Re: Claims of 151. Wing on 6.10.41: 2 or 3 Ju 88?
 

Tut tut, Mark. Mirek's No 3. Griffin? Repeated in your 25/4. So what's an 88 here & there!!

Adjutant, yes, but with sound military experience. Not to be dismissed too lightly.

Interesting about Dahmer's report, Mirek - I followed Bergstrom's line & assumed that it was 'us' that he attacked,

= Tim

PS - Murphy again, Mark - reached for Griffith's book - always on hand - but today, out of 70 or 80 books, it was the only one missing!!

PPS - Just got this in the mail -

"As I had hoped and forecast, the latest issue of 'Flypast' (cover date June 2011 but on sale today) has a 32-page special on Operation Barbarossa - the German invasion of Russia in 1941. 12 of the 32 pages are the story and the images of the Wing in action!"

Shame they don't mention the showing of the new film about the Wing at the IWM on 9 May - the date of the annual commemmoration at the Russian War Memorial.

Re: Claims of 151. Wing on 6.10.41: 2 or 3 Ju 88?
 

Hi Tim/Mirek,

Griffith wrote a nice little book. He based it on the squadron records. Published during WWII. He also wrote other books on Russia and was a veteran of WWI.

Of course he did not have the Luftwaffe quartermaster's returns.

I hasten to add, some of the probables were 'confirmed' later by the Soviet Observation Corp so this was why the numbers exceeded mine.

I'll have to scan the original escorts and claims list. Lists them all.

Griffin - I think Mirek meant Griffith's.

As for the 26/27th September - these Bf109's were not seen to hit the ground. They did go vertical down at high speed into cloud but no evidence they were lost. Probably returned with damage though if 10% or under of no injury, they were not recorded.

The Luftwaffe seem to not always list every loss. It was used as a list to obtain replacements - not listing loses for loss sake. It seems some units hid there loses if they thought they were high.

There is at least one Bf109 E on the 12th that was 100% lost but could not be found on the Luftwaffe returns.

On a side note - a Bf110 F was lost in 1942 and written off (usually 100%) but was only listed as 10%. Could have been a typo.

regards

Mark

Re: Claims of 151. Wing on 6.10.41: 2 or 3 Ju 88?
 

All good for the brain?

See the PPS in my last.

= Tim

Re: Claims of 151. Wing on 6.10.41: 2 or 3 Ju 88?
 

Tim, no way, he had used his memories, fixed it to the history of 151. Wing, which is wrong of course (his book from 2007, p. 79-80). He is writing about bouncing on 17.09.41 by "3 Me 109 F".
But Dahmer written about attack done by 6 Me 109 Ts against 6 Hurricanes (which is incorrect, there were 3 in fact), which were all shot down - second fact. He had wrong matched this two stories in one making now such problems.
Read carefuly both pages, it is evident Bergstrom's huge mistake!


Yes, I think about Griffith's books (my error), which is nice, I have it too, good written. It is interesting, that his book was printed in 1941 (if I am right) very fast indeed, he could returned to UK on November/December 1941. He had to send whole material a little bit earlier?

Yes, in his book there are 12 certain victories, which were paid by Russian. So, Soviet had to confirmed these 2 probables as certain victories (so this Me 110 from 15.09, which was not counted by RAF but counted by Soviet should be included?).
It was important due to money reward. In his book it is 12000 rubles (1000 rubles for one certain victory).


There were not so many planes, so it was difficoult to do this. Rather commander had written deliberatly wrong loss qualification not combat loss but engine problems, which also could happend. Units had rather old planes, used. This way he gave higher commander information about faster replacment by new ones.

Regards,
mirekw

Re: Claims of 151. Wing on 6.10.41: 2 or 3 Ju 88?
 

Tim

Hope to do a writie up in the next couple of months on 151 Wing (last one was 14 years ago - shockingly) and also a bit on the three recovered airframes - Z5207 (being restored in Hampshire), Z5227 (stored in USA) and Z5252 (stored in Moscow). Two Ex- 81 Sqn (sorry - no 134 Sqn) and a 'spare'.

The Hs126 was changed to confirmed.

The RAF/pilots could not accept the 12000 rubles so it was donated to the Royal Air Force Benevolent Fund.

regards

Mark

PS The book 'RAF in Russia' was finished in March 42. On the dust jacket - Just a few things stated - He was Artillery Observation Officer in WWI. Served 3 years in Bomber, Fighter and Coastal Command (1939-41). Also BEF Expedition to France before Russia. Lived in Russia between 1932-35. Wrote two other books. Seeing Soviet Russia and Playtime in Russia. (Also have This is Russia - published October 43). Written novels, travel books. Contributor of the Observer, Manchester Guardian and was dramatic critic of the Evening Standard for a number of years!

RAF in Russia - as of 1943 - 14,000 copies sold and being reprinted!

Re: Claims of 151. Wing on 6.10.41: 2 or 3 Ju 88?
 

Biography - yes, my point - so not a careless recorder?

= Tim

Re: Claims of 151. Wing on 6.10.41: 2 or 3 Ju 88?
 

Yes of course, "it would spoil their amateur status!".

So, with certain victories is much more clear, then before. When Russian had upgarded as a confirmed this Hs 126 and Me 110 (which was not in fact even shot, but it had no matter in IX 1941) we will get "15" but in fact 13 confirmed victories of 151. Wing.

With Griffith now is clear about his book, he was proffesional writer, and he did good his job, he was also one of two British Russian interpretator.

One thing is also strange? Average one squadron had about 30 or so pilots and about 100-150 ground personel (if right remeber).
The amount of Wing's pilots was about 50 and the ground personel was about 550. It means, that there were much more ground specialist for 2 squadrons services, then normal needs. Probably there were radar, radio servisants. Such equipment, If I am right was also send in first convoy.

Regards,
mirekw

Re: Claims of 151. Wing on 6.10.41: 2 or 3 Ju 88?
 

Mirek

151 Wing consisted of 550 personal - about 74 officers and pilots (of which I located 71 survivors or their families). Probably seen about 50% of the log books.

The Wing consisted of a lot more trades as you rightly mentioned. Two doctors or which I have the diary of one which is very interesting. Radio, stores, translators. I'll have to look at the list later.

Advance party flew up from Keg Ostrov and the rest went by train - 3 days I think from Archangel.

Should still do a book - day by diary from July 41 until Dec 41.

regards

Mark

Re: Claims of 151. Wing on 6.10.41: 2 or 3 Ju 88?
 

I have written about this "50+550", due to Griffith book, where he had written: " ... a Wing of 550 airmen, and fifty or so pilots,", (p. 88).
He used "and" but not "including, with" etc. So I think, that amount of 600 could be "also good". Of course many times I have met this lower figure 550, but it is still to much a for standard 2 fighter squadrons.

Regards,
mirekw

Re: Claims of 151. Wing on 6.10.41: 2 or 3 Ju 88?
 

I have note of 19 134 Sqn pilots - is that incorrect?

= Tim