Re: Bf-109 Downed 17-12-44
 

The list I have shows Bf109 G-14 13/JG4 white10 82288 fell at Blankenrate (Blankenrath?) Uffz Adolf Oberkampf baled out wounded, and Bf109 G-10 15/JG4 yellow12 490694 fell at Schee-Eifel (Murlenbach from another source S/E of Prum) Uffz Oskar Heinrichs + fell in combat engaging 20 P-47s. the list also shows an Uffz Anton Brantner killed over the Eifel 17.12.44 with no aircraft shown and JG 4 with a question mark.

Re: Bf-109 Downed 17-12-44
 

I just discover your post, Franck! Many thanks! Uffz Oberkampf seems to be a prime candidate indeed.

Re: Bf-109 Downed 17-12-44
 

Anton Brantner was a member of 8./JG 2, he was shot down near Koblenz that day.

Re: Bf-109 Downed 17-12-44
 

Thanks merlin,

Regards
Brian Bines

Re: Bf-109 Downed 17-12-44
 

Just a query on post 9 I thought an Uffz Lothar Schmidt of 5/JG4 was taken pow on the Bodenplatte attack, same man ?

Re: Bf-109 Downed 17-12-44
 

Good evening Paul !

On my opinion, led by my former researches, databases, eyewhitnes-statements and crash locations, 397th FS was at about noon on the way to support 106th (US) Infantry Division at the Schnee-Eifel area north of Prüm, which was in serious trouble due to the Ardennes campaign this day.

On their way, they met the FW 190 and Bf 109 of II./ and IV./JG 4 over the general area of Prüm at about 11:50-12:15 hrs this sunday.

In the then ensuing dogfight, II./JG 4 (FW 190) lost:
- Lt. Lehmann, 6. Staffel, crashed near Steinborn, about 20 km S/E of Prüm
- Fw. Lippold, 6. Staffel, crashed near Mehren, about 33 km E of Prüm (confirmed by local reports, which give the exact crash location and the dog-tag #)
- Uffz. Hetterich, 7. Staffel, crashed near Kopp, 13 km ESE of Prüm

IV./JG 4 (Bf 109)lost:
- Uffz. Oskar Heinrichs, crashed at Mürlenbach, about 15 km SE of Prüm
- Uffz. Johann Beck, probable crash-location at Hinterhausen, about 13 km E of Prüm
- no name, but also wounded in this dogfight,but presumeasly no crash in the area

The list fits to the report of Fähnrich Lachmann, 16./JG 4, who claims a P-47 as destroyed. The a/c of 2nd Lt Frederick C. Stoll was hit, the pilot bailed out and the a/c crashed near Kopp at local district "Mäuseberg". MACR # 11002 hrs gives as lost time 11:50 hrs and the local German report gives as finding
time 12:30 hrs.

My guess of the request is as follows:

The fotos of the IV./JG 4 Bf-109 are:
- Uffz. Heinrichs, at MÜRLENBACH
- Uffz. Beck, somewhere near HINTERHAUSEN
- unknown, but in the area

Horst Weber

Re: Bf-109 Downed 17-12-44
 

Horst,

Uffz. Johann Beck did not participate to this mission, he already became POW on 3.Dec.44 near Stolberg.

Re: Bf-109 Downed 17-12-44
 

Thank You Merlin !

Well, this was pecilwritten in my database. Sorry about it.

Horst Weber

Re: Bf-109 Downed 17-12-44
 

All:

As always, thanks so much for taking time to reply. I'm continually amazed by the breadth and depth of the expertise shared in this forum.

By way of confession, had I been more diligent last night I would have seen that Horst had already provided the answer to my basic question about whether this was a IV./JG 4 machine almost a decade ago when he corresponded with Tim Grace who was researching his comprehensive history of the 368th Fighter Group.

Interestingly, in MACR 11002, Stoll’s wingman Lt. Donald N. Evans reports that Stoll was shot down following a head-on pass in which both Stoll and his opponent scored hits. Evans’ report only refers to FW-190s. This presents an interesting question as my understanding is that Fhr. Lachmann was a pilot of 16/JG 4 who would thus have been piloting a Bf 109.

If the machine that shot down Stoll was instead an FW-190 from II./JG 4 and was simultaneously shot down by Stoll, it could be that this machine might have been the extra FW-190 lost by II Gruppe but not claimed by either Kerr (2xFW-190 & 2xBf 109) or Bauer (1xBf109).

Thanks again for all your replies!

Best regards,
Paul

Re: Bf-109 Downed 17-12-44
 

Paul !

You'll find this contradiction of Bf 109/FW 190 as opponent this days several times.

In the time-frame of 17th December to 27th December 1944, the "Jäger"-units in the West were at full strenght to support the Ardennes. Several Jagdgeschwader had a mix of Bf 109 and FW 190, but only on Gruppen level.

The same misorientation comes at December 26th, 1944, when 405th FG, 510th FS reports at 14:30 hrs a dogfight in the Bitburg area. This dogfight took place and two bombs exploded in my neigbourhood. But no FW 190 was the oponent, but Bf 109 of JG 27. Two Bf 109 crashed at Meckel (one into a house admidst the village and another out of town in the fields) and one in Metterich close to Bitburg.

Horst Weber