Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum

Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/index.php)

- Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/forumdisplay.php?f=8)

- - Sonderstaffel 172 (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=35596)

Re: Sonderstaffel 172

Hi Remi,

Here is a list of the sources I used for I./KG z.b.V. 172 and for KGr. z.b.V. 172. Do you have some I missed?

For I./KG z.b.V. 172
General sources for both: K.Kössler/G.Ott-Die großen Dessauer: Junkers Ju 89, Ju 90, Ju 290, Ju 390 – Die Geschichte einer Flugzeugfamilie:15, 125; E.R.Hooton-Phoenix Triumphant: The Rise and Rise of the Luftwaffe:101; K.Ries-Luftwaffen Story 1935-1939; G.Tessin-Tes; W.Green-Warplanes of the Third Reich:408; Aviatik magazine, Heft (issue) No. 1 (pp. 21-22).
K.Ries-Luftwaffen Story 1935-1939; G.Tessin-Tes.
J-P.Pallud-Blitzkrieg in the West Then and Now:112-19; BA-MA Freiburg: RL 2 III Meldungen über Flugzeugunfälle…..(Loss Reports – LRs).
BNA HW 5/2.
F.Morzik-German Air Force Airlift Operations:401.
F.Morzik-op cit:116.
BNA HW 5/14.
C.Shores et al-Air War For Yugoslavia, Greece, and Crete 1940-41:337.
C.Shores-op cit:329.
LRs; C.Shores-op cit:350, 360, 385, 389, 400.
F.Morzik-op cit:143; AFHRA Maxwell: decimal K113.309-3/v.4 Karlsruhe Collection.
N.Kannapin-Feldpostübersicht.

For KGr. z.b.V. 172
N.Kannapin-Feldpostübersicht.
BA-MA Freiburg: RL 2 III Meldungen über Flugzeugunfälle…..(Loss Reports – LRs).
PRO London: DEFE 3 ULTRA signal (number not recorded).
ULTRA signal CX/MSS/942/T16 and CX/MSS/897/T18; PRO London: AIR 40/1981; NARA WashDC: RG 242/T-311 (Heeresgruppe Nord) microfilms; F.Morzik-German Air Force Airlift Operations.
F.Morzik-op cit.
RG 242/T-311 (Heeresgruppe Nord) microfilms.
AFHRA Maxwell: decimal 512.619 British AirMin CSDIC P/W Interrogation Reports in microfilm rolls A5415-18, interrogation CSDIC AFHQ A.32.
AIR 40/1982.
AIR 40/1970.
AIR 40/1982.
CSDIC AFHQ A.18; F.Morzik-op cit:183.
CSDIC AFHQ A.32; AIR 40/1996.
AIR 40/1982; PRO London: AIR 40 Air Ministry intelligence documents.
AIR 40/1982; CSDIC AFHQ A.18.
CSDIC AFHQ A.32; G.Tessin-op cit.
ULTRA signal ML616; CSDIC AFHQ A.18; CSDIC AFHQ A.32; AIR 40 Air Ministry intelligence documents.
CSDIC AFHQ A.18.
ULTRA signal ML616; CSDIC AFHQ A.18; AIR 40 Air Ministry intelligence documents.
N.Kannapin-op cit.

L.

Re: Sonderstaffel 172

Rémi wrote in part:

Quote:

Concerning the KGzbv172, It was formed with the full complement of Gruppen, nd on may 41 it was transformed to KGr.zbv172

Do you have a source for this statement about the transformation being in May 1941, Rémi? It is in conflict with other sources.

L.

Re: Sonderstaffel 172

My source, not a very pimary one indeed , the book "Luftwaffe Markings" Barry Rosch the author, is usually pretty right , for the KGzbv1, he gave ;

Stab disbanded in Jan 1940
Stabstaffel disb. i. Mai 1941
i.Group with a complicated story, in fact long to transcrip:D
II.Group in mai 41 became FFS C6
III.Group who became the def. I.Group

Further I noted that the losses for 1942 are attributed to the KGrzbv172

A bit the same story as the one of the KGzbv108 downgraded to KGr.zbv108 after the Norwegian campaign

Rémi

Re: Sonderstaffel 172

Well, Rémi, I would be kind of careful with Rosch's 1995 book. It was a ground-breaker when it was first published by Schiffer. Nearly all of his formation, renaming and disbandment dates come from just one source: Norbert Kannapin's 3 volume work on the Feldpostuebersicht that was published by Biblio Verlag 30+ years ago. Anyway, his May 1941 date for I./KG z.b.V. 172 is incorrect. Furthermore, it doesn't even make sense. Why would the Luftwaffe be disbanding transport units in May and June 1941 right at the time of Crete and the 22 June 1941 attack on Russia? That was one of the 3 or 4 times during the war when they needed them the most.

L.

Re: Sonderstaffel 172

I would be careful !

Concerning "disbanding" units, its not exactly the case, Larry, just one group was activ with the KGzbv172, they just adapt name to the reality of the unit, further with transport units, Lwf , disdanded nd built-up units ad-hoc for the time of an operation , times became worst for the Lwf, after the losses of the month of May 41, nd really suffer from that when time came for the first "Einkesselung'', later as the Ju52 were scarce nd a bit slow, they activate units, a few, with He111 nd Me321/323, to add also that Lwf use a lot air-transport for urgent cases, all along the war , nd at a rythm beyond his petrol capacity.

Rémi