Re: Seeking photos of Hs123A-1 L2+AC, anytime during 1939-40
 

Hi Larry,

I know only one from L2+AC.

It had been published at least inside
"Osprey, aviation Elite Units Nb13, Luftwaffe Schlachtgruppen, by John Weal, p27"
and with a better quality inside
"Kagero Monographs Nb48, Henschel Hs 123, p31"

Cheers, Olivier

Re: PHOTO FRAUD ALERT
 

Hello,

I've obtained the permission of the buyer to show what the problem is with a photoshopped emblem added to an auction item, which is still listed on eBay.

Someone took a photo of 1./KG4 aircraft 5J+GH that force-landed and was written off in Poland during 09.39, and added a KG54 "death's head" insignia to the fuselage of this aircraft. I've got about 20 photos of the KG4 aircraft and NONE of them show the KG54 insignia on either side.

This photo from the EoE Collection shows this aircraft as it actually appeared at the time of its crash-landing.

http://ihra.smugmug.com/photos/i-dBb...-dBbjwmC-S.jpg

The second photos shows this photo as it was recently sold on eBay with an authentic KG54 emblem, but added to an aircraft on which it didn't belong. In fairness to the seller, he claims that he had purchased the original photos from someone else, believing that it was an authentic. However, it is once again for sale on eBay.

http://ihra.smugmug.com/photos/i-wsZ...-wsZrDm6-L.jpg

So once again, it is Buyer Beware.

Re: PHOTO FRAUD ALERT
 

Hmmm ... And the bump on spinner has been erased too...

Seeking ID of 5.(S)/LG2 Hs123A-1s down near Saint-Germain, Belgium on 14 May 1940
 

Hello,

I'm trying to ID two Hs123 losses on 14 May 1940 in the general area of Saint-Germain, Belgium.

5.(S)/LG2 Henschel Hs123 A-1. Shot down by No. 607 Squadron Hurricanes near Saint-Germain (Belgium) at 10.55 a.m. FF Uffz Karl Lückel wounded. Aircraft 100% write-off.
5.(S)/LG2 Henschel Hs123 A-1. Shot down by No. 607 Squadron Hurricanes near Saint-Germain (Belgium)at 10.55 a.m. FF Lt Georg Ritter believed wounded. Aircraft 100% write-off.

There are two photos which may match these two losses.

1) One is on P.279 of Peter Cornwell's "The Battle of France Then and Now." This Hs123. landed on its wheels, is identified as down at "'le Gilbet' at Jausselette, E of Perwez," Belgium. This appears to be only a couple of miles N of St Germain, and is probably one of these two a/c. No code is visible and it does not appear to carry the 5 Staffel bear insignia.

2) Second is a photo of The L2+BN FL and captioned at "Gembloux," Belgium, that is about five miles W of St Germain. This plane wiped out its undercarriage on landing, and did have the 5 Staffel insignia and a fully visible code. The only photo that I know of can be found in the newly published "Batailles Aériennes: La RAF en France en 1939-1940, Part 2," P84 by Jean-Louis Roba.

These are very likely to be the two a/c in these two losses. I want to profile L2+BN for the EoE Project, and would appreciate any additional images of this a/c. Does anyone have any information that would confirm these locations, and which of the two pilots, Lt Georg Ritter and Uffz Karl Lückel, were associated with which Hs123?

Does anyone have any additional photo references or information on either of these two losses?

Re: Seeking ID of 5.(S)/LG2 Hs123A-1s down near Saint-Germain, Belgium on 14 May 1940
 

Hello Larry,

I attcahed the Hs123 aircraft photo
L2+BN from internet, ebay auction

Best regards,

Balazs

Re: Seeking ID of 5.(S)/LG2 Hs123A-1s down near Saint-Germain, Belgium on 14 May 1940
 

Balazs,

Thanx for posting this photo of L2+BM. The a/c is well known to me and will be one of our color profiles for 4 Staffel. This was an often-photographed a/c shot down S of Chaulnes, France, on 05.06.40 with Lt Siegfried Panten, died of his injuries. His grave is next to the aircraft.

Re: PHOTO FRAUD ALERT
 

Hi, all

I do not wan't to contest your conclusion, and we should always be aware of the possibilities of trickery.

However - another possibility exist - namely wartime retouching of the photographs. I have such examples from my main area of interest where both insignia an callsigns have been retouched and thus removed before publication.

Since I have both versions (the original from a pilots photo album with all 'regalia' visible) and the retouched version where Gruppe and Staffel badge has been erased with official stamps and the PK photographers name on the backside one can easily be impressed by the quality of the retouching work. In other instances this has been quite crude and obvious.

Just a though I wanted to share, even back then a photo was not necessarily the full truth.

To address the two photos you show, Larry, they are to me obviously not from the same negative, as angle, lighting etc is totally different. I doubt you would be able to do this in Photoshop. See how the details are much more visible in the second one due to the difference in lighting conditions.

So - maybe the 'frauded' version is really the good one - and we have a He 111 with this insignia on. That would be kind of cool?

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: PHOTO FRAUD ALERT
 

Hi Andreas,

I think it was a common practice for censors to remove all items on a photo that could lead to the identity of a downed aircraft of their own forces before releasing the photo to the public.

In this case however it's quite the opposite: a photo of an a/c that was sold on ebay whithout an emblem , was enhanced with an emblem and then a modern repro of this was made and sold again on ebay.

Attached is what I believe is the original photo sold on ebay, without the emblem and the enhanced version sold again as a modern repro.

Regards,
Rudi.

Re: PHOTO FRAUD ALERT
 

Hi Rudi,

maybe, it was common practice to remove items - but was it also common practise to remove damages, for example to erase the bump on a spinner as ouidjat said already ? Only a tiny detail in the photo - but clearly visible.

Re: PHOTO FRAUD ALERT
 

And, Rudis explanation is interesting since ...

Did censorship remove details on negative? If so How can we have a modern repro WITH the emblem?
Did censorship remove details when printing on news paper? If so, how can we have the first eBay photo WITHOUT the emblem??

Maybe is too much complicated for my little head ...

:)

Regards, Franck.

Re: PHOTO FRAUD ALERT
 

I dont think the bump on the spinner was removed per se. It has merely been made less visible because of the brighter contrast between the two photos.

here i have darkened it, and you can see the bump reemerge.

Re: PHOTO FRAUD ALERT
 

Yes, I agree the bump is there. Lighting effect.

Re: PHOTO FRAUD ALERT
 

I'm confused... !

Attached below is the version I've got, with the dent on the upper spinner evident, but the one on the underside invisible/missing. I think this is the same one as the first photo Rudi posted.

I thought maybe the photo was taken closer to the aircraft, but can't quite get my head around the lower dent not being seen as I think it should be, given it is rather noticeable on post #4 by Larry. Apologies if I'm making you as confused as myself!

Paul

Re: Seeking photos of Hs123A-1 L2+AC, anytime during 1939-40
 

Larry,

In earlier discussions on LEMB you yourself identified the pictures of the L2+AC in this thread.
http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=16856
Is that no longer true?

Regards, Pieter

Re: PHOTO FRAUD ALERT
 

Hi, all

RudiS - how can you be sure that this is the way this happened? Do you know that the buyer of the first photograph is the seller of the second one?

ouidjat - he/she/it doesn't need to have the original negative - you can make a 'new' negative by photographing a print - and then work on this before you make a new set - hence 'repro' - reproduction.

I am still not convinced - I can not see how you can get so much new detail out of the obviously much darker print which RudiS present as the 'original' the person has been working from.

As I know how many different or nearly similar copies/prints/versions exist of photos in my main area of interest, I believe we are looking at different wartime versions.

I guess we will have to wait and see - and as the seller seems to have made a modern repro/copy we will probably never really know... if he/seh is not willing to share either the negative or the print he has copied for analysis.

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: Seeking photos of Hs123A-1 L2+AC, anytime during 1939-40
 

Hello,

And, of course, Major Spielvogel was killed in September 1939, Not 1940.

Col.

Re: PHOTO FRAUD ALERT
 

I don't know if the buyer of the first photo is the seller of the second one. But I am sure that the skull emblem wasn't on the original photo.

Let’s look at the facts:
1). The aircraft coded 5J+CH belonged to KG4, not to KG54.
2). Larry has about 20 photos in the EOE DB on which the skull emblem of KG54 is NOT on this aircraft.
3). The aircraft coded 5J+CH was lost in Poland in september 1939. By that time I./KG54 didn't use this version of the skull emblem, but a smaller version in white. This version of the skull emblem came in use after the invasion of Poland and before the beginning of the Norwegian campaign.

So what are the possiblities:
A). Someone put a new, non-existing version of the skull emblem of KG54 on a KG4 aircraft before or during the Poland campaign. The emblem looked so good that KG54 decided to replace all of its skull emblems on its aircraft by this one.
B). Someone put the KG54 skull emblem on this photo later during the war.
C). Someone put the KG54 skull emblem on this photo well after the war.

My opinion:
Possibility A is far fetched to say the least.
Possibility B is possible but unlikely. As far as I know censors would remove codes and emblems, not add them. And even if there was a reason for disguising this KG4 aircraft as a KG54 one, why leave the tactical code of KG4 on it?
So for me Possibility C is the only logical one.

Regards,
Rudi.

Re: Seeking ID of 5.(S)/LG2 Hs123A-1s down near Saint-Germain, Belgium on 14 May 1940
 

Hello,

Here are the images of the two 5.(S)/LG2 Hs123s that may be the two a/c that I'm looking for additional information or images relating to losses on May 14, 1940.

http://ihra.smugmug.com/photos/i-rj7...-rj7PqTv-L.jpg

The first is clearly L2+BN.

http://ihra.smugmug.com/photos/i-F86...-F867Tg2-L.jpg

The second could be L2+DN or L2+ON,

Who can help?

Regards,

Re: Seeking ID of 5.(S)/LG2 Hs123A-1s down near Saint-Germain, Belgium on 14 May 1940
 

Larry,

the visible "O" below the upper wing is the last letter of the Stammkennzeichen. I have seven different aircraft in my list ending with an "O", but none related to II./LG 2.

The aircraft letter of the unit code was usually painted below the lower wing within II./LG 2.

Re: Seeking ID of 5.(S)/LG2 Hs123A-1s down near Saint-Germain, Belgium on 14 May 1940
 

Gerhard,

Thanx for the note. I'd noticed the underwing a/c lettering on the excellent photos we have that show the crash of L2+BM on 05.06.40, and have presumed that that was the pattern that was being followed--the individual letters in black below the lower wingtip, just inboard of the lower-wing cross.

Thanx to Göran, off board we've now picked up another photo of L2+BN for the front half of the starboard side. Unfortunately, we can't see if the 5 Staffel insignia was used on that side as two people are blocking the view. I'm thinking that L2+BN was more likely the a/c of Lt Georg Ritter, but there is almost no why to prove it. I'm thinking that the officer might have likely been flying the "B" aircraft rather than one of the later letters. That's what happened with Lt. Panten with L2+BM in 4 Staffel. Pure speculation, however. Both will be profiles representing their respective Staffeln.

There are absolutely no useful landmarks from either direction of the photos of L2+BN that would help us confirm the "Gembloux" Belgium location. Don't know how we're going to "confirm" that location, unless we find other photos with the same location listing.

Re: Seeking ID of 5.(S)/LG2 Hs123A-1s down near Saint-Germain, Belgium on 14 May 1940
 

Hi, Larry...

I'm not sure if the attached is the same image as Göran has brought to your attention, but it's the only one I have. I believe it's the same aircraft given the broken branches lying on the ground a short distance from the left wing.

Regards,

Paul

Re: Seeking ID of 5.(S)/LG2 Hs123A-1s down near Saint-Germain, Belgium on 14 May 1940
 

Paul,

Yes, it is the same. Thanx for sending it though to make sure.

Seeking SN of 88 SQ Fairey Battle RHoR abandoned in Hangar at Mourmelon AF, France, during May, 1940
 

Hello,

Our EoE team is trying to ID all the abandoned 88 SQ Fairey Battles and wrecks at Mourmelon-le-Grand AF, France during mid-May, 1940. I have an excellent photo of RHoR abandoned in the bomb-damaged hangar there, and RHoL sitting damaged and abandoned outside the hangar. Can anyone provide SN for either of these aircraft?

Thanx for any assistance.

Re: Seeking SN of 88 SQ Fairey Battle RHoR abandoned in Hangar at Mourmelon AF, France, during May, 1940
 

Hello,

I had copies made so I could post images of the two 88 SQ Battles for which I'm seeking serial numbers:

1) http://ihra.smugmug.com/photos/i-Ghq...-Ghq77Sg-L.jpg

2) http://ihra.smugmug.com/photos/i-dQn...-dQnVMLf-L.jpg

I'm also seeking confirmation that the following 88 SQ Battle, L5243, RHo? is actually in a salvage dump at Mourmelon, as I have it captioned in my DB. This is a very large scrap pile and I'm wondering if this is not the repair facility at Nantes, rather than Mourmelon. Can anyone confirm the location of this photo?

3) http://ihra.smugmug.com/photos/i-XRW...-XRWCMW2-L.jpg

Any help would be appreciated.

Re: Seeking SN of 88 SQ Fairey Battle RHoR abandoned in Hangar at Mourmelon AF, France, during May, 1940
 

Hi Larry,


One of the last issue of Batailles Aériennes was on La RAF en France, part 1, Battle in turmoil, May-June 1940 :

http://www.aircraft-navalship.com/pr...aeriennes/2147

Jean-Louis Roba and Claude Archambaud and some other authors did a list with the known losses of this a/f.

Here are some candidates of Battles' 88 sqdn lost at Mourmelon or abandoned in France.

In French but easy to understand

MOURMELON

L5233. 88 Sq. RH-. Très endommagé le 14 mai 1940 sur le secteur de Sedan et abandonné à Mourmelon.
P2355.88 Sq. RH-. Détruit au sol par bombes à Mourmelon le 10 mai 1940.
L4956 88 Sq. RH-. Détruit au sol par bombes à Mourmelon le 10 mai 1940.
L5526 88 Sq. RH-. Détruit au sol par bombes à Mourmelon le 10 mai 1940.
P2258 88 Sq. RH-. Détruit au sol par bombes à Mourmelon le 10 mai 1940.
L5243. 88 Sq. RH-. Abandonné à Mourmelon le 17 mai 1940 lors d'un départ.
L4956 88 Sq. RH-. Détruit au sol par bombes à Mourmelon le 10 mai 1940.
L5233. 88 Sq. RH-. Très endommagé le 14 mai 1940 sur le secteur de Sedan et abandonné a Mourmelon.
L5243. 88 Sq. RH-. Abandonné à Mourmelon le 17 mai 1940 lors du départ.
L5526 88 Sq. RH-. Détruit au sol par bombes Mourmelon le 10 mai 1940.
P2258 88 Sq. RH-. Détruit au sol par bombes à Mourmelon le 10 mai 1940 et sabordé.
P2355.88 Sq. RH-. Détruit au sol par bombes à Mourmelon le 10 mai 1940.

ABANDONED IN FRANCE


K9441. 88 Sq. RH-. Endommagé le 29 février dans un exercice et probablement abandonné lors de l'offensive allemande.
K9318. 88 Sq. RH-. Endommagé probablement en janvier 1940. Probablement abandonné en France.
K9349. 88 Sq. RH-. Probablement abandonné en France.
K9352. 88. Sq. RH-. Probablement abandonné en France.
K9441. 88 Sq. RH-. Endommagé le 29 février dans un exercice et probablement abandonné lors de l'offensive allemande.
L5462. Versé au 88 Sq. le 20 mai 1940. RH-E. Endommagé probablement le 26 et abandonné en France.
L5466. Versé au 88 Sq. le 25 mai 1.940. RH- ,probablement abandonné en France.
P2160. Verse au 88 Sq. le 8 juin 1940. RH-, probablement abandonné en France.

I have not crossed with the known photos and so took off the serial not in relation with "your" loss.

Bertrand

Re: Seeking SN of 88 SQ Fairey Battle RHoR abandoned in Hangar at Mourmelon AF, France, during May, 1940
 

Bertrand,

Thanx. Yes, we have that publication, and the most recent one on the Hurricane as well. We're deep into the 88 SQ records at the British NA, which, unfortunately for 88 SQ leave a lot to be desired for the WC/FC. Your efforts here are greatly appreciated.

Are you back from Wissant now and did you achieve your goals?

Seeking SN of 85 SQ Hurricane VYoB possible at Merville during FC
 

Hello,

Can anyone identify SN, date, place and circumstances of the 85 SQ Hurricane, VYoB, captured damaged on a French AF, possibly Merville, during the WC/FC?

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-abgescho...torefresh=true

Re: Seeking SN of 85 SQ Hurricane VYoB possible at Merville during FC
 

Just a bit of info if it helps - I believe that this Hurricane had a L serial and was from the first batch of 600 Hurricanes; L1547 to L2146. The reason is that the radio mast on the fuselage is the early type which had a constant thickness, unlike the later version which was more streamlined with a thicker base and narrower tip that included the rear facing triangular fixing for the aerial wire.

Re: Seeking SN of 85 SQ Hurricane VYoB possible at Merville during FC
 

Or an N serial.

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/i...ound-apr-1940/

regards

Mark


Possibly L1779??

Can you solve a 6.(S)/LG2 mystery and be my hero?
 

Hello,

http://ihra.smugmug.com/photos/i-kdw...-kdwnz9N-L.jpg

In the EoE LW Loss DB, there are about 10 photos of this a/c. Putting them together, this is revealed to be Hs123 of 6.(S)/LG2 with the code L2+DP

This is the only one photo that has a location, but we can't decipher it.

"Merlin" says: "this caption is hard to decipher. The first capital letter is a mixture of Sytterlin and normal writing, for the next ones there are some possibilities and the location ends with '...nditier'. I could not find anything similar in the loss reports for II./LG 2."

Although this says "Juni 1940" this has to be the date of the photo, not the date of the crash. There are only three possible 6 Staffel reports that might be this a/c in the EoE LW loss DB during the entire Western Campaign of May-June, 1940, all in mid-May:

"May 13, 1940:
6.(S)/LG2 Henschel Hs123A-1. Believed shot down by Sgt Wilkinson of No. 3 Squadron between Jauche and Pitrain, south of Tienen (Belgium), during ground-attack sortie 1.00 p.m. FF Fw Hans Knerr killed. Aircraft 100% write-off.

6.(S)/LG2 Henschel Hs123A-1. Believed shot down by Sgt Allen of No. 3 Squadron over Orp-Jauche, south of Tienen (Belgium), during ground-attack mission 1.00 p.m. FF Lt Hans-Joachim Fritz badly wounded, admitted to hospital in Jülich. Aircraft 100% write-off.
May 15, 1940:
6.(S)/LG2 Henschel Hs123A-1. Shot down by flak near Altiaux, 15 km south of Wavre (Belgium). FF Gefr Walter Krug killed. Aircraft 100% write-off."
Can anyone put this information together with the partial place name and come up with a solution to this mystery? Based upon the condition of the wreck, unless the pilot baled out this crash would have resulted in a fatality to the pilot. This makes the first and third the most likely candidates. However, there is no visible field grave in the photos. This plane crashed near a major road and was repeatedly photographed by German soldiers over a considerable period of time as the wreck was much disturbed. The swastika was not removed from the tail, so this crash likely did not happen behind Allied lines or at least happened very close to the front lines at the time of the incident.

Who can solve this one?

Were Etaples and Le Touquet the same airfield?
 

Hello,

Were Etaples and Le Touquet the same airfield used by the LW during the Battle of Britain, or were they two different places?

Re: Were Etaples and Le Touquet the same airfield?
 

They are the same airfield. The Germans sometimes mentionned it as Etaples due to the proximity of the city but the official french name is Le Touquet.

Re: Seeking SN of 85 SQ Hurricane VYoB possible at Merville during FC
 

I recon that N series Hurricane is an anomaly and has had an old mast fitted from stores!

However N2319 was the second of the new batch so I'll concede that early N's had these masts but not many so L series is still more likely.

Re: Can you solve a 6.(S)/LG2 mystery and be my hero?
 

Hi Larry,

Just a wild guess: could it be Montdidier (with some misspelling) in northern France? That would tie up with the time frame June 1940, but is none of your loss possibilities...

Regards,
Hans

Re: Can you solve a 6.(S)/LG2 mystery and be my hero?
 

I have several photos of this wreck. I will check them out, hopefully the location is marked on the verso of some of them.

Re: Can you solve a 6.(S)/LG2 mystery and be my hero?
 

Hello to both of you and thanks for trying to help.

Hans,

I had originally thought of that as a possible resolution several days ago. It is the only town I know of with that possible similar ending.

Peter C. now thinks that this is the 15 May incident 15 kms S of Wavre, Belgium, although he can't find the source attribution for this information in his records. Unfortunately, Montdidier, France, is around 200 kms from Wavre, so it certainly doesn't fit that location.

Dénes, please do check and see if you can turn up anything. The photo I posted was the only one that I could find with any location info. There have been around a dozen images of this crash posted on eBay, and I only won one of them, which alas had no location information. This is the only one that had a any possible location info posted with it on eBay that I know of. We want to profile this a/c for the EoE project if we can firmly identify it.

Regards,

Re: Can you solve a 6.(S)/LG2 mystery and be my hero?
 

Hello Larry,

I would like to be your hero :D.

I was told many years ago about a German crash occured at the East end of Saint-Géry village. 'Altiau' or Rue Altiau is a street located in this same village, which is situated roughly 6 km West of Gembloux.
I don't know if this case can be linked to your crash on the picture. You know, this scarce testimony dates many years ago (no more witnesses now) but perhaps if there is a landmark appearing on your pictures, I would be able to make a matching?

Best regards

ClinA-78

Re: Can you solve a 6.(S)/LG2 mystery and be my hero?
 

It may be relevant that because the country has two official languages, places in Belgium often have both a Flemish and a French form of their names: Tienen is also known as Tirlemont for example.

Re: Can you solve a 6.(S)/LG2 mystery and be my hero?
 

'Altiau' is situated well inside the French-speaking part of Belgium.

ClinA-78

Re: Can you solve a 6.(S)/LG2 mystery and be my hero?
 

Larry,

to me this looks definitely like a mis-spelt form of Montdidier, spelt here like Monditier. Looking at the captions on many German photos from that period you'll find much worse deformations of French names than this one.

Hope this helps

Jochen