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Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
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great "handbook"! We exchanged some ULTRA-reports years ago! Kind Regards, Mario |
Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
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I focus on Luftwaffe-sorties on the Remagen-bridgehead and assume this period must be covered. Thanks for your support in advance! Mario |
Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
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as an example, a couple of years ago I photographed all of the CX/MSS/R reports for the period 1 January - 23 May 1945 (covered by files HW 5/640-703). This took around two days, and equates to 6,700 pages. In terms of the CX/MSS/T material, I'd previously purchased a set of DEFE 3 microfilms for the same period, and used these to identify relevant CX/MSS/T signals, which could then be ordered individually from TNA. Although this route was costly, I found it easier to be able to go through the microfilms on more than one occasion at my leisure and this probably halved the number of photos I had to take when actually at TNA. Cheers Rod |
Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
Hi Everyone,
as a side note, DEFE 3/573 contains are series of signals that were NOT generally telexed to commands (instead they were forwarded to specific individuals) and not transcribed into the main volumes of HW 5. This was mainly because of the increased sensitivity of the material. Although not strictly relevant to the Luftwaffe, these signals do relate to reports of crashed Allied aircraft where personnel names were mentioned and to PoW matters in general (for example, reports concerning the mass migration of PoWs in the last months of the war). Has anyone seen a file in the HW series that could be the "HW 5' equivalent of this DEFE 3 microfilm? Cheers Rod |
Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
Hi Rod,
Back in the late eighties/early nineties I brought in all the DEFE 3 series via interlibrary loan and sat at my desk at home in front of my microfilm reader and typewriter over a 3 or 4 years span extracting everything of interest, mostly order of battle, unit movements, operational activity and such. Then, in the late nineties, the PRO began opening up the HW 5 material and I developed an immediate craving for what I thought would be even richer and better than DEFE 3. I had a long wait but recently a good friend and colleague began sending me some of the HW 5 decrypts so I could see what I had missed. Apparently, not much. From a purely operational, order of battle standpoint, I am now convinced that the really important, comprehensive material is in DEFE 3. HW 5 seems to be the backwash material that Hut 3 did not determine met the criteria to be forwarded to the commands in the field for their use. Perhaps I just got into a bad run of HW 5, those I examined being from the May - July 1941 period. What say you, Rod? Would you agree or do you feel otherwise? Cheers, Larry |
Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
Hi Larry,
thanks for the interesting comments. My own experience, working with the 1945 DEFE 3 and HW 5 ULTRA material is that: (a) HW 5 essentially contains the fuller versions of everything that is in DEFE 3. I have found at times that going to the HW 5 version can be useful, especially when wanting a more accurate transcript of a report, more specific information, or when the DEFE 3 signals contain slight errors of interpretation (one example off the top of my head is a DEFE 3 signal that interpreted a passage as referring to 'Abschüsse' when the HW 5 version clearly meant 'armament attacks' with onboard weapons). Obviously, in terms of specifics about personnel, WM, claims and losses, DEFE 3 is useless. I much prefer to see the fuller HW 5 signals for strength returns, as sometimes, information can be better understood, and the less accurately decrypted parts are more clearly identified. An example of the benefit of HW 5 is found in the few Fliegerkorps IX. (J) operations reports that are a part of the 1945 ULTRA. While the information can be found in many cases in the OKL FüSt Ic Reich Luftlagemeldungen at the BA/MA, the ULTRA material provides the times of operations, and sometimes, information that just doesn't appear to be elsewhere (some of the only real solid documentary info on claims by Oblt. Welter, for example). (b) HW 5 contains a lot of signals that were NOT transmitted to the Commands (and hence are not in DEFE 3). Again, this info is usually of a limited and specific nature (WN, losses, claims, information about personnel etc). (c) the specifics in HW 5 are most useful when combined with documentary information from both public and private sources, not only in filling in gaps, but also as a measure of verifying information. As an example, I have used ULTRA, along with surviving Flugbücher and KTB as a source for verifying the accuracy of British Y Service reports. DEFE 3, for me, has been most useful in identifying and cataloguing T series reports as a part of research (i.e. the Nachtjagd and RAF British Command losses and raids). In other words, it shows what is available. For the more 'important' T reports, I obtained the HW 5 version, and have found these preferable to the DEFE 3 version, especially when quoting operational reports, as has been done extensively throughout the 1945 narratives in Volume 2 of The Nachtjagd War Diaries. Cheers Rod |
Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
HW5 disappointing? More like a revelation. I spent about 15 years accumulating DEFE3 material and always with the sense that they knew more than they were telling - but fearing that the fuller versions no longer survived. The frustration is that I probably worked about three years with that material before I realised HW5 was now available (although, as it transpires, it would have made almost no difference to the content of my NSG 9 book).
The big differences are (as Rod said) in the seemingly trivial material not passed to commands but that complements other information one has; that individual aircraft can often be identified; and perhaps most importantly that people are named (rather than DEFE 3's "an officer previously with SG 4"). Of course, as with any research it's how all the different sources add up that matters but HW5 makes a huge contribution. |
Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
Thanks Rod and Nick. Your comments confirm my take on the comparison of DEFE 3 with the HW 5 material. The usefulness of the latter depends largely on one's interests and objectives and for those pursuing individual aircraft Werknummern, deliveries to the front, crashes, requests for parts and the like it is a very valuable resource. Also for those working on some particular time frame, front or geographical area where they can afford to carry out their research until the last stone is turned. HW 5 is interesting to read through, too, since it provides an unfiltered insight into the more mundane aspects of the air war from the Luftwaffe's end of it. But most importantly from the viewpoint of a historian, ULTRA fills in many of the numerous gaps that were created by Göring's vengeful order to destroy the remaining Luftwaffe records which was carried out the first five days of May 1945 by Oberst Mittmann, Kdr. Teilkommando Süd/8. Abteilung Genst.d.Lw.
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Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
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Although I expect that the years 1943-44 are probably more fruitful in terms of decrypts in my area of interest, for the 1945 period most of the unit-level Nachtjagd decrypts relate to NJG4 (predominantly I. and III. Gruppe), with a small number of decrypts from other Gruppen, so that out of NJGs 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 etc, there is little information (other than the odd strength return or loss report) on the majority of the Nachtjagdgeschwader. I also find it amusing that a run of decrypts for some units occur when they are having little operational success (like not flying on operations or not meeting the enemy), but abruptly end, sometimes on the very day, when they see major combat! Cheers Rod |
Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
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Re your Nachtjagd conundrum, part of the explanation lies with the comprehensive establishment of RV (Richtverbindungs-; not recreation vehicle :grin: ) networks throughout Germany by summer 1944. This gave the Germans a fallback communications system so they didn't have to resort to their radios. For example, just in the Frankfurt-Darmstadt area in October 1944 there were RV-Stellen at Erbenkopf, Feldberg, Montabauer, Hohe Wurzel, Bierstadt, Darmstadt, Limburg and Dulag Oberursel. These were operated by 3- and 4-man crews from Ln.-RV-Abt. z.b.V. 11 (mot). Perhaps those two Gruppen from NJG 4 were in an area not yet covered by the RV net or maybe they did not have the equipment yet to plug into it. You are doing some great analysis there, Rod, keep it up! Your comments have been very interesting. Larry |
Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
Hi Larry,
thanks for the additional analysis. The RV network is the most logical explanation for the dispartity in intercepted material. What is less clear is how much Enigma wireless traffic was either missed entirely or not successfully decrypted. I should qualify my statement, which you quoted - it only applies to my experience with Nachtjagd or Nachtjagd-related material by higher headquarters in 1945. One example that strings to mind are air situation reports issued by Jafue Mittelrhein in March 1945 - there were a string of them between successful actions on 5-6 March 1945 and 16-17 March 1945, but not one covering the two nights mentioned. Even the previously volumous NJG4 ULTRA material dried up from mid-April 1945 when Luftwaffe units began retreating into northern Germany and, presumably, used the RV network. Cheers Rod The following gives an idea of (mostly) Gruppe-level operational reports by NJGs during 1945 that are contained in HW 5: I./NJG4 ops 1-2 Jan 45 (Nachtschlacht) 2./NJG6 (Lt Artus) ops report 1-2 Jan 45 III./NJG4 ops 2-3 Jan 45 (NO OPS) I./NJG4 ops 3-4 Jan 45 (NO OPS) I./NJG4 ops 5-6 Jan 45 (No ops) I./NJG4 ops 5-6 Jan 45 (No ops) III./NJG4 ops 8-9 Jan 45 (NO OPS) I./NJG4 ops 8-9 Jan 45 (NO OPS) III./NJG4 ops 10-11 Jan 45 I./NJG4 return showing landings on 10-11 Jan 45, with pilot names III./NJG4 ops 12-13 Jan 45 (No ops) III./NJG4 ops report 14-15 Jan 45 III./NJG4 ops report 3-4 Feb 45 I./NJG4 ops report 1-2 Feb 45 3 JD observations made by III./NJG4 and I./NJG 2 ops 10-11 Feb 45 III./NJG4 ops report 2-3 Feb 45 III./NJG4 ops report 14-15 Feb 45 II./NJG1 comment on ops 20-21 Feb 45 I/.NJG4 battle report 16-17 Feb 45 (NO OPS) III./NJG4 ops report for night 21-22 Feb 45 III./NJG4 battle report 20-21 Feb 45 (NO OPS) I./NJG4 ops report 21-22 Feb 45 III/.NJG4 battle report 23-24 Feb 45 (NO OPS) I./NJG4 battle report 25-26 Feb 45 (NO OPS) III/.NJG4 battle report 25-26 Feb 45 (NO OPS) I./NJG4 ops reports 1-2 Mar 45 & 2-3 Mar 45 (NO OPS) I./NJG4 ops report 27-28 Feb 45 III./NJG4 ops report 3-4 Mar 45 (excl Gisela) II./NJG101 ops report 14-15 Feb 45 (note - also reports no ops between 2/2-13/2) I./NJG4 ops reports 3-4 Mar 45 (DOR & Gisela) & 4-5 Mar 45 (Adelheid) III./NJG4 ops report 4-5 Mar 45 (Adelheid) III./NJG4 ops report 7-8 Mar 45 III./NJG4 ops report 5-6 Mar 45 I./NJG4 ops report 27-28 Feb 45 I./NJG4 ops report 12-13 Mar 45 (NO OPS) I./NJG4 ops report 10-11 Mar 45 ?./NJG4 ops 14-15 Mar 45 (NO OPS – Gruppe unknown) I./NJG4 ops report 5-6 Mar 45 ?./NJG4 ops 14-15 Mar 45 (NO OPS – Gruppe unknown) I./NJG4 ops report 13-14 Mar 45 (NO OPS) I./NJG4 ops report 15-16 Mar 45 II./NJG101 ops report 16-17 Mar 45 I./NJG4 ops report 16-17 Mar 45 III./NJG3 ops 7-8 Mar 45 (note - about instructions passed via W/T) III./NJG2 combat report 17-18 Mar 45 (Adelheid) II./NJG101 ops report 16-17 Mar 45 I./NJG4 ops 7-8 Mar 45 I./NJG4 ops report 18-19 Mar 45 I./NJG4 experiences report 18-19 Mar 45 I./NJG4 ops report 15-16 Mar 45 2 JD data, then I./NJG4 ops report 21-22 Mar 45 III./NJG2 combat report 17-18 Mar 45 (Adelheid) I./NJG4 ops 21-22 Mar 45 I./NJG4 ops 20-21 Mar 45 III./NJG4 ops 22-23 Mar 45 I./NJG4 ops 18-19 Mar 45 I./NJG4 ops 19-20 Mar 45 I./NJG4 report on attack on Vechta 24 Mar 45 III./NJG4 ops report 24-25 Mar 45 I./NJG4 ops 26-27 Mar 45 I./NJG4 Nachtschlacht 24-25 Mar 45 NJG6 Nachtschlacht 25-26 Mar 45 I./NJG4 ops report 20-21 Mar 45 III./NJG4 ops 21-22 Mar 45 I./NJG4 ops 27-28 Mar 45 (NO OPS) Fliegerkorps IX (J) mentioning 7./NJG11 successes on 7-8 Apr 45 NJG1 ops 19-20 Apr 45 I./NJG 1 ops report 19-20 Apr 45 4./NJG 2 ops report for 29-30 Apr 45 |
Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
Rod - Have you had an opportunity yet to work with any of the 47 periodic wartime reports issued by Air Ministry/A.I. 4 Signals Intelligence? By these I mean those that carried the catchy titles "Canterbury", "Pearl/ZIP", "Pearl/ZIP/BMP", "CIRO", "Beta Krass", "Gamma Krass", "BATS", "OWL/ROBOT", "Orchestra", etc., etc. Nearly half of the 47 are devoted to Luftwaffe night fighter operations and might aid your analysis since the signals intelligence used came from other than Enigma/ULTRA. I do not know exactly what you are working on, so this is just a thought. From my recollection of the handful of these I saw, they plot and report each and every Lw. night fighter that took off and landed and what they were doing while aloft. Very comprehensive from late 1943 to the end of the war.
Larry |
Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
Hi Larry,
rather than get off-topic in this thread, I've started a new thread, which I hope will stimulate discussion on non-ULTRA Y material on the Luftwaffe: http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...416#post101416 Cheers Rod |
Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
I wish you luck, Rod. Unfortunately, this web site has over the years become little more than losses and claims as you can see from the postings. Most of the more serious minded researchers and historians gave up years ago and are long gone. How I wish that weren't so. I have a working hypothesis as to "why", but I will keep it to myself. I hope I am wrong and your thread generates a healthy interest and response.
Larry |
Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
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I can make no claims to be a serious-minded anything but the information I gather is to try and understand what happened in the war (or various neglected corners of it): claims and losses are part of the sequence of events in the fighting. Veterans I've met and corresponded with were always fascinated to know who "the other guy" was. Such information certainly isn't everything but it's part of the picture. |
Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
A little off-topic but an example of the usefulness of hindsight that was not available to Allied Intelligence at the time new ULTRA material was decrypted. This may make some smile...
In HW 5/651, CX/MSS/R.437/A/43 was the first mention of the R4M rocket. Here is the Allied assessment (probably in consulation with Dr. Jones, ADI (Science)): "NOTE - None of the above equipment previously reported. EG/R4M - suggested that R may equal RAUMBILD, stereoscopic principle, and the 4M may indicate some kind of range-finder on a 4-metre base." Cheers Rod |
Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
Hi
Does someone know the file numbers for the tabulated losses of the GAF, produced by the RAF after the war, and broken down by month and theatre? Many thanks in advance. All the best Andreas |
Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
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Hi Andreas, I presume that you are meaning: AIR 20/7709 Translations from Captured Enemy Documents : Vol. X 1942 – 1944 Luftwaffe Losses – Western Front (LF 3) May 44 VII/133Luftwaffe Losses – Area of Luftflotte Reich May 44 VII/134 Luftwaffe Losses – Western Front Jan.-Apr. 44 VII/135 Luftwaffe Losses – Western Front Jun. 44 VII/136 Luftwaffe Losses – Area of Luftflotte Reich Jan.-Apr. 44 VII/138 Luftwaffe Losses – Area of Luftflotte Reich Jun. 44 VII/139 AIR 20/7710 Translations from Captured Enemy Documents : Vol. XI 1955 – 1956 Luftwaffe Losses – Western Front (Luftflotte 3) Sep.-Nov. 44 VII/145Luftwaffe Losses – Norway (Luftflotte 5 West) Jul.-Nov. 44 VII/146 Luftwaffe Losses – Mediterranean (Luftflotte 2 and Lw Kommando Süd Ost) Jul.-Nov. 44 VII/147 Luftwaffe Losses – Western Front (Luftflotte 3) Sep.-Dec. 43 VII/148 Luftwaffe Losses – Luftflotte Reich Area Sep.-Dec. 43 VII/149 Luftwaffe Losses – Mediterranean Sep.-Dec. 43 VII/150 Luftwaffe Losses – Western Norway (Luftflotte 5 West) Sep.-Dec. 43 VII/151 Luftwaffe Losses – Eastern Front Sep.-Dec. 43 VII/152 AIR 20/7711 Translations from Captured Enemy Documents : Vol. XII 1956 – 1957 Luftwaffe Losses – Defence of the Reich Jun.-Aug. 43 VII/157 Cheers Rod |
Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
This is a question primarily for Nick, or anyone else who has been working with the HW 5 files:
have you managed to have a look at HW 5/718 Unreported Documents 6/4/44 to 2/5/45. For anyone that has tried to marry up the DEFE 3 signals to Allied Commands and the originating HW 5 signals for the 1944-45 period, it becomes obvious that the 'standard' bound HW 5 volumes do not contain all of the intercepted signals used as the basis of the signals to Allied Commands. In a small percentage of DEFE 3 signals and some of the T. reports, the originating information is given as 'unreported documents' and it is clear that this was a source of signals, some reasonably significant. that are not to be found in the standard volumes. I suspect that these 'missing' signals can be found in HW 5/718, and are wondering if anyone has actually had a look at the file... Cheers Rod |
Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
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Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
Hi Nick,
thanks for the reply. I missed photographing it in 2008 through ignorance, but have it on my 'list' to hopefully get done this year. Cheers Rod |
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Just what the doctor ordered! Thanks again. All the best Andreas |
From the BBC News website: Bletchley Park WWII archive to go online
The downside is they think it'll take three years to do the first phase. Some more detail here of what we can look forward to from the Bletchley Park scanning project. For instance: "… thousands of card indexes on different subject matter … In addition … there are log-books containing the original typescript of intercepted German messages … three fairly large rooms stacked floor-to-ceiling and wall-to-wall [of books and cards]." And this from the latest Bletchley Park newsletter. |
Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
I put in a query about a week ago concerning the manufacturers card indexes to see what might be held on a couple of my 'favourite' manufacturers. I also enquired as to the types of card indexes which might be held for the Luftwaffe but to date haven't had a response.
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Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
Here are some LW decrypts covering unit strength, air combat and aircraft movement.
https://www.humyo.com/10203701/ULTRA...?a=cORSjYdtkXA Bruce |
Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
I have just published two items found in ULTRA on my site:
http://wp.me/phMWl-j5 and http://wp.me/phMWl-j1 All the best Andreas |
Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
Hi Nick
Thanks for the info. Do the decrypts identify which Luftwaffe navigation beams are being used each night against UK cities? Thanks Austin PS: Bought a copy of Ghostbombers three weeks ago - and loving it! |
Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
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Glad you're enjoying Ghost Bombers. |
Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
Hi AndreasB,
thanks for posting this. Can you give the specific ULTRA files references (AIR 40/??) thanks Adam |
Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
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Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
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This is in HW5/39, while the RAF data is from AIR22 All the best Andreas |
Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
I have created a page with German code-names picked up on ULTRA in the Med during November/December 1941. Any corrections and additions more than welcome.
http://crusaderproject.wordpress.com...ring-crusader/ All the best Andreas |
Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
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I was most interested in your reply quoted, regarding the messages relating to the beacons that will be used against the German beams. I have been looking for information about their operation in TNA files. Mark |
Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
This is a nice example of what you can turn up in Kew, under HW5.
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=27407 All the best Andreas |
Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
The pages in my earlier posts may soon disappear as I am cancelling my Humyo online storage account. It is unclear whether they will stay accessible via the links or whether they will vanish altogether, so if anyone wants to see them I suggest they do so in the next week. This also goes for the pages linked in the Using Y-Intercepts to research the Luftwaffe forum where I am posting a similar message.
I hope this is not a problem to anyone. Please PM me if in the future you want access to the documents and I will do what I can. Regards, Bruce |
Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
I've just posted a series of additions and corrections to the site:
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Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
Hi Nick,
Thank you very much especially for the update on NJ St Norwegen. A comment if I may. Oberst Bongartz was not a fighter controller as such. He had previously served as Nacht Jagd Raum Führer 100 http://www.gyges.dk/Nacht%20Jagd%20Raum%20Fuehrer.htm ( a position equivalent to the RAF Sector Controller) at Grove, and I think he was posted to Finland in this function as well. This them begs the question of the location of "NJRF Finland". bregds SES |
Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
A lot of the material in DEFE 3 that is on microfilm is now available on-line in pdf format - free! Most, but not all of the 1020 files in DEFE 3 are on microfilm, and so should be downloadable.
About 500 files are decrypts of German and Italian naval traffic (mainly encrypted on Enigma and Hagelin, plus a few with hand ciphers such as Reservehandverfahren). Few readers of this list will be interested in those files. The quality of the naval files is generally good. There are also some decrypts of Japanese naval air traffic. To use the on-line material you really need first to make a full list of what is available, starting with DEFE 3/5 (continuation of JP series, continued as KV series); that batch finishes at DEFE 3/19. For some reason about half of the DEFE 3/5 pdf file consists of poor mirror images of the previous page. I don’t know if other non-naval files are like that. I can post a list of the naval files (eg DEFE 3/332-499 consist of ZTPG decrypts) if any one is interested. If you were making a list of the files with messages sent out by Hut 3 (Sigint on the German army and air force) you would not then have to download information from the catalogue on those files. These are big files – generally around 200 kbs. The server seems to be quite fast. Apologies if this information has already been posted. Ralph Erskine |
Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
Thanks. I'll need to update my site, then! I was at TNA two weeks back and I checked one DEFE 3 message via their onsite terminals but I haven't tried downloading from home.
Having the messages in positive rather than negative is welcome too, after the headaches I used to get from squinting into the old microfilm readers . |
Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe
It's really helpful, but also an embarassment of riches!
All the best Andreas |
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