Re: Unknown Emblem on a Bf 109 E
 

Sinisa

Since I am rather certain that David is using the word 'hirsch' in a rather sweeping general meaning, there is no European dear which looks like the emblem.

The photos are not very good in relation to the emblem itself but to me the animal depicted mostly looks like a Rupicapra rupicapra (Gems or Chamois in English and French), which makes Roland in my mind totally correct.

May I inquire which animal you have in mind Sinisa?

Cheers
Stig

Re: Unknown Emblem on a Bf 109 E
 

Hi Roland,

I have no problem discussing it. If you take a closer look at the motif on the website, you might be able to discern that it apparently has more than two horns, so I do not think it is chamois.

As for the I./JG 135, later I./JG 233 emblem, that was not chamois' skull, but Alpine ibex's skull. The important distinction between the two lies in the respective size of the animals' horns - the Alpine ibex's horns are much, much bigger in size.

Regards,
Sinisa

Re: Unknown Emblem on a Bf 109 E
 

Sinisa

I can see two horns and two ears on the emblem.
Again what animal do you have in mind if it is not a Chamois?

As I said in my mail there is no dear in Europe which looks like that.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Unknown Emblem on a Bf 109 E
 

Stig, Roland

Upon reflection, I would accept that the creature is a chamois, that what I saw as the antlers, is (are) the creature ear(s) - btw, I can see only one ear, but I will allow for a benefit of a doubt given my recent apparent mis-identification of the motif.

3./JG 51 was at that time I believe still predominantly manned by the Austrian pilots, the chamois would perhaps represent the town of Kitzbühel, while the emblem itself might have been a stepping stone to the I./JG 51 chamois on the Alpine peak emblem introduced I believe soon thereafter, in October 1939.

Now, the discussion might become more interesting at this point. Or,... perhaps the hitherto unknown emblem will be confirmed as a personal emblem?

Regards,
Sinisa

Re: Unknown Emblem on a Bf 109 E
 

3./JG 135, formed in 01.07.1937 at Bad Aibling, predecessor of 3./JG 233 and 3./JG 51 had a badge with chamois' horns ("Krucken") - the afore-mentioned "skull". Maybe the emblem of "Yellow 1" is a in-between from the badge of JG 135 to the chamois standing on a mountain peak from I./JG 51.

Regards

Roland

Re: Unknown Emblem on a Bf 109 E
 

Roland,

3.(l)/JG 135, which was indeed formed on 1 July 1937, was not direct predecessor of 3./JG 233.

I.(l)/JG 135 was the only fighter Gruppe directly involved in the annexation of Austria. The Gruppe left for three Austrian airfields on 12 March 1938, and was based there until 30 March* 1938, when its two He 51 equipped Staffeln returned to Bad Aibling.

The third Staffel, the one equipped with the Bf 109 B aircraft, was left behind at Wien-Aspern to form the backbone of the new I.(l)/JG 138 along with the two Staffeln from the former Austrian Jagdgeschwader II. In return, the Austrian Geschwader gave its 5./JaGeschw II, commanded by Lt. Erich Gerlitz, to I.(l)/JG 135 to form the new 3.(l)/JG 135 (2nd formation).

This I think is how precisely the influx of the Austrian pilots to the otherwise originally Bavarian Gruppe happened.
---------
Horns (and skull) of Alpine ibex on a light-blue shield with a black-and-white border was the Gruppe emblem of I.(l)/JG 135, later I./JG 233, and not the 3.(l)/JG 135 Staffel emblem as one might understand from your post.

If you try and Google the Alpine ibex, you will see the profound difference in the respective size of their horns, although in general the two species might belong to the same family of species.
--------------
I thought that in my last post I suggested the possible link of the unknown chamois emblem as direct predecessor to I./JG 51 chamois on the Alpine peak emblem.

Regards,
Sinisa

Re: Unknown Emblem on a Bf 109 E
 

Ibex' horns are too big imo. And chamois horns are not that small as one may think:
http://www.waldwissen.net/wald/wild/...gemse/index_DE
I still am convinced the badges show chamois deer:
http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/emblems/...ffe/lwdeer.htm
It´s important because the ibex is a symbol for central-alpine regions. The chamois is an ubiquitous symbol for lower alpine regions such as Kitzbühel/Tyrol and Bad Aibling/Upper Bavaria. Btw, the distance between both places is only some 70 km.

Regards

RolandF

Re: Unknown Emblem on a Bf 109 E
 

Yes of course Roland, correct again.

The horns are not any Ibex ones. If you ever see a grown Ibex you will simply be amazed about their size. A terrific (and beautiful) animal so adapted to its environment.

The horns are certainly from a Chamois

Cheers
Stig

Re: Unknown Emblem on a Bf 109 E
 

Needless to say, I disagree with your assessment, in my opinion horns are nothing like those of chamois', definitely the Alpine ibex. Anyway... there is little point to discuss the horns any further, so I will disengage at this point.

Sinisa

Re: Unknown Emblem on a Bf 109 E
 

Hum,

Whatever the bestiary Sinisa is right concerning Kitzbühel wappen origin.

I think it's clear with the following attachments.