Re: Cobras, Mustangs, Thunderbolts, Eastern vs Western front, Franek vs ...
 

Juha
The fact that aircraft is manouverable does not make it a good fighter. Dangerous is also a very relative term, and Me 109 could have been downed even by I-5, if pilot was careless.

Re: Cobras, Mustangs, Thunderbolts, Eastern vs Western front, Franek vs ...
 

Franek
"The fact that aircraft is manouverable does not make it a good fighter."

No in itself but it helps. And Finns thought that Yak-9 was as good climber as 109G.

"Me 109 could have been downed even by I-5, if pilot was careless."

Highest ranking FAF ace killed during summer 44 (Nissinen) was extreme unlucky but next highest (Saarinen) would have survived if his opponents had been I-5s.

La-5 was dangerous opponent even to carefull and alert 109G pilot.

Re: Cobras, Mustangs, Thunderbolts, Eastern vs Western front, Franek vs ...
 

Soviet fighter pilot recalled:

It was harder to fight againts Finns, than againts germans. Why?

Because finns used slow, very maneuvreble aircrafts. Hawks or Brewsters. When they saw our Yaks and La's, the knew will not escape, and started amazing furball. Usually my head was circling for 360* and almost jumped out from showlders! There ALWAYS were "on the edge" furballs!

In case with germans: usually they flew high over us. You see, WHEN they start to attack, and JUST start a little maneuvering, to show them that You see them and theyr attack WILL NOT BE SUDDEN FOR US, THAT WE ARE PREPARED TO FIGHT.

Usually, they IMMEDIATLY breaked off theyr attack and get away to search for another easier target.

Re: Cobras, Mustangs, Thunderbolts, Eastern vs Western front, Franek vs ...
 

It is hard to shot down a nimble aircraft, sometimes impossible, but does the fact that Camel outmanoeuvered Hurricane in a mock-up dogfight make it a better fighter? Or if EE Lightning had some problems to get on Spitfire, does it mean RAF should rely on the latter type?
The war is not fighting dog fights but killing the enemy. Germans just did the thing as described, engaging or disengaging at will, and their better aircraft allowed them to do so. It would look just the same with the western powers.

Re: Cobras, Mustangs, Thunderbolts, Eastern vs Western front, Franek vs ...
 

Come on Franek, no need to make self-clear points.

And Finnish pilots were well aware of the purpose of air combat and I'm sure so were Soviets. In fact FAF's high command thought in 1943 that Finnish pilots were too aware of that and tried desperately to restrict the hunt for kills over areas where there was powerful Soviet AA. High command thought that it was not worth to risk scare planes and pilots to powerful AA for a few kills and that it was better to spare them to next real need. But it was very difficult to convince pilots on that. In the end it was ordered that no kills made over those AA areas would be accepted and pilots flying over those areas without permission would be punished.

Juha

Re: The best USAAF fighter pilots have been the soviets
 

The 353rd was a P-47 Group until Dec 1944, the 354FG , 363FG and 4th FG and 357FG were only Mustang Groups.. this was first Mustang combat encounter for 4th FG who actually learned to fly the airplane only two days before.

The 354FG lost 1 air, 2 weather for 8 air awards
The 363FG lost 11 in weather over North Sea - worst day for 8th AF FC in war.
The 4FG lost 3 air (1 M/A/C with shot down Me 110, 2 shot down by Do 217 gunners), one mechanical for 15 air awards
357FG zero losses - for 18 air awards.

Actually, in my opinion Franek is right. The four Mustang and two operational P-38 Groups were all that was available to engage the LuftFlotte Reich on March 6 beyond Dummer Lake. By the end of April the 355th, 352nd would add their Mustangs and the 364th would add one more Lightning Group.

The P-47s did not perform Target Escort, only Penetration and Withdrawal. The Battle of Germany was in the very few hands of five Mustan Groups and three Lightning Groups. The Mustangs were THE major contributors to the defeat of the Luftwaffe over Germany and achieving air superiority.

In all, the 8th AF Merlin Mustang only flew half the sorties, destroyed approximately twice the German fighters in the air than the P-38 and P-47 Combined, destroyed three times as many German fighters on the ground as the P-47/P-38s combined, and lost the same amount of Mustangs in air battles as the P-47/P-38 Combined.http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...OPERATIONS.pdf



Yes, the Target Escort available during 1944 NEVER exceeded the number of single engine day fighters in LuftFlotte Reich until December when the 78th and 353rd converted to P-51s. The LW was also able to try to form masses of fighters and focus on imperfect fighter escort coverage, achiving great local numerical advantage over the Target Escorts.

Do the math. at the end of May 1944, approximately 6 Mustang and 3 Lightning Groups (~ 40-50 effectives per Group) were available to escort 3 Bomb Divisions of 500 bombers each over 40-50 miles to and from the Target... so approx 150 fighters to protect 40 miles of imperfect formations of 500 bombers per Division.

Regards,

Bill


The Luftwaffe claimed 5 Mustangs for 6 March - not 30-35.

Re: Cobras, Mustangs, Thunderbolts, Eastern vs Western front, Franek vs ...
 

Hi Bill,

thanks for the link. It is very intresting statistic. But with this statistic we risk the loss focus of the discussion: if the few Mustangs was key factor for the success of 8th air force.

First of all I suggest to narrow the time slice that we take in account. Our discussion focus on the first half 1944 until the landing in Normandy. As I already wrote, it was a turning point in air war. It were two different Luftwaffe, in spring and late autumn 1944. The german pilots reach there units only with 10-20 flying hours in their Bf109 or FW190. It is clear that the succeses of US fighter dramatically increased and in that time the P-51 was key US figther. And if you write about german losses on the ground, we must recall that most of them was suffered at two last week of the war, where the german put open there planes on their fields.

But if we look at the spring of 1944 the picture is something different. You write that P-47 reach only Dummer lake. But in my eyes it was enough. Due the decision of perephery defence the most german figther units were deployed even in the north and north-west Germany and Netherland: JG1, 11, I,II/JG3... And after the fight with the P-47, the germans with their short range planes must be refuelled and come rare to second concentrate attack. Therefore a few P-51 of direct escort was enough. But it is not fair to minimize role of other 8th air force fighters.

If you look at 6th march, than you must agree that it was not the best mission of USAAF. From 730 bomber was lost 69. And the main targed was not attacked. From 100 P-51 was lost 5 (5%) and from 615 P-47 was lost also 5 (0,8%). The P-51 claims only 43:36=1,2 more german planes as P-47. The numbers are not really fantastic.
And I would like to see the plane types of the P-51 claims, IIRC many of the were two engines from NJG's.

Best regards

Re: Cobras, Mustangs, Thunderbolts, Eastern vs Western front, Franek vs ...
 

MONDAY, 6 MARCH 1944

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 250: 504 B-17s and 226 B-24s are dispatched to hit industrial areas in the suburbs of Berlin; fierce fighter opposition claims 69 bombers (the highest number lost by the Eighth Air Force in a single day) and 11 fighters; the bombers claim 97-28-60 Luftwaffe fighters; details are:

1. 248 B-17s hit secondary targets in the Berlin area; 18 B-17s are lost, 2 damaged beyond repair and 172 damaged; casualties are 2 KIA, 8 WIA and 184 MIA.

2. 226 B-17s hit targets of opportunity at Templin, Verden, Kalkeberge,
Potsdam, Oranienburg and Wittenberg; 35 B-17s are lost, 3 damaged beyond repair and 121 damaged; casualties are 15 WIA and 354 MIA.

3. 198 B-24s hit the primary target (Genshagen industrial area), secondary targets in the Berlin area and targets of opportunity at Potsdam; 16 B-24s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 54 damaged; casualties are 15 KIA, 8 WIA and 148 MIA.

Escort is provided by 86 P-38s, 615 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47s and
100 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-51s; results are:

1. P-38s claim 3-0-1 Luftwaffe aircraft; 1 P-38 is lost, the pilot is MIA.

2. P-47s claim 36-7-12 Luftwaffe aircraft; 5 P-47s are lost, 3 damaged beyond repair and 4 damaged; casualties are 2 WIA and 5 MIA.

3. P-51s claim 43-1-20 Luftwaffe aircraft; 5 P-51s are lost and 2 damaged; casualties are 5 MIA.

Yes I know they are only claims but the P-51s had a better success rate than the P-47s.

Re: Cobras, Mustangs, Thunderbolts, Eastern vs Western front, Franek vs ...
 

Kutscha:

A little off-topic question:

Do You have the same list for 22.02.44?

Re: Cobras, Mustangs, Thunderbolts, Eastern vs Western front, Franek vs ...
 

Yes, 6 time more success rate for 6 time more loss rate. And the bomber suffers highst single day losses, also they were not able to protect they completely. Where the "miracle"?

If the ally did not land at Normandy, what increased dramatically number of sorties and as following the german losses, the bomber offensive could require the next ten year(without N-bomb). And as Korea show the result is not known.

Re: Cobras, Mustangs, Thunderbolts, Eastern vs Western front, Franek vs ...
 

Igor
6.3. the lead navigator of second bomber division made navigational error and was IIRC some 15 miles off course when German fighters attacked it head on. Because effects of head on attack was well known, escort was best around and forward of the lead bomber division but the navigation error opened to Germans opportunity to attack a weakly protected second division head on. So many of the bomber losses resulted from that.

Over Berlin IIRC clouds made it impossible to identify main targets.

Juha

Re: Cobras, Mustangs, Thunderbolts, Eastern vs Western front, Franek vs ...
 

Evgeny, look here: http://paul.rutgers.edu/~mcgrew/wwii/usaf/html/

Re: Cobras, Mustangs, Thunderbolts, Eastern vs Western front, Franek vs ...
 

TUESDAY, 22 FEBRUARY 1944

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): HQ VIII Bomber Command is
redesignated as HQ, Eighth Air Force.

Mission 230: "Big Week" continues with 799 aircraft dispatched against German aviation and Luftwaffe airfields; 41 bombers and 11 fighters are lost.

1. 289 B-17s are dispatched against aviation industry targets at Aschersleben (34 bomb), Bernburg (47 bomb) and Halberstadt (18 bomb) in conjunction with a Fifteenth Air Force raid on Regensburg, Germany; 32 hit Bunde, 19 hit Wernegerode, 15 hit Magdeburg, 9 hit Marburg and 7 hit other targets of opportunity; they claim 32-18-17 Luftwaffe aircraft; 38 B-17s are lost, 4 damaged beyond repair and 141 damaged; casualties are 35 KIA, 30 WIA and 367 MIA.

2. 333 B-17s are dispatched to Schweinfurt but severe weather prevents aircraft from forming properly and they are forced to abandon the mission prior to crossing the enemy coast; 2 B-17s are damaged.

3. 177 B-24s are dispatched but they are recalled when 100 miles (160 km) inland; since they were over Germany, they sought targets of opportunity but strong winds drove the bombers over The Netherlands and their bombs hit Enschede, Arnhem, Nijmegen and Deventer; they claim 2-0-0 Luftwaffe aircraft; 3 B-24s are lost and 3 damaged; casualties are 30 MIA.

These missions are escorted by 67 P-38s, 535 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47s, and 57 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-51s; the P-38s claim 1-0-0 Luftwaffe aircraft, 1 P-38 is damaged beyond repair and 6 are damaged; the P-47s claim 39-6-15 Luftwaffe aircraft, 8 P-47s are lost and 12 damaged, 8 pilots are MIA; the P-51s claim 19-1-10 Luftwaffe aircraft, 3 P-51s are lost and 3 damaged, 3 pilot are MIA.

kalender, you expect instant success? There is bound to be ups and downs. Stop the nitpicking.

Re: Cobras, Mustangs, Thunderbolts, Eastern vs Western front, Franek vs ...
 

Thank You VERY much Kutcha!

Sorry for Offtop:

32-18-17 - what does that mean? Killed-Damaged-probably killed?

Is there any way to find out types of aircraft claimed? How many Bf109's, Fw190's, Bf110's and Me410's claimed by USAAF pilots and gunners?

Re: Cobras, Mustangs, Thunderbolts, Eastern vs Western front, Franek vs ...
 

Yes Evgeny that is what the numbers mean.

One would have look at the combat reports to find out what a/c. Maybe Bill (drgondog) can help you.

Re: Cobras, Mustangs, Thunderbolts, Eastern vs Western front, Franek vs ...
 

Kutscha correct but other different sources are pretty good for actual Awards - but first the 'order'. The Encounter Reports will state the claims which are frequently reduced from Destroyed to Probable or Damaged depending on review of combat film, etc.

The bomber claims were always greatly overstated. The fighter claims were much better matched

I also found that in many cases an award (i.e. "I hit him hard, coolant streaming and he crash landed in a field" would be a 'kill' but if it was say "55%" damaged and repairable, it would not go on the books as destroyed - even if the pilot died of wounds)

The 'Order'

Destroyed-Probable-Damaged for air awards and Destroyed-Damaged for ground awards.

The best sources for actual types are either the USAAF 8th AF Victory Credits Board or Frank Olynyk's lists. A good source is Kent Miller's Fighter Units and Pilots of the 8th AF, published by Schiffer.

I have spent a lot of time researching all the above plus the USAF 85 study which thoroughly reviewed 8th AF (and all AF) for 'double entries, awards made w/o film or witness confirmation, etc and reduced the scores accordingly. Frank Olynyk on the other hand picked up many claims that were never processed (like some POW returnees) and researched them to validate and add to his lists.

I continue to review between Dr Olynyk and USAF 85 for my own lists and use Miller to help cross check actual 'type' a/c for 8th AF (only)

Re: Cobras, Mustangs, Thunderbolts, Eastern vs Western front, Franek vs ...
 

The LW pilots were still receiving 'adequate' training in the first 5 months, but could not keep pace with the attrition inflicted by the Mustangs.

The Oil campaign starting on May12 was the beginning of the dramatic reduction in new pilot training and significant movement of KG and SG pilots to backfill the losses of Feb-May, 1944.

The 25-50 hour pilots were showing up in September and peaked in November when they simply should not have been in the sky. JG301 in late November was a classic example of the low time pilot in Fw 190A8's

I had a detailed conversation with Galland in 1983 before publishing my book and he permitted me to reprint a letter about the impact of the Mustang on LW Operations. Essentially the Mustang interdicted formation assembly, killed many German pilots taking off and landing, shot up airfields and reduced 'effectives' at strategic points (munich/Berlin for example) for days - shot up rail and barge traffic when Speer decentralized plants and needed to move subassemblies from one factory to another.. and put up a fighter with equal performance (or greater at bomber altitudes) over HIS cities...

If the LW have Mustangs during BoB, we might be speaking German.

Just a few of his observations about the Strategic footprint of the Mustang.

Regards,

Bill

Re: Cobras, Mustangs, Thunderbolts, Eastern vs Western front, Franek vs ...
 

Well, I would say there is no single breaking point that turned the course of war. The Big Week was not a breaking point itself, it was just a step in the right direction. Another one was airwar for supremacy over Normandy, which resulted in virtual annihilation of several Luftwaffe units to the degree they were unable to recuperate. Still, Luftwaffe existed, but it was existence to cease. Mustang was just only a factor, but a major factor because it was the aircraft able to reach almost every German target and still be competitive with any aircraft Germans could have produced. This was a key factor for the Big Week but also for Normandy.
I must disagree with some comments concerning Luftwaffe though. Most of the problems were based on inadequate training of the personnel, and resulting inability to fight against large formations of aircraft. Also a very poor navigation training, which resulted with many units being unable to arrive to Normandy within expected time. It is noticeable that there were several airmen arriving to units in Normandy, who were trained for about two years but still not capable of flying combat missions. In my opinion, part of the credit for victory should go to the Luftwaffe itself.
And just a few words about this old Soviet myth of second front. It did exist well before Soviets switched sides in Balkans or in Africa. It continued to exist with the invasion of Italy in 1943. It was over Germany, in Burma, New Guinea and Pacific. It was in occupied Europe. This was a World War not without reason.

Re: Cobras, Mustangs, Thunderbolts, Eastern vs Western front, Franek vs ...
 

Franek - pls, not blame on "Soviets". I live in EX-USSR, and my 2 grandfathers were "SOVITES". And they fought hardly in WW II not to became SLAVES OF "HIGHER RACE".

Pls leave "Soviets" to history.

Re: Cobras, Mustangs, Thunderbolts, Eastern vs Western front, Franek vs ...
 

Evgenij
Soviet Union attacked my country together with this Higher Race and inflicted similar losses in comparable period of occupation. It enslaved us and several countries of the region. I do remember Soviet occupation forces and I do remember how hard it was to rid them off, and what was left behind.
I understand that the people of Soviet Union had very little choice in regard of their nationality, and that they could have had no choice during the war (still a significant number of ex-Soviet soldiers joined Polish forces during the Polish Campaign). But this should not be used to justify criminal nature of Soviet Union and communism.
Have in mind that among others we discuss aircraft like Thunderbolt and Yakovlev, both created by designers of similar origin. The question arises, why Kartvelli and Seversky could not remain in Russia and to design Thunderbolt there.

Re: Cobras, Mustangs, Thunderbolts, Eastern vs Western front, Franek vs ...
 

Hi Bill,

I am also convinced that Mustang play very important role. But without other component of air force component they were not so successful.

I would be also careful with the statements of former responsible of wehrmacht generally and especially with Galland. He was responsible for fighter arm and he is also at least partly responsible for the disaster over Germany. After the war all former german generals try to give over own responsibility to other. And Galland was not an exception: he was the best, he understood all but Hitler, Göring, Joschenek etc were fault at the problems. And the last but not least: “Mustangs, what we can do?” But if I read his “The first and the last” and compare it with actual facts, I see many problem, where Galland was pesonally responsible.

Best regards,

Re: Cobras, Mustangs, Thunderbolts, Eastern vs Western front, Franek vs ...
 

Replacing other escorts with Mustang all the goals would be achieved. Replacing Mustang with Thunderbolts they would be not.
PS There were plans to produce a long range Spitfire with similarly high range but they were abandoned after Mustang appeared.

Re: Cobras, Mustangs, Thunderbolts, Eastern vs Western front, Franek vs ...
 

Igor - these were among many corroborating and supportive statements by Galland, Rall, Krupinski, Steinhoff and others at a Fighter Aces convention in Tuscon some 25 years ago.

In the context of the discussion, the Mustang was recognized as not necessarily the 'best', but was the most important Allied Fighter - in that it could do what the Spitfire and 109 and 190 could do in air to air combat, but had the range to do it everywhere.

It was of zero importance to RAF Heavy Bomber ops at night, or medium range bomber escort during the day (Spit, Tempest, P-47, P-38 could all perform this role) - but the daylight strategic raids would have been stopped and the Oil Campaign never started in time had it not been for the Merlin powered Mustang.

Re: Cobras, Mustangs, Thunderbolts, Eastern vs Western front, Franek vs ...
 

As I already mention, I am very careful with the statements of former LW stars.
From the technical and tactical point of view I am agreed with you, but I am disagree with the consequences. Not a Mustang was a key issue, but a further splintering of the german forces. If not a landing in Normandy, if not an advance of soviet army into Romania( with cutting of 45% of german oil supply) and deep in German, all efforts of USAAF were without any result, as Beeg Week, bombing of ball-bearing industry etc.
The german would able to manage also the oil crisis, as they managed all other. The would reallocate the syntethic fuel production under ground. In june 45 Speer planed delivery of 30000 to fuel from underground facility

Re: Cobras, Mustangs, Thunderbolts, Eastern vs Western front, Franek vs ...
 

Any statement should be verified.
I do not understand what do you mean.
By the time Red Army entered Rumania (August 1944!), Luftwaffe was already decimated. This was achieved both by the bomber offensive and Normandy. The Big Week was just a major step to the victory. Luftwaffe ceased to exist as a force well before the oil crisis.
They were unable.

Re: Cobras, Mustangs, Thunderbolts, Eastern vs Western front, Franek vs ...
 

The most important target in Europe was Ploesti - which started without escort and continued until production was hovering around 10% when Red Army overran it. The first Major raid was the low level mission in August 1943.

The 'results' of the 8th and 15th AF missions to Rumania, Austria, Czechoslovaki and Germany had two major effects on Germany's ability to wage war. One, it killed the skilled core of the LW Day Fighter Command, including all the re-inforcements from Ost Front. Second it inflicted huge blows on rest of German petroleum/Chemical targets - all before D-Day. This was much more important than the Ball bearings, Transportation and aircraft factories.

What is absolutely true is that the Germans were tenacious about restoring limited production until USSR over ran the rest of the refineries from the East.. but there was never hope for the Germans to restore enough fuel to support flexibility in offense. The Battle of the Bulge was the final gamble and drew heavily upon reserves from Russian Front -

Speer was far more concerned about diverting feed stock supplies to Chemical plants to make enough fertilzer for Spring than he was in keeping Luftwaffe in air in March 1944.

The less critical but still important effect was that it forced LW into drawing on it's strategic reserves, and greatly reduced the flying time students had when assigned to combat - lessening the effectiveness of Luftwaffe even further, ditto for fuel to armor and motorized infantry units in defense.

Last these same daylight raids killed many NJG pilots and crews, and destroyed many specially equipped Me 110's, 410's and Ju 88s on the ground - helping the RAF reduce night losses.

The Mustangs were the principal 'messenger' over Germany during the critical months of January, 1944 through D-Day and grew in strength until all but one P-47 group was replaced with Mustangs by December 1944.

When the Invasion occurred much of LuftFlotte Reich was deployed westward in an attempt to wrest air superiority away from Allies and finally came into range of EVERY fighter based in England. Finally the RAF and USAAF TAC and rest of 8th AF P-47s were able to engage the LW once again in large numbers.

Re: Cobras, Mustangs, Thunderbolts, Eastern vs Western front, Franek vs ...
 

Bill, it was something different, what time line concern. Romania delivered 13 million barreal oil to germany during 1943 and in the first half 1944 again 7 million. IIRC the attack of Ploesti and mining of Danume did not affect seriosly the oil delivery to Germany until august. Only the attack in august caused strong damage of romanian oil industry. But from soviet point of view, these damages were not very helful. Oil reserves that could be used by soviets was already destroyed.
What the german oil industry concern, the before D-Day attack decreased the oil output some by 20% in may from the highest level of april(april 348tto, may 285tto). Therefore we could not speak about blows of oil/chemichals industry before D-Day. Only on 8th juni gen. Spaatz declare all oil related object as target number one. After that the 15th and 8th(from middle juni) air force started systematicaly distruction of oil objects. At that time the bulk of german fighter was already transferred to Normandy

Re: Cobras, Mustangs, Thunderbolts, Eastern vs Western front, Franek vs ...
 

Igor, Luftwaffe was defeated well before Ploesti was overrun!!!

Re: Cobras, Mustangs, Thunderbolts, Eastern vs Western front, Franek vs ...
 

Igor - the first official 8th AF attack on the German Oil Industry, as part of a concentrated campaign was on May 12, 1944 - to Brux and Zwickau among other targets.