Re: RAF Non-operational loss 21 March 1944
 

Hi Henk
Green,20, also registered at Bournemouth
Regards
Dick

Re: RAF Non-operational loss 21 March 1944
 

Thanks Dick.This means that we may talk from a crew of seven on JP137.
Regards,
Henk.

Re: RAF Non-operational loss 21 March 1944
 

Gentlemen -firstly apologies for resurrecting an old thread, but as it refers precisely to the query I have, I'm hoping that's OK?

I am (and always have been) a resident of Moordown, and live less than half a mile from where JP137 crashed.

Ever since my childhood in the '50s, I remember stories of a plane, supposedly on a 'secret mission', crashing to the ground, with the loss of all on board.
I remember the overgrown site of the crash, before it was reclaimed and new homes built on it, some 40 or more years ago, IIRC.

It is only now, nearly 70 years later, that the local community is trying to raise funds for a permanent memorial, to remember those who lost their lives that night.
Naturally, those involved in the venture are keen to have the names on any memorial inscription recorded as accurately as possible.

And therein lies the problem. Local 'legend' has a 5 man crew, plus 2 civilians on the ground. Those names we have - and of course tie up with your list.
The names for the crew:

Sgt. Alexander - F/O Appleton - Sgt. Evans - Sgt. Gent - Sgt. Mcgregor.

The possible inclusion of Sgt. Roberts and/or Sgt. Green as well has not, AFAIK, so far been considered.
That of course may need to change.

My query is how we should move forward, to try and confirm the presence of those last two airmen in the crew?
Or not, as the case may be.

Rather than the 'secret mission' of local legend, I rather suspect that JP137 may have been on something as ordinary as the delivery flight mentioned earlier in the thread, alongside JP107. Would a crew of 5 been more typical, for a non-operational delivery flight?

The whole thing is at an early stage, but we have the support of local councillors, and our ex MP (now retired) so we are hopeful that a suitable memorial will eventually be erected. We even have a provisional site!!

So I'm hoping that experienced aviation historians like yourselves might be able to steer us in the right direction, when it comes to confirming the identities of all those on board?

Thanks for reading --and sorry for the long waffle!!

Re: RAF Non-operational loss 21 March 1944
 

Unveiling a memorial and having the correct words on it means that the AHB/RAF (Air Historial Branch) M U S T come up with all the available info on this accident (even if the questioner is not a next of kin). The aircraft was from OADU (Overseas Aircraft Delivery Unit) and on a ferry- or test flight from Hurn, Moordown. It crashed short after take-off. The crew may have been 7 (Appleton/Evans/Gent/McGregor/Alexander/Green/Roberts). Killed on the ground were Mrs Dorothea BENNETT, age 59, from 9 Meadow Court, Wimbourne Road and Mr Percy Frederick CHISLETT, age 49, from 1027 Wimbourne Road, Bournemouth.
Success with the planning of the memorial; we may not forget those heroes.
Regards,
Henk.

Re: RAF Non-operational loss 21 March 1944
 

Many thanks for your post Henk. I shall pass on your advice, regarding contacting the Air Historical Branch for any further information, to the relevant committee members, and hopefully we can confirm (or not!) whether Sgt Green and Sgt Roberts were on board.

Would it be normal for an aircraft to be ferried to, say, a new overseas squadron by it's operational crew, or would it have been 'delivered' by a separate, possibly smaller, crew?
If it is the operational crew we could well expect, as you suggest, a complement of 7, and not just the 5 currently thought to have been on board.

Thanks again for your post.

Re: RAF Non-operational loss 21 March 1944
 

Gentlemen - sorry to impose again. The memorial for JP 137 continues to get closer to realisation. Funding shortages, and ill health have slowed things down a little, but we crack on!

As the official records 'snippets' come to light, various aspects of local 'legend' have had to be revised -perhap understandably!

One thing perhaps I may ask for your comments?
I have attached a copy of part of the crash records, which gives the serial numbers of the 4 Merlin XXII engines installed on JP 137. As you can see, one (highlighted) has a significantly different serial number from the other three.
Would it be reasonable to deduce that this engine may have been changed? Although the aircraft was less than 4 months old, and had yet to be delivered to it's operational base, it had already spent time in 3 different Maintenance Units in the weeks preceding the loss.

Eye witness reports of the time record, not only the port wing 'dipping' shortly after takeoff, but civilians on the ground reported an engine on fire.
As was common in these cases, the 'Category E (Burnt)' comment on the aircraft record card was a bit of an understatement. Contemporary newspaper photos of the wreckage show virtually nothing left!

Nevertheless, the Court of Inquiry decided 'no mechanical failure' and seemed to blame the pilot for 'flying visually'.
The sad thing is that, probably as a result of that conclusion, the descendants of Sgt. Evans (the pilot) have decided not to become involved with the memorial. Which is sad.

With the 'stall' and rudder overspill design flaw of the Halifax MKII, an engine failure on take off, combined with a full fuel load for the flight to North Africa ahead, it all probably meant that Sgt. Evans had no way of saving the aircraft, whatever he did.
And if one of the engines had been 'troublesome' in the preceding weeks, and changing it had not got to the root of the problem?.....

Of course, I realise this may just be a red herring, and that it may have been pure chance that 3 of the 4 engine serial numbers are close together.
And I may be doing a huge injustice to those vital ground crews at the 'MU's, by suggesting that they hadn't got to the root of the problem, but if we can gather any evidence that helps convince Sgt. Evans' family that they should be involved, and that no one is attaching any blame to him......

Re: RAF Non-operational loss 21 March 1944
 

The JPxxx series of Halifaxes had the final standard of fin, which cured the fin stall problem.

Reports of fire being seen are common after aircraft crashes, even when none such are known to exist.

Neither of these comments should be read as casting doubt on the pilot, just as adding a note of caution to your theories.

Re: RAF Non-operational loss 21 March 1944
 

Just goes to show how difficult it is for us to be definitive on the facts!

We have JP137 down as a MKII Series 1, not a MK II Series 1A, and the second record card actually describing the fact that the rudders had not been modified to cure the stall problem. (copy attached)

Yet you say the JPXXX range were fitted with modified rudders, making them MK II series 1A aircraft ??

Back to the drawing board for us, I think!

Thanks for this new info!

Re: RAF Non-operational loss 21 March 1944
 

Hello ,
First attachment shows that 7 were in aircraft.
Alex

Re: RAF Non-operational loss 21 March 1944
 

The attachment also shows the investigators thought the "c. of g." (centre of gravity) was out of the allowable range. This was probably a major contributor to the crash, with or without engine problems or rudder lock.