Re: Siegfried Freytag's 1./JG-77- Shot down over Malta
 

Dear Jochen

As you know, we have both probably been through all loss records available from the archives, and have a feel for how they are written.

In this case I feel it is I that have the most concise interpretation, and as you state there is nothing in the GQM report to substantiate that this aircraft were ditched near Malta, I just cannot agree:

http://www.ahs.no/discussion_images/...27_3_JG_77.gif

The location in the original GQM report, running number 68 of August 1st 1942 says that the location of the loss is:

bei La Valetta

I just cannot see how you can read that as:

Comiso

I do not want to list the several thousand losses (for all locations) that are similar in context here, but they are usually reported as:

Bruchlandung infolge Feindbeschuss
Bauchlandung infolge Feindbeschuss (F.unverletzt)
Notlandung infolge Flakbeschuss

etc etc etc

and the locations are given as

Fl.Pl.Comiso
Comiso
Nähe Comiso
nördl.Comiso
südl.Comiso

etc etc etc in other regions and in connection with other airfields

I am not saying that we should believe that all reports are 100% correct with regards to location reported, but in this case the location given as WHERE the aircraft made an emergency landing is

bei La Valetta

and there is no mention of the location Comiso at all.

And I do believe that until further information surfaces (I am talking the loss of 27.7 here), it seems that this aircraft, Bf 109F-4 WNr 13040, and pilot made an emergency landing at a location that the unit 3./J.G.77 reported as in english

near La Valetta

Assuming we are talking Valetta on Malta here (as there are several other places in Italy called La Valetta), I cannot change this record to read

Comiso

Sorry :-)

In my opinion, the only way to end this discussion is to find out if the Seenotdienst in this area rescued a pilot on this date. As far as I know a lot of the KTB's of J.G.77 are still available from the archives and might bring some info on this issue. Anyone know if the Seenotdienst KTB's for this period/area are still existing?

So, we have to find out if it was Siegfried Freytag the hard way... the person in question survived the war and his Flugbuch might eventually turn up.

Best regards,
Andreas

Re: Siegfried Freytag's 1./JG-77- Shot down over Malta
 

Andreas,

there is something else to support your claim. Although I did not check the film myself but if I interpretyour previous attachment correctly the loss was reported as 100%? That would mean the a/s could not be recovered and it is therefore more than likely the a/c did not crashland at Comiso.

John.

Re: Siegfried Freytag's 1./JG-77- Shot down over Malta
 

Hi, John

That is correct and is a pointer towards the aircraft not making an emergency landing at Comiso. However, there are similar records where the location is given as an airfield where the aircraft was damaged 100% also.

But definitely a valid point!

Regards,
Andreas

Re: Siegfried Freytag's 1./JG-77- Shot down over Malta
 

Dear Andreas, dear John,

I still don't buy that this should be Siegrfied Freytag because a) it is 3rd Staffel a/c instead of 1st Staffel, and b) because it made a Notlandung = emergency landing as opposed to a crash into the sea. And I know of numerous loss reports that give the damage after a Notlandung with 100%. In this respect it is intersting to note that the GQM returns report the damage as 100% much more often that the WASt. returns, where damage degrees of 98 or 99% are quite frequent ( in those units which cared to fill this in the form at all ).

Still, I think for the time being we should leave it as it is and see whether some day we can find additional information as for instance from the Seenotdienst reports.

Kind regards

Jochen Prien

Re: Siegfried Freytag's 1./JG-77- Shot down over Malta
 

Gents
There are a few methods to verify the story. I suppose the easiest is to ask Brian, who visits the board about his/their source. Then, there are several sources that may have yeld an answer to the question, like enemy activity reports, ultra intercepts, w/t intercepts, daily intel reports, p/w interrogation reports etc.
Finaly, borrowing aircraft within unit was pretty much a standard within RAF, USAAF or VVS. I see no reason why this could not have happenned with the Lw.

Re: Siegfried Freytag's 1./JG-77- Shot down over Malta
 

Hi everybody.
New on this forum, I shouldn't take the trail of such an "old" thread, but this story seems really interesting! I understand we're not close to know what really happened, since specialized people like you are do not have sufficient data to know the truth...
What is interesting is the fact that George Beurling did shot a lot of italian and german aircraft that particular day of July the 27th, and if the story of Freytag could have been true, he too could have been a victim of Beurling destructions...

I guess the "testimony" of Freytag is what we can read in Steinhoff's book, and I'm not sure we can rely on such a second hand account. Freytag is also supposed to have been shot ad MIA the 10th of July 1943 in the book, even though that is not what happened. And one in the book, Freytag said he had been shot down in Tunisia, which does not seem to be true either...I guess Steinhoff didn't want to write a realistic account.

Then, this story about Freytag is true or not, like the one when he is supposed to have been shot by flak in April 24 1941 over Athens, then escape the british while in an hospital...

Unfortunately, Freytag died in 2003, and I guess he told nobody about his history...

Re: Siegfried Freytag's 1./JG-77- Shot down over Malta
 

And I'd add that Steinhoff explained something about the way german pilots could make it back to Sicily in 42 when they had aircraft troubles. It seems that they would bring their aircraft bak close to the shore, then crash landed it on the sea in front of the beach in order to make the aircraft skid right through the beach...pretty risky business...This could have been the way the A/C of 25 of july would have make it to Comiso...

Re: Siegfried Freytag's 1./JG-77- Shot down over Malta
 

One solution remains is that the loss was not noted, for one reason or another, on 27.July JG77+JG53 cover an action of the II.KG77 against Takali start at 07h++ the brits claimed 4 Bf109 we hv 2 from the JG53+the one of the 3.JG77 +...Freytag

Remi

Re: Siegfried Freytag's 1./JG-77- Shot down over Malta
 

You could be right. It seems that such a story was "confirmed" by Mr Freytag himself, as the story of his escape from Athens hospital or his first victory in Norway.

Re: Siegfried Freytag's 1./JG-77- Shot down over Malta
 

Hi guys

I've been following this posting with much interest. Unfortunately, I am unable to add anything constructive to the discussion. The book was researched and written in the 1980s with help from Hans Ring and Winfried Bock, but I can't say now if the Freytag incident emanated from either. I no longer have the bulk of my notes, so I am not able to contribute.

However, I am intrigued as to what may come to light!

Cheers and best wishes

Brian