Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum - seeking info about Ju-88 sunk 10 May 1944 near Port Vendres

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Re: seeking info about Ju-88 sunk 10 May 1944 near Port Vendres

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan History (Post 241300)

Hello Nick,

Not to sidetrack the thread, but can you confirm how many German aircraft were lost that night? You wrote in Kampfflieger Volume Four that "Three I./KG 77 aircraft were missing from the first attacking group; from the second, III./KG 77 emerged minus five of its Ju 88s and I./ZG 1 also lost a Ju 88 C. In the third element, no fewer than seven aircraft of III./KG 26 were lost, five of them flown by crews on their first operation." That would make a total of 16 aircraft lost, but you also mentioned that a shadower had been shot down earlier by French Airacobras, so were there other aircraft losses?

The 16 Ju 88s were the losses reported from the attacking force in Luftflotte 3's after-action report (and another seven broke off early with technical problems).

The lost shadower isn't included in that report but in another from Fliegerdiv. 2:

Recce: of the 13 recce aircraft operating from 3 degrees 30 minutes west at irregular intervals, with main emphasis on night recce, only three brought in correct results for conduct of attack, two by day (one P/R) and one by night (with apparatus). Five aircraft broke off task before reaching objective owing technical trouble. One aircraft missing. One further aircraft shot down in sea off Perpignan by Allied aircraft. Remaining aircraft brought back no interpretable results.

If you want to see the ULTRAs that the account in the book was based on, they are KV 3786, KV 3920 and KV 3921. All are on file DEFE3/155 and can be viewed or downloaded free at the National Archives website.

Quote:

You have a private message from me about an administrative matter.

Which I've passed to the site administrator. John and I moderate the discussions, powers over the workings of the site are way beyond us!

Re: seeking info about Ju-88 sunk 10 May 1944 near Port Vendres

Hello

272 claimed a Damaged Ju 88 in the area off "Cap Bagur" ( is this Cap Bear?) at the right time on May 10th. The French P-39 claim was on the 11th, off Algeria. I do not know of any other allied fighter claims of relevance on either day, so it would appear to me to be A/A or weather causing the 16 losses..
Cheers

Russell

Re: seeking info about Ju-88 sunk 10 May 1944 near Port Vendres

This was convoy UGS-40 ("Element"). The convoy commander claimed 19 aircraft shot down over and around the convoy. Google UGS-40 and read the excerpt from SE Morrison.

Enjoy!

Frank.

Re: seeking info about Ju-88 sunk 10 May 1944 near Port Vendres

Thank you all,

I still have a problem with the date though : Germans says 10 may, other says 11 may. Strange... The one "shot down off Perpignan" is just the day after the FLB 581 saved the crew of a Ju 88 near Port-Vendres... Strange. Even if this one was one of the plane who broke the task and came back but was shot down, it must not be the day before. Germans says 14h12 for the salvage. When was the attack of UGS-40 : the eleven but at midnight? They didn't need 12 hours to go near Algeria (cap Bagur is in fact cape Bengut, Algeria)

hervé

Re: seeking info about Ju-88 sunk 10 May 1944 near Port Vendres

According to the Germans. the attacking force took off from 16.02–16.32 GMT and the first aircraft attacked from 19.07 GMT.

Re: seeking info about Ju-88 sunk 10 May 1944 near Port Vendres

Thank you Nick,
it seems to be 2 german aircrafts sunk in my area then... We dive last week end over maybe one of them.
Do you think some members here, if I send some photographs (but very low remains) could identify the plane model?
I have to sort the photos then I send you one of them...

thank you again for all these informations, great forum!

hervé

Re: seeking info about Ju-88 sunk 10 May 1944 near Port Vendres

LOsses "amounted" for the 11.May evening,to a bit more than 17.., at least 9 for the KG26, among them 1 over the Etang de Mauguio, nd no less than 11 for the KG77, one given near l' Etang de Berre friendly fighter fire, nd one crashing at landing at La Jasse,
We hv also 2 losses for the ZG1 on 14. nd 11. May 44 ..it that area

Rémi

Re: seeking info about Ju-88 sunk 10 May 1944 near Port Vendres

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Beale (Post 241306)

Thank you, Nick, here is another DEFE3 for me to download :) Forgive me for what may be an obtuse question, is it possible to find the same information in the relevant HW5 file?

It appears the shadower that was shot down must have been from KG 77 as well, for the only reconnaissance aircraft that went missing was flying over the Bay of Biscay.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Beale (Post 241306)

Which I've passed to the site administrator.

Thank you very much!

Regards,

Dan

Re: seeking info about Ju-88 sunk 10 May 1944 near Port Vendres

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russell (Post 241343)

272 claimed a Damaged Ju 88 in the area off "Cap Bagur" ( is this Cap Bear?) at the right time on May 10th. The French P-39 claim was on the 11th, off Algeria. I do not know of any other allied fighter claims of relevance on either day

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Olynyk (Post 241348)

This was convoy UGS-40 ("Element"). The convoy commander claimed 19 aircraft shot down

Hello Russell and Frank, great to see two members of the esteemed MAW team respond!

Russell, having looked at Morrison online at Frank's suggestion, I assume that the following passage of Morrison is erroneous - "Credit is due also to the intercepting Beaufighters, two of which were lost. They not only forced the German fighter cover to turn back, but knocked down a couple of Junkers planes."

I was surprised that the escorting ships included only two vessels armed with heavy anti-aircraft guns - 4 inch guns on Caledon and 5 inch guns on Benson. It appears that Morrison's emphasis on the superior preparation and fighting performance of the escorting ships is correct.

Regards,

Dan

Re: seeking info about Ju-88 sunk 10 May 1944 near Port Vendres

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan History (Post 241391)

Thank you, Nick, here is another DEFE3 for me to download :) Forgive me for what may be an obtuse question, is it possible to find the same information in the relevant HW5 file?

Look on the DEFE3 message and at top left you'll see "Ref. CX/MSS…" That is the number of a message on an HW5 file.

Quote:

It appears the shadower that was shot down must have been from KG 77 as well, for the only reconnaissance aircraft that went missing was flying over the Bay of Biscay.

My first thought would have been 1.(F)/33. They were engaged in the reconnaissance of these convoys and possessed radar-equipped aircraft as well as photographic ones. On the other hand, KG 77 certainly did night security reconnaissance with radar off the French coast.