Re: German night fighter top aces by plane
 

Wikipedia??????? You're joking right???

Re: German night fighter top aces by plane
 

Hello Michael,

The listing of Krause as top scorer with the Do-217 is probably not correct.
The top scorer in this type is more likely Rudolf Schoenert. He made at least 27 of his 65 total claims with the Do-217. 25 of these night victories were scored in Russia with I/NJG 100,while the other 2 were acheived in the west.
I hope this helps clarify the issue.

Russ

(Source:Richter FB- Richter flew as BF to Schoenert.)

Re: German night fighter top aces by plane
 

Good morning Mikael, Michel & Russ,

thanks for your posts.
Can you tell me when Gildner started flying the Do 215 ?

Cheers,

Michael

Re: German night fighter top aces by plane
 

Russ - does the FB indicate which version of Do217 he flew? I know the unit had both J's and N's (N-1 I assume).
Thanks
Peter

Re: German night fighter top aces by plane
 

But let's (...for once...) not miss that there are some threats to Schoenert's validity as a place-getter in any list of "top night fighter aces"

4.8.41/0014 he claimed a Wellington: X9760 of 75 sqn
(damaged, not actually a full victory)

31.10.41/2137 and 2205 he claimed 2 x Halifaxes
Night's only Halifax loss was L9602/MP-N of 76 sqn. F/S Charles Stuart O'Brien RCAF and crew all KIA. Lost without trace
(so he double-claimed or at least misidentified)

26.4.42/0024 he claimed a Wellington
It's not been identified thus far and may be an overclaim

21.4.43/0223 he claimed a Lancaster
It's not been identified thus far and may be an overclaim

1.8.43/0223 he claimed a Halifax
It's not been identified thus far and may be an overclaim

All other Western Front claims appear to be legitimate victories and to date, I have little info on his Eastern Front opponents but can provide what I do have if requested

...All of these instances must surely reduce his tally of REAL aircraft destroyed and if we fail to take that into account, then all we are really doing is gormlessly gawping at names with victory tallies beside them....

SOURCES: Boiten's NACHTJAGD War Diaries vol 1, Chorley's Bomber Command Losses 1941, 1942 and 1943 volumes, Commonwealth War Graves Commission Website

Re: German night fighter top aces by plane
 

But let's (...for once ...) give a guy the benefit of the doubt.
Apart from the first claim you mention, which can be put down to an honest mistake, you've proven nothing except the relevant records can't be found.
Start ridiculing the numbers when you can PROVE otherwise. Sure, we can maybe suspect in some cases, but that doesn't get anyone convicted.
I'd hate to see you as a Judge.
Peter

Re: German night fighter top aces by plane
 

I'd say the first two, actually, Peter.

Given that for decades people have just sat and stared at German victory claims knowing nothing better than

Hartmann - 352 - Wow!
Barkhorn - 301 - Awesome!
Rall - 275 - Fantastic!

Perhaps save some pennies and avail yourself of some of the better books that are out there - A History of the Mediterranean Air War by Shores et al, Bergstroem's Black Cross + Red Star series, Fighter Command Losses by Franks, Bomber Command Losses by Chorley....

We don't need to accept victories and tallies with infinite validity anymore, we can now properly respect who the guy in the other aircraft was, name him and remember him. It's not the 1960s anymore, why should the forum be held back by people who don't realise this....?

Re: German night fighter top aces by plane
 

Agree with Nick. That the pilots back then over claimed, often extravagantly, can no longer come as a surprise.

I look at the 'numbers' the various aces are credited with as an indication of this being a very good or excellent fighter pilot; well-knowing that the actual score is likely to be lower, often much lower.

Re: German night fighter top aces by plane
 

Sorry Peter but the numbers are the thing that must be proved. Historians are supposed to work on the basis of evidence, as much of it as they can find, and there is clear evdience that, overall, claims in aerial combat are far higher than documented losses. If follows that not everyone got what he said/thought he did and the relatively few "aces" who accounted for the bulk of the aircraft shot down are likely to have been wrong quite often — humans may even tell lies sometimes, or so I've heard. One can reasonably question the totals credited to Hartmann, Johnson, Sakai, Bong, Kozhedub et al and still recognise that they were extraordinarily successful pilots.

Re: German night fighter top aces by plane
 

Hi Mr.Hector

According Mr.Boiten (new nachtjagd series 2018)

20/21/april 1943 Lancaster W4756 460°Sqd. VNE:ASM

Michel