Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum - 27/08/43:JG2,JG26 losses and allied claims

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Re: 27/08/43:JG2,JG26 losses and allied claims

Hello Michel,

in JFV Vol. 10/IV the following confirmed victories are listed:

Page 444
27.08.43 Stab I./JG 2 Hptm Erich Hohagen B-17 (39.) 19.50 Pleunier, 5.500 m.

Page 578
27.08.43 Hptm Kurt Ebersberger 8./JG 26 Spitfire (30.) 19.50 5 km nordwestlich Dünkirchen, 6.000 m.

Following the Germann fighter losses on 27 August 1943 according to JFV Vol. 10/IV:

Stab JG 2
N.N. Hindernisberührung, Landung, Poix, 10% Fw 190 A-6 530392

I./JG 2
2./JG 2 Fw German Elflein † Luftkampf, Absturz Ypreville Raum Duclair, 100% Fw 190 A-6 530175 (diverging Gen.Qu. loss report from 1 Sep 1943 and addition from 24 Sep 1943: WNr. 550175, name Hermann Elflein)

II./JG 2
N.N. Motorschaden, Bauchlandung, Cambrai, 30% Bf 109 G-6 15916
NN. Spritmangel, Notlandung, Merville, 35% Bf 109 G-6 18823

III./JG 2
10./JG 2 Lt Wilhelm Godt † Luftkampf 4-mot., Absturz Gravenchon zwischen 09.20 und 09.30 Uhr, 100%
Fw 190 A-6 530137
10./JG 2 N.N. Landeunfall Montdidier, 25% Fw 190 A-6 550435

II./JG 26
5./JG 26 Uffz Heinrich Krieg † Luftkampf Bomber und Jäger, Absturz 1,5 -2 km südwestlich St. Venant, 100% Fw 190 A-4 2379 schwarze 5

11./JG 26
N.N. Motorstörung, Notlandung Lens, 70% Bf 109 G-3 16263 rote 9.

Regards
Leo

Re: 27/08/43:JG2,JG26 losses and allied claims

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laurent Rizzotti (Post 255803)

Here is what the Luftwaffe losses summary database has for this day and JG 2 and JG 26:
Stab/J.G.2: 1 damaged without enemy action on operational flight (reported on 30/08/1943)
I./J.G.2: 1 destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy (reported on 01/09/1943)
II./J.G.2: 1 damaged without enemy action on operational flight (reported on 30/08/1943)
II./J.G.2: 1 damaged without enemy action on operational flight (reported on 31/08/1943)
10./J.G.2: 1 damaged without enemy action on operational flight (reported on 30/08/1943)
10./J.G.2: 1 destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy (reported on 01/09/1943)

I./J.G.26: 2 destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy (reported on 31/08/1943)
I./J.G.26: 1 destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy (reported on 11/09/1943)
II./J.G.26: 1 destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy (reported on 30/08/1943)
II./J.G.26: 1 destroyed without enemy action on operational flight (reported on 30/08/1943)

That is 5 total losses for JG 26, against 4 in Caldwell's narrative. 8./JG 26 and 11./JG 26 were then flying with the "Geschwader Stab Gruppe" and their losses might be the ones reported as I./JG 26 above. Krieg was a member of II./JG 26, so we are missing one loss with enemy action for II./JG 26.

I don't have Prien JFV book for 1943 West front, but can someone provide the losses for JG 2 and JG 26 that day ?

Very odd that both Caldwell and Prien vs Luftwaffe losses summary database differs to such a degree. Since I don't have access to the latter (not even sure what it is :o) ) I think this needs an explanation.

Cheers
Stig

Re: 27/08/43:JG2,JG26 losses and allied claims

Hello Stig,

here is a supplement: on 23 June 1943 the I./JG 26 moved from Poix to Rheine to strengthen the airspace in the Reich (JFV Vol. 10/III).
On 27 August 1943 are listed two losses:
3./JG 26 N.N. Luftkampf, St. Nicolas, 100% Fw 190 A-5 2542
I./JG 26 N.N. Luftkampf, Nieuwepoort, 100% Fw 190 A-5 410250.

Regards
Leo

Re: 27/08/43:JG2,JG26 losses and allied claims

OK Leo

I don't have access to my JFV volumes where I am right now, hence my question.

So we still have one aircraft difference between the two sources.

Laurent
Care to state which one is left out?

Cheers
Stig

Re: 27/08/43:JG2,JG26 losses and allied claims

Hello,

The Luftwaffe summary aircraft losses is a Luftwaffe document that has been put online by Andreas Brekken and co (thanks to you).

URL is http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_summ_los...iew.asp?PAGE=1

This is the public access giving access to the summary of losses. All JG units are covered and some extra units, but most KG and TG units have not been entered in the database. The source covers 1944 and is especially useful for this year.

As for 27 August 1943, I would say we are missing a I./JG 26 loss:
I./J.G.26: 2 destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy (reported on 31/08/1943)
I./J.G.26: 1 destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy (reported on 11/09/1943)

Next step would be to check GQM loss lists for 31 August and 11 September 1943. Either the above is true and a third loss was added on 11 September, or it is a typo, or a correction that has been wrongly entered as an addition.

Re: 27/08/43:JG2,JG26 losses and allied claims

Thanks Laurent

I have Andreas home page registered, but I cannot see how one can get from there to these lists. Anyway I have now added them separately so I can locate these pages again.

Cheers
Stig

Re: 27/08/43:JG2,JG26 losses and allied claims

Hello Stig and Laurent,

in the Gen.Qu. loss reports are listed:

Report from 31 August 1943 no. 19
27.8. I./JG 26 Feindflug Ort: St. Nicola, Ursache: Absturz infolge Bordwaffenbeschuß, Aufschlagbrand (F unverletzt, Feindbeobachtet) Fw 190 A-5 2532 100%

Report from 31 August 1943 no. 18
27.8. I./JG 26 Feindflug Ort: bei Nieuport, Ursache: Absturz infolge Bordwaffenbeschuß, Aufschlagbrand (F unverletzt, Feindbeobachtet) Fw 190 A-5 250 100%

Report from 11 September 1943 no. 24
27.8. I./JG 26 Feindflug Ort: bei Ostende, Ursache: Absturz nach Luftkampf (F unverletzt, Feindbeobachtet) Fw 190 A-5 410250 100%

The entries of the 250 and 410250 obviously cover the same aircraft, so on 27 August 1943 the I./JG 26 has lost two Fw 190 A-5. The entry in JFV Vol. 10/III is correct.

Regards
Leo

Re: 27/08/43:JG2,JG26 losses and allied claims

Thanks Leo

Seems quite likely indeed

Cheers
Stig

Re: 27/08/43:JG2,JG26 losses and allied claims

Great Leo informations ,Thanks (and the others!)

So I resume:5 losses by gunfire from enemy aircraft

Just a question:the Fw.190 (2542) 3/JG26 lost St Nicolas;is it st Nicolas near Dunkerque or St Nicolas near Lens?
An idea?

Best Regards
Michel

Re: 27/08/43:JG2,JG26 losses and allied claims

Hi Michel,

St. Nicolas near Dunkerque. The I./JG 26 was ordered to the area Dunkerque encountering escort fighters of a B-17 formation.
The Werknummer of the Fw 190 A-5 was either 2532 (Gen.Qu. loss report from 31 Aug 1943) or 2542 (JFV Vol. 10/III page 97).

Regards
Leo