Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 

That doesn't always mean that an aircraft "reported as shot down by ZA" did not get shot down also by a German fighter. I've ran across two Il-2 reported by Soviet records as shot down by AAA in 1943 that actually fell to fighters of JG 54 afterwards.

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 

Thanks for the clarification guys! I have edited Post 39. Still anywhere from an 16.5 to 1 to - AT BEST - a 3 to 1 overclaim ratio however!

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 

hi,
about Hartmann i found this info (claims by Johannes, some info by Nick Hector and me):

Between 04.02.44-26.02.44:

4,2.44 9./JG 52 Lt P-39 raum 15km westlich Signajewka 15km W Signajewka 1140 3500 E J 192

9 GIAD (or VVS ChF?) 129 GIAP no losses

26,2.44 9./JG 52 Lt P-39 raum Kirowograd Kirovgrad area 908 3000 E J 193
26,2.44 9./JG 52 Lt P-39 raum Kirowograd Kirovgrad area 916 3000 E J 194

9 GIAD (or VVS ChF?) Only on loss Mladshiy Leytenent Leontiya Zadiraki 129 GIAP bail out return safely, 304 IAD had no more losses at this time and 205 IAD located in other region

26,2.44 9./JG 52 Lt P-39 raum Alexandrowka Alekandrovka area 1145 4000 E J 195
26,2.44 9./JG 52 Lt P-39 raum Alexandrowka Alekandrovka area 1148 3000 E J 196
26,2.44 9./JG 52 Lt P-39 raum 10km westlich Alexandrowka 10km W Alekandrovka 1153 3000 E J 197
26,2.44 9./JG 52 Lt P-39 raum 29km südsüdwestlich Kirowograd 20km SSW Kirovograd 1158 2500 E J 198
26,2.44 9./JG 52 Lt P-39 raum Alexandrowka Alekandrovka area 1203 2000 E J 199

Probably 438 IAP. Three P-39s lost from a formation of four: Starshiy Leytenant Rybakov bail out safe, Starshiy Leytenant Zinchenko KIA and Leytenant Mamin bail out. Two more damaged and force landing Demchenko landed at the airfield and was repaired and Motuzko aircraft was sent to PARM atributed to Krupinski

26,2.44 9./JG 52 Lt P-39 raum Alexandrowka Alekandrovka area 1440 2500 E J 200
26,2.44 9./JG 52 Lt P-39 raum 10km östlich Alexandrowka 10km E Alekandrovka 1445 3000 E J 201
26,2.44 9./JG 52 Lt P-39 raum 10km westlich Alexandrowka 10km W Alekandrovka 1450 2000 E J 202

9 GIAD (or VVS ChF?) 205 IAD 2 lost and one more damaged. Mladshiy Leytenant Vodolazhsky was shoot down in a dive and bail out. Leytenant Oleynikov was shoot down after the air battle 10min later. One from 129 GIAP Leytenant Korolev was damaged and made a force landing on their airfield. 438 IAP. Rall and Bachnick are believed to have claimed against Mladshiy Leytenant Vodolazhskiy (KIA?) and Leytenant Oleynikov (known to have baled successfully)

probably 4 + 2 damaged forcelanded of 11 claims...
if you add some info...or have different info....

enjoy,
regards

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 

Did other Luftwaffe pilots claim victory at the same time and same area?

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 

I acknowledge Nokose and Nikita Yegorov as providing much of the original source material attributed to me by GMichalski.

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 

Guys, interesting continuation of and old, controversial subject. But, we may have beat some of it to death.

I recommend sticking with the line of actual losses versus claims. That is productive. The basic issue of over claiming was done by ALL air forces in WWII, not just the Luftwaffe, sometimes between 3 to one and even higher. So, it is a dead issue about who was the worst.

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 

I can second that. Often, it was "safer", less "complicated" to report an aircraft lost to flak than to enemy fighters. I encountered many instances when a loss officially attributed to anti-aircraft defence was most probably scored by fighters. I found such cases especially when researching USAAF losses over Central and Eastern Europe. That's why it's recommended to assess overall losses against overall claims (including flak). For example, I used such approach in my book, "From Barbarossa to Odessa", vols. 1 and 2, dealing with the air war over the Southern area of the Eastern Front (June-October 1941). I was very surprised to realise how inaccurate the claims of all involved parties were against actual losses. Finally, not only total losses should be taken into consideration, but also damaged ones, as often such damaged aircraft were eventually written off, but in all cases were certainly taken out of service for a shorter or longer while, which was the aim of the adversary when pursuing a "kill".

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 

Hello Dénes, I agree with the first part of your message but I’m not so sure on the second part, because there were damages and damages, of the first 3 planes below, the effect of the damage to the FiAF’s combat capacity was insignificant, only some extra work to mechanics, next two had varying effect and the last two were in effect lost, at least to the duration of the war.

090644, c 1240, MT-213, 2./HLeLv 24, Ltm Yrjö Turkka unhurt, Valkeasaari-Joutsenselkä, 1 hvmg hit on left wing during aircombat, repaired next combat sortie on same day 1610, from combat report

020744, c 1150, MT-416, 3/HLeLv34, Kers M. Durchmann unhurt, Viipuri, 1 mg hit on right wing Il-2, repaired 020744 1645- next combat sortie, from combat report

140644, c 1200, MT-419, 3./HLeLv34, kapt Olli Puhakka unhurt, Tyrisevä, 2 20mm hits during head-on attack by La-5 aileron rod severed, repaired next combat sortie 150644 0955, from combat report

100644, c 1045, MT-231, 1./HLeLv 24, kers A Koskelainen unhurt, Raivola-Kivennapa, 3 hvmg hits 1 on tip of right wing 1 on fuselage 1 on rudder, repaired next combat sortie 140644 1800, from combat report

020644, 1430, MT-209, 3./HLeLv 24, ylik E. Vesa unhurt, Kuuterselkä/Uusikirkko, hits on radiator fuselage and airscrew during air combat by Yak-9 forced landing onto field, repaired to 2./HLeLv 24 190644, from combat report

170644, 1155, MT-419, 3./HLeLv34, kapt Olli Puhakka unhurt, SW of Muolaanjärvi/Heinjoki a/f, 3 hvmg hits 1 hit to radiator 2 hits in blades during aircombat by Il-2 (The history of LeR 3 says hit by a fighter), during forced landing onto Heinjoki a/f right u/c retracted right wingtip bended blades chipped, destr during transport to repairs 200644 during the bombing of Elisenvaara station, SOC 300844, from combat report and ac papers flight time 26h 20min 8 victories

280644, c 1000, MT-437, 3/HLeLv 24, kers K Keskinummi WiA, SE of Viipuri, hits during aircombat forced landing at Nuijamaa, repaired after war 201045 to HLeLv 23, place deduction from others’ combat reports

Juha

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 

Hi,
sorry i forget some of the info are of Nokose and Nikita Yegorov
and also some webs...

regards

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 

Because on a number of occasions, I have discussed examples of overclaiming of Luftwaffe experten, it’s been suggested in some quarters that I have an anti-German bias. However, while I do find examining extreme overclaimers an interesting aspect of air combat, my primary interest is in whom were the very best fighter pilots based on actual results - not credits. An example of one whose claims seems to reflect reality seems to be Helmut Lipfert (203) whose “Combat Diary” I recommend as the best and most insightful recollection of pure air combat by a single pilot that I have ever read. Despite his prolific success Lipfert never claimed more than five aircraft in a day (which he did once). Because of this “Johannes” one of the major contributors to this site has cited him as likely to be among the more reliable claimers among the top experten. Now there seems to be some confirmation of his suspicions in Post 167 of this already provided link:

http://reibert.info/threads/%D0%AD%D...n.76229/page-7 [Google Translate: “Just do not all be lumped together. Victory Fennekolda Lipferta and many applications which, incidentally, are confirmed in our documents were in a completely different area. Group 2 August 23 flew from one airport to another Romanian, so in the battles of Sandomierz not participate. Lipfert, incidentally, won the day yet another unconfirmed victory, but as Zaksenberg himself was shot down and made a forced landing in Galati - but it has already been discussed and generally another topic.”]

While no specific information has been provided, the above seems to strongly indicate that a comparison of Lipfert’s claims to actual losses in Russian records has shown them to be quite reliable. If someone can figure out who has unearthed this information or where it can be perused, it would make a useful contribution to this area of inquiry. The post also seems to suggest that Oblt. Otto Fönnekold (136) and other JG52 pilots were reliable claimers.

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 

interesting.....

thanks Rob,

regards

What does the evidence say?
 

Has anyone ever found evidence (even a hint) in Luftwaffe correspondence (records of the Luftwaffe) that shoot-down claims had become a propaganda tool of Goebbels, and the RMVP? After all, the Luftwaffe had propaganda officers that fed the Wehrmachtbericht on a daily basis.

Simple question: Is there evidence that the Luftwaffe claim system was systematically corrupted by a propaganda campaign?

Conversely, has anyone found evidence in the Soviet correspondence that reporting German shoot-downs as some other form of loss (or denying them outright) had become a propaganda tool of the Russian propaganda machine? (Not to mention the systematic misrepresentation of combat losses for other, more important reasons, that is, avoiding the internal wrath and purges that so often occurred?)

Quite frankly, I suspect the Soviet's record keeping in this regard. I think there is a mountain of circumstantial evidence supporting the above paragraph. Everybody was lying in the Soviet system, e-v-e-r-y-b-o-d-y. There was no incentive to tell the truth, and every reason to lie.

It's a significant and well known limitation in the study of the Eastern Front: The Soviet correspondence, all of their records and reports, contain omissions, misrepresentations, distortions and outright lies.

Bronc

Re: What does the evidence say?
 

Have not seen that but clearly the info on RAF losses given daily by LW to KM during the BoB was highly optimistic, see e.g. Kriegstagebuch der Seekriegleitung.

Now how one could get replacements if one didn't declare losses? High combat losses meant trouble for regimental commander but so meant too many losses by pilot errors, bad weather etc. So why to lie?

The first Bf 110 recovered from Far North SU in 1980s or early 90s was found to be hit by MG fire into an engine even if officially lost to mechanical troubles. The pilot had survived the war and was still alive and when asked admitted that the plane was shot down by Soviet AA but under pressure from his superiors he had agreed to wrote down into his combat report the reason of the loss "engine failure". So, one cannot be 100% sure in individual cases but in SU the accusation of sabotage had dire consecuences so large scale reporting of combat losses as mechanical failures, pilot errors or weather related losses is very improbable in Soviet case.

Juha

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 

In the same way that as a professional I have witnessed or am aware of innumerable compromises, or violations that have never gone and never will go reported, I suspect that Hartmann (352) may have been pressured on the occasion of his 300th (19 Claims over 2 days with a Propaganda Kompanie (PK) unit at the scene) - it was after all a totalitarian system with dire consequences for those who resisted -recall the bloody purges that were even then occurring within the military following the assassination attempt on Hitler. Hartmann may not have been the most reliable claimer, but I don't believe he was typically as bad as on 23-24 Aug 44. If he was indeed pressured in any way he may have been ashamed or embarrassed by the fact, and subsequently suppressed the memory. Lang (173) may have faced similar pressure earlier when he claimed 18 in one day in the midst of another Ostfront disaster in November 1943 with the photo of him emerging victoriously from his Fw-190 ending up on magazine covers.
But all this is mere conjecture; it is doubtful that any paper trail was left, just as there never was a document that EXPLICITLY stated the true fate of the victims of the euphemistic “Final Solution”.

To Echo Juha -one way or another - losses in the military GET reported -otherwise the military machine will fly apart.

Re: What does the evidence say?
 

I do not believe Luftwaffe claim system was systematically corrupted by a propaganda campaign, the issue we are talking here is that, in WWII, the claim system of ALL AIRFORCE were not accurate, it was common for all WWII airforce that their overclaim rate reachs the level of 3:1 or 4:1, Luftwaffe was not an exception

Reporting losses would require the use of 'finesse'
 

Bob wrote, "To Echo Juha -one way or another - losses in the military GET reported -otherwise the military machine will fly apart."

Juhu wrote, "High combat losses meant trouble for regimental commander but so meant too many losses by pilot errors, bad weather etc."

Soviet commanders used finesse when reporting losses. When there were too many combat losses, a few got reported lost due to weather and some were lost due to mechanical failure. Too many mechanical failures, and a few were reported lost due to combat losses and some due to weather. The idea was to keep everything in balance. Records and reports were constantly being finessed to not attract attention.

And Soviet commanders were very good at hiding this, because their lives depended not only on doing it, but also on keeping it secret.

The fundamental requirement for Soviet commanders to finesse everything at every stage of reporting is so obvious and prevalent in the literature that it's not even a matter of debate. It's a fact.

mars wrote, "...in WWII, the claim system of ALL AIRFORCE were not accurate, it was common for all WWII airforce that their overclaim rate reachs the level of 3:1 or 4:1, Luftwaffe was not an exception."

Agreed.

Bronc

Re: Reporting losses would require the use of 'finesse'
 

Would you be so kind as to illustrate you words with examples containing precise references to the documents.

Do you have a pen and notebook?
 

Well Nikita, let's see... For starters, I can point you towards, Zhukov's Greatest Defeat - The Red Army's Epic Disaster in Operation Mars, 1942 a 403-page book by David Glantz whose scholarship is highly esteemed and beyond reproach. (Soviet correspondence citations fully annotated.) The book repeatedly refers to finessed (misleading) Soviet intelligence, planning, operations, logistics, casualty, movement and battle reports by Soviet commanders, from top to bottom, as a major problem and cause for defeat. In fact, the very existence of Operation Mars as a major Soviet disaster that ran concurrent with Operation Uranus (Stalingrad) was finessed out of the history books by Soviet commanders and propaganda until Glantz dug it back out.

Then there is, The Stalingrad Cauldron a 512-page book by Frank Ellis. (Soviet correspondence citations fully annotated.) In Chapter 5 of the book, Ellis thoroughly examines the Konings-Zaitsev sniper duel and calls it for what it is: a fraud created by Soviet propaganda. Major Konings, (regardless of how you spell his name) never existed, Zaitsev was a propaganda instrument from the very beginning, his kills, as with all of the other Soviet snipers, were "finessed" in the official reports for propaganda. Then in Chapter 6, we have a very detailed examination of how Soviet commanders "finessed" over 70,000 Hilfswillige out of existence. Over 70,000 Soviet soldiers and citizens were voluntarily fighting for the Germans at the end in Stalingrad. The Germans had every last one of them documented in official records the day before their surrender, and the day after, the Soviets didn't account for a single one of them. To this day, those people remain missing.

But those are just the two (2) books that I've read this week. Do you really want to continue along these lines? I have maybe 500 other examples. Again: the fundamental requirement for Soviet commanders to finesse everything (lie) at every stage of reporting is so obvious and prevalent in the literature that it's not even a matter of debate. It's a fact.

Bronc

Re: Do you have a pen and notebook?
 

No, just give Nikita info on some VVS loss docus you have noticed to be "finessed". Have You ever seen VVS loss documents and are You aware what kind of info they contained?

Re: Do you have a pen and notebook?
 

Please stick to the point: "When there were too many combat losses, a few got reported lost due to weather and some were lost due to mechanical failure. Too many mechanical failures, and a few were reported lost due to combat losses and some due to weather. The idea was to keep everything in balance. Records and reports were constantly being finessed to not attract attention.

And Soviet commanders were very good at hiding this, because their lives depended not only on doing it, but also on keeping it secret."

Please advise any IAP, BAP, ShAP or other unit where it was practised and name any air unit commander who acted in this way.

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 

In the construction of an evidentiary case, circumstantial evidence is often used to assess the credibility of direct evidence. Thus, it is unnecessary to have direct evidence of whether IAP, BAP, ShAP (or other units) or the name any air unit commander who acted in this way, as a circumstantial case can be made suggesting they all acted this way.

1) The state of mind of Soviet commanders is a probative element of circumstantial evidence. In this case, it is universally understood that the state of mind of Soviet commanders was fear, fear of dismissal, purge and execution. (The Germans were the least of their fears.) Thus, based on the fear of death, a motive can be found to finesse reports and records.

2) The course of prior conduct of Soviet commanders is also probative. In this case, it is well documented that many Soviet commanders finessed their reports and records.

3) An opinion as to credibility of Soviet records and reports is also admissible, if that opinion is made by persons with knowledge. In this case, the general consensus of historians with knowledge is that Soviet records and reports are not credible.

In this case, there is direct evidence of German claims, and there is direct evidence (in Russian reports and records) that German claims are not truthful. The circumstantial evidence (1-3 above) suggests that Soviet records may not be credible.

On the other hand, there is no countervailing evidence (The same factors listed in 1-3 above) that suggests that German records were not credible.

There is other circumstantial evidence to suggest some German claims were incorrect however, and these have be discussed above.

mars has already provided the answer, "...in WWII, the claim system of ALL AIRFORCE were not accurate, it was common for all WWII airforce that their over-claim rate reached the level of 3:1 or 4:1, the Luftwaffe was not an exception."

And to condemn a single noteworthy German pilot for this is unfair.

Bronc

Re: What does the evidence say?
 

Hello Juha,

It seems strange a bit. What is a reason for the "superiors" to hide the combat loss and replace it by engine failure?

Some Russian air war history fans believes that that "everybody lied in the Luftwaffe, e-v-e-r-y-b-o-d-y" (as written by forum member Broncazonk about the Soviet Union), but I thought before what it is hyperbolic a bit :)

In the Soviet Air Forces the situation was inverse - less problem for the commander to report about combat loss than about technical failure or the loss due to human error. But anyway, all losses were counted and cross-checking proves the picture (my experiense from researching the documents about Kuban Air Battles 1943, Kerch-Eltigen operation 1943 and Moonsund operation 1944).

Best regards,
Andrey

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 

Hello Andrey
the reason was that orders had came from Oslo or Berlin that units up North had to try to spare their planes and low level attacks against trains on the Murmansk raiway were banned. The local commanders thought that those low level attacks were effective and decided to continue them and the 110 was hit during a low level attack against a train. So to hide their disobeyance the pilot was ordered to lie the reason for the loss by his CO.

Juha

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 

Thank you, Juha! So it was a specific situation.

Andrey

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 

Hello Bronc
First of all people reacted differently, some commanders who had suffered in the hands of NKVD became rather timid but not all, look e.g. Konstantin Rokossovsky, who spent a couple years in prison after being heavily tortured by NKVD in 1937, was after his release still a hard and stubborn man, who was not afraid to argue with even Stalin if he disagree with him on important military matters.

And its rather odd that claims of some LW, FiAF and Hungarian aces tally much better with the Soviet loss records than claims of some others. If ALL Soviet records were "finessed" how that was possible?

I'd not argue on this anymore but I hope that you'll try to acquire at least some basic knowledge on VVS documentation systems before making more sweeping claims on it.

Juha

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 

Yes

Juha

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 

Please understand that my posts on this subject were made to demonstrate the dangerous futility of this research topic. My comments were intentionally expansive and provocative, and beyond what one would normally expect in normal discourse of this forum. I apologize for the unusual tact, but for the exercise to succeed I could not disclose that I was using this debate technique.

Robert = Bronc

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 

Discussion on Japanese overclaimers as well as others including Billy Bishop who may have been the most egregious ever with perhaps 0 of 72 claims Historically Verified (though other more generous researchers suggest as many as 20)!

http://www.j-aircraft.org/smf/index.php?topic=14376.0

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 

(Sigh and yawn, yawn and sigh) Once again, Fred Nurke says something on this other forum or Joe Bloggs says something on that other forum and Rob Romero serves up

h e a r s a y

as if it were

f a c t s

with ultimately nothing real proven.
...It's getting old, friendo.

How about doing some of your own research into individual combats and then posting what you find? That would surely make for interesting and for more constructive reading.

Additionally, none of the aces in the other forum's quote that you quoted had anything to do with the Luftwaffe.

Be as offended as you like. I'm happy to risk having the moderators get mad at me if they think I have overstepped the mark here...

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 

Hi to all,

i check some claims of Hungarian pilots and i see that E. Hartmann flew as wingman with László Pottyondy on 17 november 44, this day both pilots claimed a Boston:

Erich Hartmann

17,11.44 7./JG 52 Hptm Boston III raum 25km südöstlich Budapest 25km SE Budapest 1425 2000 E J 316

László Pottyondy
17.11.44 . Cpt Boston Me 109G 102/2 FS CO Ocsa 7

In Osprey - Aircraft of the Aces Series Nº 50 Hungarian Aces says that Hartmann victim crashed near Erzsébetfalva (Pesterzsébet?) and Pottyondy victim near Ocsa


anyone can add more information? probable victims...

many thanks,
regards

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 

GMichalski, All that I could find out is that at least one A-20 belonging to the 453 BAP (218 BAD) 5 VA was shot down on the 17Nov44 by a fighter attack. If there were more I don't have information but maybe one of our Russian members can advise.

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 

Hi,
many thanks Nokose,
it helps a lot,
regards

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 

Hi Guys

I worked with Bernd Barbas on JG 52's claims and can assure you they are more accurate than Tony Woods, primarily because Bernd knew the pilots involved. I will confess regarding fraudulent claims that I have noticed certain traits that would support this, firstly why when a whole Gruppe is in a certain region are almost all made by the same Staffel, also it takes at least two to make fraudulent claims i.e Rudorffer and Tangermann. you can never be sure but I would say the 6./JG 5, 3./JG 54, 3./JG 52 and 9./JG 52 look suspect during 1944, If I had to put money on it I would say that Schall and Anton Resch always seemed to claim together, and are in my mind suspect. Hartmann makes large number claims whilst with Birkner. Another telling point is if they get transfered to the West, or just another unit how different their claims are in volumn.
With 9./JG 52 if false claims are true here, it must have continued for years, so replacement pilots must have been groomed to assist. but generally I have found Jg 52's claims not outrageous. Sad thing is that these overclaimers caused inflation in the medals league, and some appeared to have been so much more deserving than others.
Another thing is that surely the Staffelkapitän if not the Gruppenkommandeur would know what was going on. Remember the four with JG 27 who were reported by another pilot to have fired their ammunition into the desert and reported claims on their return, their C.O immediately started an inquiry, and if you look at their claims they all made large numbers together in a very short time, and didn't do much after.
For most if they were that way inclined it would have to be when the opportunity arose, at other times I guess they were honest by neccessity!

But my only defense for Hartmann is that in August 1944 when he excelerated towards the "300" mark that he was the only pilot in his Staffel actually making claims, so what would be his witnesses motive to confirm his claims, and he also made so few claims over the Il-2, which would make sense, if he had claimed many I would question it as they flew at extremely low altitude, and his claims were almost all at high altitude. Yet Hartmann was not popular with other pilots(for whatever reason) perhaps they suspected that he was a fraud, or perhaps he was just selfish in his pursuit of numbers.......he was also a poor officer.
To actually catch these guys out(and Hartmann should be easy to do, because he was the only guy claiming in the whole Staffel) you would need accurate information on Russian losses, moreover the area they were lost, and accurate claim data, especially again the area of claim, so 1945 would be almost impossible to research as such.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 

Guys, as I am having the list of Soviet AC losses in Hungary in 1944-45 (5 and 17 VA by units, dates & locations, aircraft and AC engine serial numbers, markings and crew name(s) from TsAMO archives, Russia) I had the opportunity to compare the facts to German and Hungarian claims. It is true, German statistics have never been in the centre of my research, but I should say (please forgive me) that eg. Hartmann's claims (at least in this time period) are very 'shaky' and in most cases I would NOT put my money down on their credibility. But eg. Hptm. Helmut Lipfert's claims are pretty much accurate, I was able to verify most of them from the soviet loss reports, eg.:

Claim No............Destroyed AC: ............S/N:................Crew:

161. ................Pe-2...........................6/235 .............(3 KIA, Elohov's crew)
172. ................La-5FN....................... 39211399.........(1 KIA, Suhorukhov)
173. ................A-20B........................ 41-2937.......... (4 KIA, Vetlov's crew)
174. ................A-20G.........................43-21588.........(4 KIA, Kruglov's crew)
190. ................IL-2m3 .......................11082..............(2 WIA, Taranovich's crew)
191. ................IL-2m3........................1871797...........(2 KIA, Belyashin's crew)


In my opinion Hartmann's (especially Yak-) claims in most cases were only damaged, but not destroyed.
His 453 BAP Boston claim eg. on November 17, 1944 (S/N: 42-53956 - Danielyan crew) mentioned here by Nokose colleauge as well, was max. a shared victory with Hungarian Capt. Pottyondy Laszlo, but it rather looks that it was Pottyondy's claim, not his... The other A-20G loss on November 17 was also a 453 BAP plane, but in a landing accident during relocation, not combat loss. (S/N: 42-54223, Yurchenko crew. Engines: 42-154065, 42-154199). (No more Bostons on November 17, 1944 in 5 VA.)

On December 14, 1944 17 VA eg. lost 6 IL-2s (S/N: 11429, 11550, 11551, 11553, 11565 and 18862106, plus 7 damaged) as opposed to the 8 German-Hungarian air-, and AAA claims. (No.11551 -from Zavod 1., Kuybishev- is now on display in the Szolnok Aircraft Museum, Hu. It was recovered from Lake Balaton still in 1999. A wingtip of Lipfert's Pe-2 claim from Lake Balaton is also on display in the Museum. Both planes were found in the East-end of the lake near Balatonkenese.)

Gabor

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 

Gabor
Very interesting, thanks for sharing the info.

Juha

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 

Gabor

Like always thank you for your details and deep information, your historical work is highly appreciated at my end.

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 

You're most welcome! By the way, 42-54223 crashed at Arad (Oradea) airfield... I think this is for you :)

Gabor

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 

Gabor

Do you have complete details on 42-54223 ? was it with 244 BAD or with 218 BAD ...I have no tracking details at all....was it Oradea Decampeni ? I think 453 BAP was at that time with 5th BA rather 17 BA ? But you never
know because units from 2nd to 5th and 5th relocated to 17th and vice versa due to specific front needs and that makes the Russian BA's research a pain in the neck.

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 

Sorry, i'm busy now, but it was 5 VA, 218 BAD, 453 BAP:

"Вылетел с аэр. Медиаж на аэр. Арад. Из-за тумана посадка в поле. Самолет разбит, экипаж цел./Переброска лс и лидирование истребителей. в рне 1 км южнее Кебермеш. В акте самолет 254223, моторы 42-154065, 42-154199."

So crashed near Kevermes, Hu at the border, while approaching Arad. (5 VA papers are messy, 17 VA docs are better, having more details. Probably I have to review details again.)