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-   -   Legion Condor aircraft photo 5 - 13 (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=61994)

edwest2 1st September 2022 21:31

Re: Legion Condor aircraft photo 5 - 13
 
https://www.ebay.de/itm/115506593274...Bk9SR4igpdbeYA

edwest2 4th September 2022 23:58

Re: Legion Condor aircraft photo 5 - 13
 
https://www.ebay.de/itm/363969336474...Bk9SR4bI2aThYA

Maciej Góralczyk 5th September 2022 18:19

Re: Legion Condor aircraft photo 5 - 13
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Buckeye30 (Post 321806)
Andy. These are the recorded numbers for 109s, looks like 45 was a B, 46 was a C.....


http://equinoxe.dk/SCWaircraft/bf109.html



A few years ago Michael Payne (sadly no longer with us) wrote that 6-42 to 6-56 were B-2s to make up losses in 1./2. Staffeln in Dec. 1937 but that was some time ago and more research done since.
Regards
Nick

The above cited site is outdated.
Both 6-45 and 6-46 were Bf 109 Bs. I've never seen Bf 109 B-2 term used in any official German documents (although interestingly, there exist at least one document with the Bf 109 B-1 term used).

The full breakdown:
Bf 109 V6 - crashed upon the first take-off attempt and written off
6-1 - Bf 109 V4
6-2 - Bf 109 V3
6-3 to 6-16 - Bf 109 As (note that the surviving examples were upgraded to the B standard in the course of service)
6-17 to 6-58 - Bf 109 Bs
6-59 to 6-86 + 6-95 to 6-98 - likely all Bf 109 D-1s, there is no hard evidence on the Bf 109 C-1 variant being delivered to Spain
6-87 to 6-94 (all in this batch are E-3s) + 6-99 to 6-131 - Bf 109 Es, mostly E-3s but including at least 7 E-1s.

AndyMa 5th September 2022 19:18

Re: Legion Condor aircraft photo 5 - 13
 
Maciej,
Thanks for this new breakdown.
Am I correct to say that 6-3 was Bf109V6?
I also had a note that 6-107 was a Bf109E-4. It sounds like this is wrong?
Andy

Stig Jarlevik 5th September 2022 20:19

Re: Legion Condor aircraft photo 5 - 13
 
Latest data I have is taken from Johnston's book German Eagles in Spanish Skies and since a photo
appeared almost immediately showing 6-95 as not being an E-model it of course was a bad start
for the book.

However I would be interested to know Maciej what your sources are for 6-96 to 6-98 being D-models?
The photo I have seen of the crashed 6-98 makes it impossible for me to ID that one, one way or the other....

Also Johnston only lists the Es up to 6-130. What is the evidence for 6-131?

I have also seen a photo of an E which very much looks like 6-136. It is a bad one, but any comments?

Cheers
Stig

Maciej Góralczyk 5th September 2022 21:13

Re: Legion Condor aircraft photo 5 - 13
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AndyMa (Post 322690)
Maciej,
Thanks for this new breakdown.
Am I correct to say that 6-3 was Bf109V6?
I also had a note that 6-107 was a Bf109E-4. It sounds like this is wrong?
Andy


V6 was delivered together with the other two prototypes and didn't survive enough long to receive a callsign.
6-107 was an E-3, I'm afraid it was too early for any E-4s to reach Spain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stig Jarlevik (Post 322694)
Latest data I have is taken from Johnston's book German Eagles in Spanish Skies and since a photo
appeared almost immediately showing 6-95 as not being an E-model it of course was a bad start
for the book.

However I would be interested to know Maciej what your sources are for 6-96 to 6-98 being D-models?
The photo I have seen of the crashed 6-98 makes it impossible for me to ID that one, one way or the other....

Also Johnston only lists the Es up to 6-130. What is the evidence for 6-131?

I have also seen a photo of an E which very much looks like 6-136. It is a bad one, but any comments?

Cheers
Stig

The photo proving that 6-95 wasn't an Emil was known long before Johnson's book has been published: in 2005 Quiron Ediciones published a book entitled "Las Unidades y el Material del Ejercito del Aire: Durante la Segunda Guerra Mundial" where it appeared on p.31 (I mean this photo:
https://me109.info/display.php?a=e&l=en&fid=6369). In May 2022 yet another photo of 6-95 surfaced, showing the engine exchange:
https://me109.info/display.php?a=e&l=en&fid=20017

Now onto the remaining ones:
6-96 - a photo of an aircraft grouping including 6-96 appeared on Evilbay in 2016: https://abload.de/img/s-l20001ldex3.jpg
The prop looks clearly two-blade.

6-97 - a photo of an aircraft grouping including 6-97 appeared on Evilbay in 2017: https://abload.de/img/s-l1600wgcc6.jpg
The original now belongs to me.

6-98 - look closely at this photo: https://me109.info/display.php?a=e&l=en&fid=4134
and note the position of the oxygen and power-supply sockets on the fuselage - it's distinctive for the Bf 109 C/D variants (the Emil had them closer to each other, both located between frame 2 & 3).
Furthermore, in 2016 this photo was sold on Evilbay:
https://abload.de/img/post-1-0-80210900-138pbfk6.jpg
the view on 6-98 is partially obscured by the 6-32, but we see enough to easily ID it as an Jumo-engined machine.

Aside from the above issue and one or two bad IDs of Emil variants in photo captions, Johnson's book is the only (almost) up-to-date source on the Legion Condor's Bf 109s, for me it brought a lot of interesting information and observations. If you're looking for a few further details on the Emils in LC, you might wish to check my article published a few years ago in Eduard Info e-magazine: https://www.eduard.com/out/media/Inf...-2019-07en.pdf
or its slightly updated version published in Aero Journal No.82 (note: I have nothing to do with the profiles that illustrate it).

Last but not least, the 6-131 - I'm aware of 3 photos:
a) two taken when it served with the Legion Condor were published in:
- Jagdwaffe Vol.1 Sect.2. The Spanish Civil War, p.182
- Jet & Prop Foto-Archiv Band 01, p.74
b) a post-SCW photo is available online:
http://www.aviationcorner.net/show_p....asp?id=341688
although there exists another version of this picture where at least 12 Bf 109s can be made out in the row - sadly, I don't know its original source.

Cheers
Maciej

Stig Jarlevik 6th September 2022 06:47

Re: Legion Condor aircraft photo 5 - 13
 
Thanks a lot Maciej

Very much appreciated. What is your thoughts about these "odd" Bf 109 D coming along in the
middle of the supply of the E version?

Could they possibly have been phased out aircraft already in Spain, and rebuilt somewhere?

Nice article by the way. Saved it!! :)

Cheers
Stig

AndyMa 6th September 2022 12:37

Re: Legion Condor aircraft photo 5 - 13
 
Maciej,
Thanks also from me for answering my questions.
Yes indeed, an interesting article!
Andy

Maciej Góralczyk 7th September 2022 00:51

Re: Legion Condor aircraft photo 5 - 13
 
Thank you gents.
As for the odd Bf 109 Ds, I guess there was a need for a quick re-supply before the launch of the final offensive on Catalonia whilst there were simply not enough Emils available at that time given that their production had just started.

Stig Jarlevik 7th September 2022 10:13

Re: Legion Condor aircraft photo 5 - 13
 
Yes, I suppose that is the most plausible explanation Maciej

Cheers
Stig


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