Re: RAF Mustang Escorts
 

From the ORB of 9 sqdn 12. January 1945:

"...After seeing the fighter escort at the concentration we never saw them again, except from one which stood off and watched us near the end of the attacks. One Lanc. seen shot down on fire and go straight down into the sea from 16, 000 ft. The Fw 190's were fireing selv destroying shells."

Not particular popular losing the escort and then attacked by Fw 190's......

Kjetil

Re: RAF Mustang Escorts
 

Yes, I know what is in the ORB, I know what is in ORB of 617 Sqn as well as a couple of other ORBs. There is nothing that supports Olve's words, however. Quite to the contrary, the quote clearly says that they appeared at rendes-vous point and one of them was seen at the end of attacks. So, they were somewhere around but not visible for particular crew.
A few points against:
Squadron flew in heaviest condition for 2,5 months, and it was their time for rotation;
they flew escorts for strike wings and mission to Bergen was exceptional if not unique;
there were no complaints from strike wings and I am awared of quite a few people still appreciating their Polish escorts;
Bomber Command airmen had little experience in tight daylight formations;
there were 11 Mustangs to cover the whole operation, not too much to make a proper escort on a little bomber stream.
Olve, while while this may be an exemplary mission for a lack of coordination, there is nothing that I am awared of, that allows your conclusions. I expect some proofs.

Re: RAF Mustang Escorts
 

Proof? Read the ORB's. 315 Sqn was not present over Bergen, as you said they were elsewhere. The german fighters did not saw them either.

Polish 315 pilots not liked by RAF pilots, well depend on who you ask (and how you ask) but my impression is that was not liked that much. They was brave but difficult to work with.

Best
Olve Dybvig
www.luftwaffe.no

Re: RAF Mustang Escorts
 

I have read ORBs of all units participating in the mission. If they were not over Bergen, where do you think they were? Where have you found it was the reason they were replaced?
In regard of liking/disliking I think it was perfectly put by Paul Hamlin in his Coolham Airfield Remembered. It does not change the fact they were proffessionals and good at their job.
Problems with escorts of BC daylight raids occured quite often, obviously they lacked experience. The only unit I am awared of being asked not to escort anymore was 4 FG after their disastrous escort to Norawy.

Re: RAF Mustang Escorts
 

I realize this is close to being on topic but ask any member of No.404 Squadron RCAF what they thought of the Poles when escorted on an anti-shipping strike. They loved them and they saved their bacon on several ocassions.

So, "we" really can't paint every Polish Fighter pilot with the same brush due to one incident. I'd be curious to know what the pilots had to say about that operation. Were they called off to investigate something, or what?

Franek, if you can, could you please copy the ORB entries, both the 540 and 541 for the squadron?

Thanks.

Stephen

Re: RAF Mustang Escorts
 

You are being quite unreasonable here, Franek!

Why it is so hard to admit, even in the face of overwhelming evidence, that your Polish heros not always performed perfectly?? I am fully aware of the great work they did as Strike Wing escorts, that is established beyond doubt, but on January 12th 1945 they failed miserably. That's a fact too!

Olve's evidence is more than good enough, espcially the fact that no Mustangs were seen by JG 5 pilots during the raid in question, to say such a thing!

And your statement that " Bomber Command airmen had little experience in tight daylight formations;" simply does not apply to the Bomber Command Squadrons we're talking about here! 617 and IX. Sqds were the elite of Bomber Command and had flown countless pin-point strike daylight missions, including the mission that sunk Tirpitz. Don't you know that hitting even a battleship with a tallboy requires a lot from the bomber crew, including a steady run-in to the target???

No, lets just say that on this day the Polish escort failed their duty, but also remember that it does not detract from the good work they did on numerous other occations. I see no reason to make the January 12th incident stand as a testimony to their war effort, but there is no need to cover it up either.

Kjetil Aakra

Re: RAF Mustang Escorts
 

"If they were not over Bergen, where do you think they were?"
It seems that nobody knows

"Where have you found it was the reason they were replaced"
As I said; one of the reason. That's my conclusion

Olve

Re: RAF Mustang Escorts
 

Stephen
At hand I have only my notes but I can get respective pages of the ORB.
I would appreciate if you can get any accounts of 404 Sqn boys recorded somehow. I had a lot of problems locating any Canadians for my project.

Kjetil
What is unreasonable here?
I see no evidence that 315 performed badly on this mission. I see the mission did not went entirely according to plan, but perhaps those were planners responsible, who send only one Squadron to escort such a big formation?
The fact that some people have not seen them is no proof of anything. Standard procedure was to climb into the sun to avoid surprising attack and orbit. It is obvious this tactics could not work with so many Lancasters flying on their own and the escort was not adequate. Comparison to other attacks is not fair either. Any daylight attack involved several Squadrons flying diversions, sweeps, close escorts, top covers, etc.
Daylight and night flying were two entirely different things and generally RAF BC pilots lacked experience in this regard.
Nobody is going to cover anything but there must be some proofs and not conclusions drawn on vague arguments.

Olve
If nobody knows, how do you know they were not there?
Your conclusions drawn on rather weak evidence. Tell me, if there were any actions to be taken, would the Squadron leader remain on his position up until April 1945?

Based on similar evidence as yours I may say Norses were poor on escort duties as they never got Mustangs. Pretty well reasoned. It is a nonsense of course, but similar to your logic.

Re: RAF Mustang Escorts
 

Yes Franek it seems like the Polish 315 Sqn performed this mission perfectly.
And the proof for that is:
Not seen by the Lancaster planes
Not seen by the pilots from 9./JG 5
Not mentions in the german combat report
Fw 190 could attack the Lancaster without any Mustang involvment

Yes a good day for 315 Sqn (as always for every polish or polish related pilot who have ever walked this earth)

Have a nice day
Olve

Re: RAF Mustang Escorts
 

Oh, my god, now you're really being unreasonable, Franek!

Let's just examine your claims one by one:

1. "I see no evidence that 315 performed badly on this mission. "

Hm, escort not seen by enemy nor the bombers, seems to me they did performed rather badly!! Or do we have different understanding of what "escort" means?

2. "I see the mission did not went entirely according to plan, but perhaps those were planners responsible, who send only one Squadron to escort such a big formation?"

If they had BEEN there that would surely have helped, no?? Or do you blame the bombers who outran their escort or wouldn't stay in formation with them?? This is getting stupid, Franek. Besides, you have not a shread of evidence that there was fautly planning here, yet you want us to forego all the evidencewe have presented to support our side have and beleive your "perhaps"???!! Not gonna happen, Franek.

3. "The fact that some people have not seen them is no proof of anything."

Kind of proves they were not there, doesn't it?? Or would you claim they were there but did not attack??! I dare not make such a claim myself.

4. "Standard procedure was to climb into the sun to avoid surprising attack and orbit. It is obvious this tactics could not work with so many Lancasters flying on their own and the escort was not adequate. Comparison to other attacks is not fair either. Any daylight attack involved several Squadrons flying diversions, sweeps, close escorts, top covers, etc."

Flying on their own!????? Are you really suggesting the Lancaster did not want escort and wanted to be left alone? But at least you now admit the escort was not adequate. Also see below.

5. "Daylight and night flying were two entirely different things and generally RAF BC pilots lacked experience in this regard."

But not the Squadrons in question here as I tried to tell you. This argument doesn't hold water, Franek.

6. " Nobody is going to cover anything but there must be some proofs and not conclusions drawn on vague arguments."

We have interviews with allied and German aircraft who were there that dy, we have ORBs, we have statements and circumstantial evidence up or asses - hardly vague arguments, Franek. Except to you.

I have read quite a lot of the threads and discussions you have participated in, Franek. You have a quite unfair and scientifcally very unsound way of arguing. You repeatedly claim that you oponent has weak evidence that cannot really prove anything and excel in drawing attention to things that cannot be proven and then you take that to mean that your point of view is supported, often without ever quoting actual sources or evidence supporting your claims. You also tend to present strawman and ad hominem arguments.

I'll let this rest now, as I find Olve more than proved his case. I think only you have a problem with that.

Kjetil Aakra