land. 10 April 1941 – Potez 25, unknown s/n, 609.Escadrille (609.E). Shot down by Yugoslav AA guns near Čačak in western Serbia. Pilot Lt Ilija Kandić and observer Lt Josip Novaković died in crash. 10 april 1941 – Bücker Bü 131D, unknown s/n, 7.Bomber Regiment (7.BP). Shot down by Yugoslav AA guns near Čačak in western Serbia. Pilot Sgt Alojz Stražišar and mechanic Sgt Zdravko Berisavljević died. 11 April 1941 – S.79 unknown s/n, 7.Bomber Regiment. Shot down by Yugoslav AA guns over Igman Mountain near Sarajevo. Seven Yugoslav aviators perished: 2Lt Miodrag Djordjević, Sgt Branko Tomić, 2Lt Branko Mirić, 2Lt Miodrag Nikolić, 2Lt Aleksandar Hristić, Sgt Vojislav Mećikućić and unknown airmen. 11 April 1941 – Bristol Blenheim Mk.I 3535, 1.Bomber Regiment (1.BP). Shot by British ships from Preveze harbor in Greece. Crash landed near Ioannina, crew of two unhurt. 12 April 1941 – Three Dorniers Do17K from 3.Bomber Regiment (3.BP) bombed own troops near Sokolac in Bosnia. Few wounded soldiers on the ground. No one killed. 15 April 1941 – Hawker Hurricane Mk.I 2337, 2.Fighter Regiment (2.LP). Shot by Yugoslav S.79 gunner during escort to target in Albania. Hurricane slightly damaged landed at Kapino Polje airfield. 15 April 1941 – Dornier Do17K 3348, 3.Bomber Regiment (3.BP). Shot by Australian troops while landing at Menidi airfield. Dornier only slightely damaged. 16 April 1941 – S.79 „white 12“ unknown s/n, 7.Bomber Regiment (7.BP) shot by British ships from Preveze harbor in Greece. Crash landed, some of crew and passengers badly hurt. Minister Marko Daković died shortly after. All the Best Aleks |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Many thanks Aleks
Your 'small' contribution is in fact a major contribution! Excellent Cheers Brian |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Not a new case, but an interesting note from the ORB of 609 Sqn RAF, on 5 April 1941:
"In afternoon Squadron subjected to a recognition test at Station Intelligence Office, won by F/O Bisdee and P/O Hill (the C.O., who took the examination later, cheated by naming a captured Sunderland as one of the types of German 4 engined aircraft, and was disqualified). N.B. Britain has so many new types of bombers, some American, that recognition is at present rather a preoccupation of the authorities. 25 friendly bombers are said to have been shot down by our fighters last month, which is more than the Germans accounted for." 25 RAF Bombers shot down by friendly fire in March 1941, I hope it was exagerated ! |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Some friendly fire cases by Red Army Air Force (Soviets) during Winter War against Finland 1939-1940:
49 IAP (49th Fighter Aviation Regiment): On 6.12.1939 the unit opened its air victory record when four of its I-16 fighters attacked an enemy flying boat. The enemy plane went down in flames, only one parachute. One of I-16 pilots, I.P. Murazonav was hit by returnfire of enemy. In reality the downed plane was Soviet MBR-2 of Ladoga flotilla and only lieutnant Petrov of its crew managed to bail out although he was wounded, all three other crewmen were killed. The tragic incident was investigated and it showed that the flight of MBR-2 was not informed to 8th Air Army (in which 49 IAP belonged) and also that many Red Army Air Force pilots were unable to identify Soviet naval planes. On 1.1.1940 was again a bad day for 49 IAP. Lieutnant Gluhin attacked twin engined enemy bomber which he probably thought to be a Finnish Blenheim. However, it was a SB bomber of 18 SBAP and all of its crew was killed. 7 IAP (7th Fighter Aviation Regiment): On 25.12.1939 one I-16 fighter of 7 IAP spotted an enemy Bulldog biplane and shot it down. However the plane was in reality a I-15 bis plane of the same 7 IAP. The I-15 bis pilot Pavel Khutakov managed to bail out successfully. This saved him for brilliant military career. Pavel Khutakov was the Commander-in-Chief and Chief Air Marshall of Soviet Air Force in 1969-1984. |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Many thanks GC
Excellent gen. Cheers Brian |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Another naval related friendly fire incident:
The convoy WS-21 left the Clyde on 29 July 1942 with 19 troop transport and a strong escort of destroyers and cruisers bound for Freetown. At 08.55 hours on 31 July the Sunderland W4025 of 201 Squadron RAF took off from Lough Erne to escort this convoy northwest of Ireland. However, when it arrived over the convoy in very low visibility one of the ships* shot down the Sunderland in position 55°23N, 14°13W at 10.25 hours. HMS LEDBURY picked up the sole survivor (Sgt Wheatley). The following crew members were lost: F/Lt James Robert Traill, RAF F/Lt Walter Harry Wakefield, RAF P/O John Allen, RAF F/Sgt James Andrew Collins, RAF F/Sgt Maurice John Tomley, RAF Sgt William Bluck, RAF Sgt Clifford Gurney Fort, RAAF Sgt John Robert Goodings, RAF Sgt Vivian Lewis, RAAF Sgt Harry Scarce, RAF Sgt Norman Williams, RAF *It is often stated that HMS HAWKINS shot down the Sunderland, but the cruiser was in command of the escorts and only reported the incident to the Admiralty without identifying which ship fired at the aircraft. |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Hello,
Brian, I guess you have already this case: the Catalina 202/K shot down by merchant ship(s) of convoy KMS-3 on 20 November 1942, but the link below is providing extensive details: http://www.202-sqn-assoc.co.uk/files/friendly_fire.pdf But the story gives not the serial of the Catalina, so if anybody has it I will be interested. |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Hello,
I have not seen it on this thread. On 11 September 1943, the ORB of 93 Sqn RAF recorded the following: "Patrol over PEACHES. On landing at strip N.8505 (on orders from controller) American flak opened up on our aircraft which were in circuit, with wheels and flaps down. S/L Macdonald was hit in the tail and crashed, being killed. Sgt Baxter was hit, and crash landed unhurt. Other aircraft were damaged, but managed to land. After refuelling 6 A/C airborne 1610-1655 hrs, returning to base. One A/C was late in starting back, and has not yet returned. The pilot (F/S. Andrews) was heard to say he was airborne, but there has been no further news of him." http://www.danishww2pilots.dk/sorties.php?id=1431 My guess is that the shot down Spitfire was EF674, also listed there: http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...?t=2670&page=8 EF674 VcT West M50 8MU 14-5-43 82MU 4-6-43 SS707 10-6-43 Casablanca 29-6-43 shot down by US AA fire on landing approach Sala Italy 11-9-43 |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
FP 153 20 November 1942
www.202-sqn-assoc.co.uk/files/Autumn-2005.pdf |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Excellent information, guys.
And I'm certain it's only the tip of the iceberg! Cheers Brian |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Hi,
very fine Information about the convoy vs aircraft incidents. I have here to add this one red-on-red accident to the forumlist (hoping, this wasn´t told here before). Source: DEFE 3/835, ZIP/ZTPI 3353: Quote:
Darius |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Many thanks, Darius
Great stuff. Very much appreciated. Cheers Brian |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
From 57th FG history:
MACR 3990 24-MAR-44, Cover flight of 4 P-47s attacked by Spitfire (Mk 8 ? ) bringing down one P-47 (42-75636) and pilot Lt. Coughlin perished. 3 miles west of Tiber River. |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
48 cases of friendly fire (from the air and from ships) against US submarines in the Pacific:
http://www.subsowespac.org/the-patro...ncidents.shtml |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Hi Laurent
I can only say 'WOW'!! Great stuff - many thanks! Cheers Brian |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Quote:
Going through the paperwork sent to the family back in 1940 and my Grandfather's brother has written to the RAF Records Office to discover more about the circumstances, relating to the loss of his brother Sgt Claude L. G. Hood. The letter acknowledgement from the RAF Records Office regarding the Whitley of Captain Stenhouse, has been sent with the Service Number reference of another Airman (not one of the Whitley crew), saying that they will get the Squadron to respond direct. Shortly afterward, a letter arrives, from 77 Squadron, RAF Topcliffe signed by F/Lt. D Goudie (or F/Lt. O Goudie), about hitting a balloon cable. Fire in Air. The term 'fire on impact' does not always mean when hitting the ground, in other accidents impact means the collision with trees, cable etc. Therefore, 'Fire in Air' suggests on fire before impact with the cable. Also locally although they knew a balloon collision was involved, locals were told Whitley P5044 had been hit by enemy action and the daughter of the adjacent house observed events after the crash. One crew member is recorded differently in The Times Casualty List. However, a check of the files in AIR 14 indicates that none of the No. 4 Group 22 Whitleys were lost due to enemy action on that Op. The No. 4 Group ORB only refers to a friendly fire incident. This accident is also one of the so called balloon collisions, which does not have a surviving Balloon Centre & Balloon Command written report in the files. Anyway, regarding this letter being sent to our family later in 1940, off the file of another RAF Serviceman's reference, I have traced this number (and confirmed using AIR 78) to another pilot. Research is continuing. Regards Mark |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Hello,
no time for searching ;-) KTB Skl for 23.05.1944 Quote:
Greetings Darius |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
I am trying to find information about a friendly fire incident during which my late father's C.O. was killed, maybe someone could help.
He was; Christopher James Croasdale Bowen, B. 1915 New Zealand. Major, 612 F.S. R.E. 11th Armoured Division, 1941-44 KIA 1.9.44 Harbarcq, France. From CWGC; BOWEN, CHRISTOPHER JAMES CROASDAILE Rank: Major. Service No: 63533. Date of Death: 01/09/1944. Age: 29. Regiment/Service: Royal Engineers Offr. Cdg. 612 Field Sqn. Grave Reference: Plot 4. Row AA. Grave 1. Cemetery: AUBIGNY COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION. Additional Information:B.A. (Cantab.). Son of Charles Henry Croasdaile Bowen and of Frances Sybil Bowen (nee Danson), of Selborne, Hampshire; husband of Helen Florence Anderton Bowen (nee Lyon), of Selborne. The entry for the Field Squadron War Diary for 1.9.44 reads; Harbarcq. 1.9.1944. 1900 hrs (approx.) Maj. Bowen set out for Div. H.Q.to visit C.R.E. at Aubigny 3408 en route his Jeep was attacked by Br. fighter aircraft. Maj. Bowen was killed. Profound shock to the whole Sqn which he had commanded for almost 3 years (since October 1941) I have located some more details from a French village website for Aubigny, amongst which the attackers were 'two aggressive Spitfires' however it would be helpful if I could narrow down the A/C operations for that day. I do realise this might well be a big ask and may well mean I need to check some Ops Diaries at Kew, I live in Yorkshire too, but I really have no idea where to start I might just end up groping in the 'dark'! Any help would be greatly appreciated. Peter |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Hello Peter
this is a similar incident, described in "The Black Bull" by Patrick Delaforce. "The cavalry 'gallop' continued. After sleep, replenishment of petrol, rations and mail, the objective for 1 September was to be Aubigny, 10 miles north-west of Arras, some 33 miles north-east of Amiens....I just got to a firing position on high ground near Estree when the engine conked [As Echelon arrived to fill up] a Squadron of Spitfires attacked the Fifes and brewed up one petrol truck and destroyed our barbers' tools. The order to "get your hair cut" was now meaningless" According to 2TAF Vol 2 Breakout to Bodenplatte July 1944 to January 1945 by Shores & Thomas it relates that it was mainly a day of movement for the fighter wings, and recce wings. 125 Wing for example (in which my late father served) covers the period 29/8/44 to 7/9/44 in one ORB entry, something that happened rarely as it was usually a daily entry - the scribe was obviously busy elsewhere away from his typewriter! (They did a similar thing in late September, early October, when they moved from B.70 Antwerp/Deurne to B.82 Grave) "In these few days 125 Wing dropped in at 3 different strips and covered a total distance of 223 miles as the crow flies. ‘A’ Party left B.19 at LINGEVRES on the 29th August and moved to B.34 near DAMVILLE and south of EVREUX. This strip proved to be completely unserviceable and when ‘A’ Party had been there 36 hours, orders were received to move on to B.40 which was located S.E. of BEAUVAIS. It was just a case of chasing the Army the whole time, and this time the Allied armies were moving very fast and in the right direction with the Hun showing a clean pair of heels. While the aircraft were left behind at B.19 with the ‘B’ Party, what little flying was done proved entirely uneventful. The front line had moved so fast that with 90 gallon tanks a patrol of short duration over ARRAS-AMIENS was all that was possible. On September 1st ‘A’ Party moved off to cross the SEINE to B.40, a strip located S.E. of BEAUVAIS between NIVILLERS and VILONGE a distance of 60 miles as the crow flies. ‘B’ Party was left behind at LINGEVRES and when orders came to move they had to do the trip from LINGEVRES to BEAUVAIS by road a distance of approximately 160 miles. The convoy was split into 3 parties and halts were made at 2030 at night and 0830 in the morning for hot meal which was served in very short time under difficult conditions. The journey was commenced at 1600 hrs and BEAUVAIS was reached at approximately 1100 hrs the following morning. There were one or two breakdowns on the road but the convoys as a whole were a most orderly and efficient sight. BEAUVAIS proved quite a pleasant spot and the strip was shared with 122 Wing. But we were not destined to rest there long and on the 4th of September “A” party were ordered to move again. The Army was evidently out to break all records. B.52 was located S.E. of DOUAI and proved a welcome spot having every appearance of a static station with decent roads and buildings which later served ideally for H.Q.’s and Messes. The lavatories were certainly fully fashioned enough to please the most statically minded personnel. From DOUAI some uneventful front line patrols were flown from BRUSSELS – ANTWERP. Things were moving so fast that we were again being outranged by advances of Allied Troops. We are still wondering why we are still here. Our nomadic life has become such a habit that we begin to fret if we stay in a place much over 24 hours." I would tend to think that the other Wings ORB's would be completed in a similar manner, so really you would need to find the entries for the individual squadrons involved to see if they claimed any MET (Motorised Enemy Transport, as they obviously presumed it to be), in the case of 125 Wing it would be: 132 (City of Bombay) Squadron, 453 Squadron RAAF, 441 (Silver Fox) Squadron RCAF and 602 (City of Glasgow) Squadron, and although nothing is in the Wing ORB précis that does not mean that no MET had been attacked and had been written up in the actual Squadron ORB for that day - not much help I admit, sorry! "Fighter Command War Diaries" by John Foreman reports "Day: General The Allied advance continued; the enclave at Dieppe was captured by the Canadians. British forces took Arras and the US advance reached Cambrai and Verdun. Offensive Operations: Armed Reconnaissances by Spitfire units resulted in the loss of five pilots reported missing, mostly by flak..." Good luck in your quest. Please keep us updated if you find an answer. Allan |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
First 24 hours of Operation Overlord - loss of 113 aircraft, many by friendly fire.
"6 Jun 1944 See D-Day. Allied air forces flew a total of 14,674 sorties during the first 24 hours of Operation Overlord for the loss of 113 aircraft, many by friendly fire. Fighter cover for the invasion beaches was provided by nine squadrons of Spitfires, while Typhoon and Mustang fighter-bombers of 2nd TAF flew armed reconnaissance missions further inland. Such was the Allied air supremacy that the Luftwaffe only flew 319 sorties in the same period." http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/rafhis...meline1944.cfm |
Holed 78 Sqn Whitley June 1941 Claimed by Captain of Nearby Aircraft
Hello Brian and All
From June 1941 78 Squadron Form 541, AIR 27/660/24 18/6/41 Whitley V, Z6577 Sgt Drummond Sgt Dawson Sgt Pratt Sgt Adams Time up 22.54 Time down 05.18 Target - Bremen ... "Aircraft was holed in fuselage, both wings and tail from flak fire, and enemy aircraft, the encounter taking place at 0300 hrs. at 9,000 ft." "This aircraft is claimed as damaged by the Captain of a nearby aircraft. Weather: very little high cloud; thick ground haze." Mark |
Harbarcq. 1.9.1944. 1900 hrs (approx.) Maj. Bowen - Br. Fighter
Hello Peter
This would likely have been reported up the chain. Look in the Unit War Diary Appendices for Operational Instructions etc., with a Distribution List and take a note of other Units / Chain of Command and look up the War Diaries in the List. But no guarantee of finding anything further. Try separate searches of 'friendly', 'own', 'identification', 'recognition', 'fire', 'firing', 'allied', etc., with year, in 'WO' and 'AIR' etc. Some General or Policy files on the subjects just mentioned, might have odd references to incidents. A search has been on/off for 15 years for more information, about the friendly fire incident mentioned here, if you log in you can see document image:- http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=29746 'AIR' reference, search 'friendly' for '1944' gives 27 records and this gives (no guarantee of whether incident is here, or elsewhere):- AIR 37/650 http://discovery.nationalarchives.go...d=1944&_ro=any Mark |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Hallo zusammen,
ich habe hier aus dem KTB des Seeko Narvik: Quote:
Quote:
Darius |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Hi,
KTB des Kommando der Marinestation der Nordsee for 24.09.1939: Quote:
Darius |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Hi Darius
Thanks for the last two postings. My coffers are swelling! Cheers Brian |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Frindly fire was really rare during World war Two air fighting. Many times it was only fake friendly fire incident. Pilot didnt recognise enemy aircraft and didnt know what really happend.
I have something bigger here from ma academia.edu page. The same could happend during Baders shot down. He was probably shot down by Bf 109F, not by Casson. I have to say as war historian I am realy tired by fake friendly fire stories based on pilots not credible testimonies. Pilots testimonies, stories etc. are not reliable even during combat, two times more after landing and TEN times not reliable after months or even years. When you are as POW in camp, you just thinking what you should do, what you did wrong whole day. Over and over again. You want to be usefull and good warrior. You just want to appologise for being shot down and you desperately want to show your success. So, you could tell people, that you definitely shot down enemy plane before being shot down himself struggling for survival....! As war historian you MUST be suspicious and do not believe everything you hear from pilots, even if you LOVE them personaly. Pilots have very difficult situation and canʼt see much from cockpit doing maneuvres. They will tell you incredible stories based on few seconds of combat. Do not believe them a word. You must compare stories and records. Construct your theories on paper, not on STORY told you by pilot. Only, and only if, everything match together, publish your version of events! And still its only possible version of combat. You cant be sure for 100 % even if records and claims match perfectly. Do you want example? Could anybody blame F/Lt John Charles Dundas that by shouting "I've finished a 109—Whoopee!", he did shot down one of his friends from No. 609. Squadron? Could enybody say that? I wil NOT. Its nonsence, its assumption, its not historical. What really happened? Dundas was shooting, didnt hit, but saw plane falling down. Combat is so quick, that many pilots saw one plane going down and thinking "I just killed the enemy", and It was only one aeroplane. It could be FC fighter! Did they destroyed FC Spitfire? No! They just saw plane falling down. During combat after 16.00 over Isle of Wight on 28th November 1940 no German fighter was even hit! No. 609 Squadron lost 4 planes. Spitfire Mk.IIA X4590/PR-F P/O Alfred Keith Ogilvie (Yellow 3) unhurt - hit in fuselage and propeller by two cannon shells and landed at 16.55. Repaired and took off again with P/O Piotr „Osti‟ Ostaszewski-Ostoja on 12th December 1940 at 13.35. Spitfire Mk.IA X4165/PR- P/O Janusz Żurakowski unhurt - hit by cannon shell into fuselage (left plate) and landed. Spitfire Mk.IIA R6631/PR-Q P/O Paul Abbott Baillon KIA hit by Me 109 fire somewhere near Isle of Wight. Burried at Bayeux War Cemetery. Spitfire Mk.IIA X4586/PR-D F/Lt John Charles Dundas KIA - hit by Me 109 fire somewhere near Isle of Wight, probably south. Suitable claims: Gefr. Friedrich Schumann (1.) z 1./JG 2, Spitfire at 17.15 Isle of Wight, Fw. Karl Pfeiffer (2., 3.) from 3./JG 2, 2xSpitfire at 17.20 and 17.21 S. Isle of Wight (OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-265B až 267B), Ltn. Julius Meimberg (8.) from 4./JG 2, Spitfire at 17.20 S. Isle of Wight (OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-104B). |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Quote:
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Re: Friendly fire WWII
Hi Thomas
To quote: "Frindly fire was really rare during World war Two air fighting. Many times it was only fake friendly fire incident. Pilot didnt recognise enemy aircraft and didnt know what really happend." Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I have to say that I am 100% opposed to your statement. In all of my studies over the years I believe that what has so far been revealed is only the tip of the iceberg! Cheers Brian |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Tomas, I am interested in your point. Many of the contributors here are trying to establish the truth behind the conflicting details that records give us, so if you have some research to show that our research is incorrect, please share it.
Each friendly fire incident must be treated in isolation, by my logic, because not one of them was planned: each and every one was an accident. I cannot tell from your words if you believe that most of the incidents deemed to be friendly fire did not happen so I must ask: are you saying that the records are lies? If so, why would so many seperate commanders, flight leaders, intelligence officers and distraught individuals want to claim falsely that an airman had shot at one of his own? Bruce |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Tomas, I can't agree with your statement that "Frindly fire was really rare during World war Two air fighting."
Because there are at least hundred of documented cases. Your two examples (Bader and 609 Sqn) are during actual battles vs Allied and German aircraft, and in this kind of cases it is very difficult, if not impossible, to know what have happened. But many of the cases listed in this thread or in Brian's "Blue on Blue" book are situation when only people of one side were present, and attacked each other. |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Found today online a list of Romanian air losses during WWII (not complete, especially in 1945, but still very much than what I had before):
https://www.facebook.com/notes/roman...39174729490669 I selected the entries who are indicated as friendly fire losses: Date Unit Squadron A/C Type Nr / Wnr Time Location Crew Description Source 24/06/1941 Gr. 3 Vt. Esc. 44 Vt. PZL P.11f ? Aerodrom Botosani Downed in error by german Bf109 From Barbarossa to Odessa Vol 1 - Denes Bernad 28/06/1941 Esc. 15 Obs. IAR 39 83 Mihaleseni, Botosani Slt. Cicerone Popescu + Shot down by germans Arhive via Alex 28/06/1941 Gr. 5 Vt. Esc. 51 Vt. He 112-B 6 Obrejiţa, VN Slt. Ctin. Zmeu + Downed by own AA Arhive via Alex 09/07/1941 IAR 39 ? Padurea Preajba, Vlasca Lt. Ctin. Catrina + Lt. Dumitru Militaru + AA fire / Own 18/09/1943 Gr. 8 Asalt Hs 129B-2 140729 Qu.5881 AA fire friendly 40% Michiel @ LRG 15/08/1944 Flot. 3 Aero Tr Bf 108 4 langa gara Buhaesti Cpt. Deica Dumitru Downed by germa AA by mistake Raport original Arhive Pitesti 23/08/1944 Gr. 7 Vt. Esc. 56 Vt ? Bf 109G 9 albstr. Intre com. Stefanesti si Tunari Adj. Av. Stioloc Ctin. + AA fire / Friendlt Raport original Arhive Pitesti 07/09/1944 Flot. 3 Aero Tr Esc. 105 TG Ju 52 7 Com. Raul Vadului Adj. Sef. Gh. Rares + Downed by enemy AA rusesc din eroare Raport original Arhive Pitesti Best regards |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
A Swiss newspapers (in French) describing several incidents on or just before 12 September 1944, with several dead:
http://doc.rero.ch/record/97143/files/1944-09-12.pdf |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Still adding entries I found (usually while searching something else...)
On 31 May 1942 two OS2U-3 landplanes of VS-1D-11, based at NAS San Pedro, California, were on a routine morning ASW patrol over the ocean, when at 0550 hrs, eleven miles at sea, bearing 260 degrees from Point Vincente, California, they were attacked by six P-39 USAAF fighters. The OS2U-3 Buno 5364 flown by Lt H H Hirschy (pilot) and RM1c Milton E Cox (radioman), was shot up so badly that they were forced to make a crash landing at sea. Lt Hirschy first jettisoned his depth charges in an attempt to remain airborne and as a safety measure and then upon complete engine failure made a water landing. Successfully escaping from the sinking plane, they succeeded in partially inflating the bullet-pierced two-man life raft and with that and their life jackets they managed to stay afloat. After four hours in the water they were picked up by a merchant vessel, the SS Mercury. The pther plane of the section, piloted by Ens C S Willard (pilot) and AOM3c Melvin Bird (radioman), succeeded in evading most of the enemy fire (six, it is written like that in the VS-36 official war history). On the second run of the P-39's, in which Lt Hirschy was shot down, Ens Willard received four bursts amidshups which caused minor damage, but was able to evade further fire by hugging the deck and returning to base. As he landed, two P-39s zzomed alongside but withheld their fire. Source: VS-46 War History (available online at https://www.fold3.com/image/302008068 and https://www.fold3.com/image/302008076) Eleventh Naval District and Naval Operating Base, San Diego, California, War Diary, May 1942 (available online at https://www.fold3.com/image/268360344) No idea who the P-39s were, I guess the OS2U were mistaken for Japanese floatplanes (some launched by submarines flew over the US West Coast in 1942). |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Hi Laurent
Fascinating! As ever, sincere thanks for your on-going contributions - I'll have to write a book!! Cheers Brian |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
You're welcome Brian.
It's a strange day as my two searches so far today have each led to the discovery of a friendly fire incident with only a very small connection to the subject of my search. Here is the second: on 6 April 1944, retreating British and Indian troops near Imphal were attacked by Allied aircraft, suffering casualties (at the end of the page, it is not possible to copy text) http://www.ww2imphalcampaign.com/art...f-kanglatongbi |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
On 1 December 1941, an Italian column was going to attack a British base when at around 1600 hrs it was bombed in error by German Stukas near Bir Berraneb (Libya). In the column were armored cars of the Polizia Africa Italiana. One was hit and three crew, vicebrigadiere Enzo Bertoglio, guardia Renzo Anelli and guardia Anelli Renzo, were killed.
http://www.cadutipolizia.it/fonti/19...1941anelli.htm On 27 January 1944 the Italian town of Caiazzo, liberated since three months and 40 miles from the front, was bombed in error by US bombers and 18 people were killed. http://asmvpiedimonte.altervista.org...guerra_43.html |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
On 7 August 1942, VT-8 bombed several places on Mailata Island, Solomons, far away from any Japanese position.
http://www.archaehistoria.org/solomo...edo-squadron-8 Almost two years later, in May 1944, another villager of Mailata was killed when bombed in error during an US training mission. http://www.archaehistoria.org/solomo...erican-bombing |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Night of 21. March 1945
Hudson III FK 803 161 Sqdn. shoot down by P-61 from 422 NFS, (Anderson/Koehler) A. think it was an Dornier Do 217. Hudson crashes in Luxembourg/Maulusmühle. Pilot from FK 803 bailed out, rest of crew and 3 Belgian Agents KIA Few remains from the Hudson still on place. h. |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
From "Die 101. Jäger-Division", p. 384:
Quote:
Darius |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
same source, p. 575:
28.05.1943, during russian attacks near Krymskaja: Quote:
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