Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Well, there is another issue. Those 45 reports cover virtually all assigned airmen - they were filed by commanders of sections dispersed across France. I estimate that about 75 percent of reports representative for about 75 percent of 190 Polish fighter pilots, contain negative remarks against Frenchmen. The remaining 25 percent does not have any remarks, be it positive or negative. I presume authors did not like to write too much, more than necessary. It is worth to note that in many cases French pilot are described as great friends, and very pleasant people, this not referring at all to their combat abilities.
As an aside note, Lionel asked about GC II/1. Polish pilot of the unit, Marian Trzebiński noted, that the French officers avoided combat at all cost, and that it looked like within the month most Poles had more flights that those officers since the start of the war. He was nonetheless full of admiration for French NCO pilots, who led flights and squadrons instead of officers.
Certainly an extreme situation, nonetheless another piece of rather complicated situation in France.

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Thanks, Franek. So the matter is definitively significant. Could you summarize the multitude of possible explanations for this complicated matter? Perhaps, with input from others, this may lead to a well developed view on things.

Regards,

Rob

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

A few points about the officers of CG II/1, drawn from S. Joanne, Le Bloch MB 152.

The Poles joined on mai 19 1940, when the unit had suffered heavy losses.
Looking through the day-to-day accounts, I do not see the commandant (Robillon) leading the unit.
The leader of 3 escadrille, Capitaine Veniel is very active, especially before may 19th. He was wounded on june 3rd. Of the other 4 officers, 3 were wounded. S/L Fontaine is especially active.
Of the Sous-officiers, (8) 3 were killed before the Poles arrived.
4th Escadrille.
The leader (Capitaine Coiral) was killed on mai 14th. On the same day, 2 of the other 4 officers were wounded. Of the 8 "sous-officiers" 3 had been wounded before the poles joined.
One wonders what 50% attrition in one week does to a unit?

Birgir Thorisson

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Rob
I was just saying it all the time. ;)
In regard of reasons, I think that such situations like cowardice or unfair approach was in minority. In most cases it was some sort of passive lazines, that means Frenchmen were not willing to work in wartime conditions. For example there was no will in having patrols since dawn, and tendency to have peace-like dinners with lots of wine. There were also many problems with organisation, both in getting equipment, and to arrange properly functioning observation posts. Simply, the system did not work, and the Frenchmen were not willing to introduce any changes. Lack of discipline is also mentioned. Sometimes this was combined with arrogance, but I would not say it was a general observation.
In regard of aircraft, a lot of criticism in case of GC I/145 flying Cyclones. There were some problems to get them working, and I recall a story, that a factory mechanic was unable to set those aircraft properly, having no documentation. Several pilots complained about low performance of MS-406s, and I know at least one pilot complained of the pneumatic firing system. On the other hand it seems few pilots loved D-520s.

Birgir
Yes, this could have been a contributing factor to the situation in GC II/1.
It does not change the fact, Poles have seen that unit in a terrible condition, and that their description causes the concern.

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Thanks, Franek. I'm aware that you have said all that, or implied it, before. It is just that I'm not too happy with this snapshot treatment of such matters. I had hoped to seduce you to more accurate statements, given in a more organised manner, as that could lead to a clearer result, that would make it easier for others to understand and to participate in the discussion. I was rather hoping for that. However, you continue to use many fuzzy expressions that do not fit in well with a subject that is complicated, and that has potentially sensitive undertones. If you would use your extensive knowledge of the Polish military aviation in clearer ways, then more people would benefit. As happily as we may disagree, you know that you have at least one reader who is genuinely interested in what you have to say.

Regards,

Rob

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

I am simply in no position to undertake a serious study of all incidents that occurred in 1940. The thing that you expect from me is to spend several hours on books, and I cannot do that at the moment. You will find quite a good summary in the book The Lost Hopes that covers operations of Polish fighters during the campaign. It is bilingual, Polish and English. This will not give you a complete picture, but at least part of the picture.
As to laziness, if you consider that fuzzy, those were situations like: we will not put flight at stand by at dawn, because it will make men tired, we will not camouflage aircraft, we will not dig trenches because no bombs are going to fall with our defences, we will not connect you to the early warning system, we will not provide you with necessary equipment because it is here to be stored and not to be used by you, we are not going to allow you to fly defence patrols of this place, it is not our problem the early warning system does not work, etc.

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Not meant as an insult, but wasn't there anything these Polish airmen didn't know better or at best agreed with?

(how familiar, must be endemic... :mh: )

It does surprise me that there isn't a single mentioning of the fact that they were grateful for being given a second chance to fight the germans in a fighter aircraft (how did these types compare with the Polish front line fighters of '39?).

Those who survived France got a third chance in Britain, where they probably didn't agree with everything they encountered either, but were save from the Wehrmacht and a quick defeat, hence having less to criticise at the end.

Birgir's post was very enlightening, thanks for filling in some gaps in our one sided picture.

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

I think that many were just impressed with the British organisation. Also, after initial snags, they had the feeling that their experience will be used properly. Ant there are indeed some comments like we should learn this or that.
Well, they could have been angry that they did not receive promised French aircraft, that there was no French offensive on Germany, that French aircraft did not attack Berlin, etc. Actually, their journey to France was a part of mutual agreements, and I am surprised, why they should have seen that in other way?
Well, if you ever read Polish memories, you will find comments in kind it is all other way than in France, at last, etc. There were some tensions, there were some complaints, but nothing that could be considered as general as in France in 1940. Here, we can really talk about no generalisation.

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Fairey Battle of 142 Sqn shot down by french pilots on the 14th May 1940 : someone said that Mr Lorant has evidence to say that this is not true !

What evidence ?

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Mr Gillet,

Time has passed since i wrote it, and i must correct it. The original sources were not found by Mr Lorant but by Many Souffan.

Sorry for this little mistake, but i'm sure that this evidences do exist. And in fact, i cannot believe that nine different french pilots identified Fairey Battles as Henschel 126s and repeated the same error four times.

Regards

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Petitpoucet

Good and well, but could you or anyone else please state what the individual Souffan DID find? Since nobody else during all these years have managed to find out what the French actually shot at, I am very interested to know, and so are probably a whole lot of other persons.

Cheers
Stig

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Hi,

He found the losses that match, at the exact time of the french claims. He's writing an article on it, and i cannot say more here. Sorry.

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Good afternoon to all,

What a thread !

I have now been searching about RAF history in the Battle of France for quite a long time now, and am still on it for quite a long time I think. I have been through many documents, and I just want to give my opinion about the "No 142 Squadron Battles affair".

On the 14th of may 1940, No 142 Squadron lost four Battles: K9333, L5517, P2246 and P2333 between 1500 and 1600.

K9333 3 crews returned to their unit.
L5517 crews were all killed.
P2246 3 crews returned to their unit.
P2333 1 crew returned to his squadron, 2 other crews were killed.

7 crews returned to their unit !

I think that if these four Battles had been shot down by French fighters, we all would very clearly know it now !

Don' t you?

Very best regards.

Bernard.

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Hello Guys

I go out from my cavern of silence to explain some little things.

I was very pleased when in 2003 the first opus of the: Victoires de l'aviation de chasse française of Arnaud Gillet was printed out. The search was serious maybe to serious because the reading was little hermetic. But it a good thing that book exist...

I was very surprised to read in this book for the 14th may that some French pilots made 4 mistakes in less 25 minutes to shot 4 Battle that they supposed to be 4 Hs 126.

As I worked ( and I work always) about "Cobber" Kain, "Fanny" Orton (73 Sqn.) and the great Jean Demozay (interpreter at this moment to 1 Sqn) I was very close to the AASF and in particular 67 Wing. So for me, it was normal to call to the author to congratulate for his search and to tell him that I had some documents about this affair...


At the phone, the man was so sure of him, so vain, because he knew a german general , Arnaud did not even ask me for my proofs, I was nothing for him. I stayed some seconds with the telephone in the hand before understanding that he had already hung up...

When the last year I bought the battle of France then & now of Peter Cornwall, I have read the same mistake... unfortunatly.

The first thing to say I have always the proofs.

2/ it was really 4 Hs 126

3/ As said Bernard, that the 4 Battle were shot down between 15.00 & 16.00, the 4 Hs 126 between 12.54 & 13.25

4/ How it can possible for 7 or 8 french pilots to make a so big mistakes an 4 times between Battle and Hs 126

5/ and the best of the best the infos between germans reports and French reports incredible; it the same hour, the same place.

6/ Don't forget some of the units of the Hs 126 were attached to the Heeres and their losses were with them.

My next post I will give the proofs.

Thank you very much and sorry for my bad English.

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

At the date of the 14th may it mist in the excellent book of Peter Cornwall a minimum of 5 Hs 126.

It is on the eve of May 14th that French understood really the intentions of Germans to attack by Sedan according to the German plan Fall Gelb. Everything is set up by the French-British to stop. German crossed the Meuse (Maas). In this May 14th nothing will stop the panzer divisions guided in their advance by the Hs 126.

After the first missions of the Battle at 6.30 am & 7.50, it's time to the Breguet 693 of GBA I & II/54 protected by 2 Goupe de chasse GC II/1 & GC I/1 on Bloch 152 & II/6 on MS406 The first Hs 126B is shot down by Cpt Coiral, Lt Maurin & Sgt Largeau, it belong to 1. (H)/14 attached at 2 Pz division which form with 1 Pz & 10Pz the XIX AOK. mot commanded by Guderian.

The german report (as the French report) stated that the Henschel was shot by French Fighters, fall down at Vrigne au bois after the crew baled out without injuries, in a place already occupied by Germans.

After the Breguet 693, it was time to the old and slow French Bombers Amiot 143 their bombs in the aera of Flize, Sedan, Bazeilles they were protected by 3 groupe de chasse; GC III/7, I/3 & I/10... the mission began at 12.35/40

the suite come...

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

If the GC I/3 was on the top Cover, the GC III/7 was occupied to protect the slow bombers. And because the slowness the MS 406 of GC III/7 made great circles. At the same time 12.30 13.00 the Panzer divisions had already reached the small village of Chemery.
At 12.54 for the Germans and 12.56 for the French the 1st Hs 126B of 3.(H)/21 attached to XIX AOK Mot of Guderian is fired By Lt Mourier, S/Lt Billoin, Adj/c Bertrand and Adj Littollf. The Henschel force landed behind friendly line >60% damaged, without injuries for the crew as it is written on German report.
At 13.00 over Chemery (the same time for French and Germans)at 1800 m a second HS 126B of 2.(H) 23 attached to the 1 Pz division is poursuied by the seven Morane of III/7 and heavily fired, Sgt/C berthet the last french pilot to fire saw the tail of the Henschel to break. The german report said crew baled out and reached Jehonville, 7km N-O of Bétrix observer (bo) Fw.d. Res. Franz Pörr wounded.
At 13.12 over vendresse Sgt/C Berthet and Cpt Lacombe saw and fired a third Hs 126 which escaped in a cloud when it go out it was fired again by Adj Littollf & Lt Mourier. The Henschel lost some part of his fuselage.
The german report said Vendresse, Hs 126B of 3.(H)/21 attached to XIX. AOK. MOT > 60% damaged forcelanded german side Crew unhurt.
A 4th Hs 126 was seen between Attigny and Sedan. It tried to escape but it was shot down and crashed in a wood near Villers le Tilleul, at 13.25, the coup de grâce come to the Cpt Lacombe but the seven pilots of III/7 shared this victory.
The German report: Villers le tilleul, Hs 126N of 1.(H) 11 attached to 7 PZ panzerdivision of Rommel, attacked by Fighters, force landed, > 60% damaged crew unhurt.

the missions are not finished yet

There will be after at 13.00 the French Leo 451of GB I/12
15.00 25 Battle of 12,142, 226 sqn
15.30 8 Blenheim of 114 & 139 Sqn
and so and so...

Thank you

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Dear Many

Many thanks for advising us far better details regarding this combat.
Since you obviously is in the possession of a document nobody else have had access to, I hope you will share it with those serious researchers undertaking a "final" research and hopefully also publication of the air war during 1939 and 1940. Leader of this group is Larry Hickey and the group includes Peter Cornwell too, who also has specialised in this period.
Since it is important to have a document number or a copy of the document scanned, I also suggest you share this with the Gentlemen in question. Since I don't know if you have an original or copy yourself perhaps you should consider to share it with centers in Germany, Britain and/or USA specifically created to take care of these things.

If you look at TOCH and the Luftwaffe and Axis forum you will find Larry Hickey's appeal to the forum under Sticky and thread: The Eagles over Europe (EOE) project. Both Larry and Peter are easy to contact via Private Messages.

Cheers
Stig
PS: Bernard, your e-mail is of no value to the discussion, contrary to Many's

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Hi Stig,

I indeed do agree with your remark regarding to the value of my post, for I have not given any reference to any document. If you check my other posts, you'll see that I always usually do and I haven't in this case for private and justified reasons.

Anyway on the other side you have to honestly admit that if seven RAF crews from 4 different aircraft of the same Squadron had been shot down by friendly fire and returned to their unit, as I said it would be well known.

AIR 35 files are very numerous.

Best regards.

Bernard.

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Fairey Battle of 142 Sqn shot down by french pilots on the 14th May 1940 :

What evidence ?

The Henschel 126 losses list is A LIE, I repeat A LIE, until I see the copy of this original document !

So P L E A SE........................ Sir Many Soufflan would you be kind enough to give us a copy of your fantastic and unbelievable documents you mentioned.

I am so sorry, but I don't believe what you wrote until I have in my hand those documents.... Then I will shut up... I promise...

Yours sincerely

Arnaud Gillet

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Dear Bernhard

Let's first clarify my own position. I am an interested amateur "historian", and certainly no scholar. I have never claimed to be anything like that and never will. But I am on the other hand no idiot either, although my wife might not sign that statement every day...:D

There are a lot of individuals both on this site and off, who although they may not claim to be scholars either, have a far better dedication to the subject, not to mention an incredible experience in researching archives in all relevant states involved with WW 2. From what they write and their most sensible inputs on this website, they are certainly no idiots either.

I have not researched any AIR 35 files, nor any other files in those relevant places in England, France, Germany, Italy, Japan or USA. I am not sure if you have either, but if you DO have found any relevant combat reports from surviving crewmembers of that day, I feel it is much better you say so instead of just making hints. However I am rather confident that we have many British highly experienced individuals who already have researched Kew from rooftop to cellar, and since they seems to have come up short handed, why don't you tell us where they should look?

Quite honestly I don't understand your position in this converation. Are you in possession of this obviously highly prized document which so far only Many seems to have seen? I do believe Many is capable of speaking for himself and advise those relevant individuals about his find and also give away all suitable evidence he has. Normally researchers and scholars share their finds since they usually either have access to the same storage facilities and archeological reports. (This is not to say they share the same theories... ) So far I have never come across any scholar or researcher who has refused to show his evidence for any new sensational find neither in Egypt, Greece nor Rome (I happen to be quite interested in Classic History as well), so at this stage I cannot see why Many should withhold any documentary evidence. I can understand that he does not want to publish the document on the internet, but as I stated I think he should share this document with other dedicated researchers who just like himself wants to get to the bottom of each anomaly during this period.

Since Many has not answered my last input, perhaps he is still thinking about this. It would be nice if he advised what he would do, because until he does it is just his writings we have and that is something that no scholarly world can accept.

Cheers
Stig

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Bonjour à tous les internauts,

J’aimerai que vous soyez tous témoins des difficultés que je rencontre en essayant d’obtenir les côtes et les copies de documents que Monsieur Many Soufflan dit avoir en sa possession.

Lors de la publication de notre premier tome sur les Victoires de l’aviation de chasse française, nous avons étudié avec intérêt le combat aérien du groupe III/7, le 14 mai 1940, avec pour résultat la revendication de quatre Henschel 126 dont trois percutent violemment le sol : version officielle de l’armée de l’air renforcée, en 2001, par Roger Pierre qui donne des précisions sur ces avions soi-disant abattus par l’unité française correspondant à la minute près aux revendications des pilotes français :
« - un Henschel 126 de la 1.(H)/11, équipage sauf, posé à Villers-le-Tilleul.
- un Henschel 126 de la 3.(H)/21, équipage sauf, posé dans ses lignes à 12.54.
- un Henschel 126 de la 3.(H)/21, équipage sauf, posé dans ses lignes à Vendresse.
- un Henschel 126 de la 2.(H)/23, Feldwebel Pörr (lire Dörr), posé à Chémery à 13.00. »
En 2009, la revue Avions (Lela Presse) reprend cette obscure liste.

Nous avons interrogé les auteurs. Roger Pierre n’a pas répondu. La revue Avions nous renvoie à Many Soufflan qui refuse de communiquer ses sources… !?!... !?!... !?!...

Nous considérons cette liste des pertes comme fort douteuse pour de multiples raisons et demandons à avoir une copie de ces documents…

Nous avons retrouvé au Bundesarchiv de nouveaux éléments confirmant ces méprises dont le témoignage d’un officier allemand de l’armée de terre qui a assisté à ce combat entre Chémery et Maisoncelle. Nous donnerons nos sources dans un petit fascicule d’environ 80 pages à paraître cette année.

Je demande à Monsieur Many Soufflan, en prenant les internautes d’aérostories pour témoin, de bien vouloir me communiquer les documents d’archives prouvant la perte de ces Henschel 126.

Aéronautiquement vôtre


Arnaud Gillet


P.S. : Il s’agit ici d’un communiqué qui a pour seul et unique but d’obtenir ces documents d’archive. Pour ceux qui désire discuter de ce combat, veuillez créer une page de dialogue.

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Stig
Many, whom I know personally, is an author, who writes under his own name, and has some projects under way. I assume, Bernard works on another project related to French Campaign. They do that for their own glory (there are no financial gains on the market), and it is understandable that they may not want to share too much, before their own texts are published. We are not living on honest land, so if they do not want to share documents before the date, it will be perfectly understandable. It is their choice.
That said, I cannot understand what the comment 'serious researchers' is supposed to mean? If that anybody else is a not-serious researcher, then perhaps someone should reconsider presence on this forum? Also a '"final" research' reminds me a final solution. The latter failed, and the former no doubts will, as there are too many unturned stones, not only in Kew.

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Franek

You are a Master of knitpicking on words and taking things out of their context for nothing. Congratulations to feel so at home with the British language that you never need to consider what you say! Let me just say to you that my e-mails on this site are not intended to be measured on a golden scale or be kept for posterity!! As already stated to Bernard, I don't understand your position in this discussion either. Are you in possession of the document as well or why are you jumping in and answer for Many? Again I believe he is capable of stating his own mind and why he so far does not want to state the obvious, his sources. Since he has already published the answers to what his document(s) state happened during that day, I fail to understand what use he has to keep the document itself secret! Writing new books? It then must be an incredible piece of document to contain so much new material that it warrants such secrecy, but again I believe Many can answer for himself regarding that.
Cheers
Stig
PS: No I don't either believe in any final solution nor a final book about any military campaign, and that is also why I stated "final" in brackets.
For most gentlemen on this list it should by now be very obvious that I am neither a researcher nor serious researcher, but if you have failed to understand that, now you know.... My meaning is that a serious researcher states his/her sources, a researcher does not!

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Stig
I do not understand your arrogance either. There was nothing in Bernard's posts, that deserved your offensive comments. Also, nothing can justify your disrespectful demand to hand over documents found by Many, especially on the site, where original sources are rarely identified.
That said, considering dishonesty present also on this board, I can imagine, that someone may would not want to reveal documents or their source. This because a complete file may contain more unpublished facts, the latter making a published work more valuable. No aggressive approach can change facts. That said, you obviously have not seen any book of 'serious researchers' you refer to, as they are devoid of any mention of sources!

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Hello Stig.
Before wednesday, your birthday I think, I will answer You.

Hello Franek
Thank you, you said what I thought, Don't worry, I will say an explanation

Hello Petitpoucet & Bernard
Thank you again

Arnaud
I read again the part of your book of 14th may and I am very surprised, your book is printed out since 2003, but you never have written your sources, so I wait for your source first, secondly, If you have made a good research in AIR 27, 26, & 35, and if you have read the excellent book of Brian, Twelve days in may, you will understand that famous 4 Battle of 142 sqn. began their mission at 15.00 and at this date the french and british hours were the same.

You have discredited your work because you are not serious, because you have written with so vulgarity against me, but for me the most important you have also discredited the work of Peter Cornwall because you have given him wrong infos. And please be correct with this forum, write in English even it is bad, it will be more respectful for everyone.

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Gentlemen please! We are all seekers of wisdom and truth on this forum. Surely we can debate in a civilised manner without resorting to even the slightest form of unpleasantness?

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Mr Many Soufflan,

Toutes ces messages n'ont qu'un seul et unique but qui est d'avoir la preuve, les internautes comme témoins, que vous avez refusé de donner les côtes et les documents concernant la liste des pertes de vos Henschel 126. C'est moins couteux de passer par internet que d'envoyer une lettre avec accusé réception.

Mais votre refus n'est pas très gênant... La liste des pertes que vous donnez ne correspond pas aux revendications du groupe de chasse III/7 pour de nombreuses raisons que j'expliquerai dans le petit volume à paraître en français et en anglais.

En tous les cas, je tiens à vous remercier chaleureusement. Vos attaques m'ont obligées à revoir dans le détail ce combat. Vous êtes à l'origine des difficiles découvertes de cette mission du groupe III/7 qui est bel et bien "la pire mission de la chasse française" (The worst french fighter mission ever)...

Ne vous inquiétez pas, je ne citerai pas votre nom ni ceux qui ont publié votre liste dans le petit ouvrage. Sachez aussi que je n'aime pas communiquer ainsi sur Internet en public. J'y suis obligé pour des moyens de preuve. C'est tout à fait exceptionnel...

Veuillez accepter, Monsieur Soufflan, mes sincères salutations.

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Messieurs,

This is a very interesting subject, part of a fascinating campaign that deserves more attention than it usually gets.

The tone of debate might be more a matter of culture than sentiment, at least I hope it is.

Please think of this forum as a gentlemen's club, if one disagrees take a breath, if need be a sip of some fine drink, and continue the debate. If all fails just think you'll have to end the discussion in amical disagreement.

"Veuillez accepter mes sincères salutations" even in my limited french reads like the right tone!

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Thanks You Many

I look forward to it:)

Cheers
Stig

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Happy birthday Stig 58, in 3 days I will have 56, we are of the same generation, maybe you will understand... It's the beginning of wisdom...


Before to begin, I would like to tell you a short story, he will open to your mind how I am, How I work, How I think the term Searcher.
When I began my researches, I always wanted to go to a known searcher or to an old pilot, I always did and I do by myself the researches the human contact is very important for me. So When I began to search, I met in his country an eminent searcher (since he had became a friend) and during the presentations, he said something that I always thought for me. He said he was a lone wolf. I think deeply, it is the best definition for a searcher, naturally, this searcher can have many friends who are also searchers and everyone is a lone wolf. The second think you must be in trust of the other searcher who asks you some infos. As Franek said we are not living on a honest land. I am suspicious by nature. Another story which explains what I have just said. It was ten years ago, I was in Prague to meet the most famous Czech searcher for some help. I show him some photos of Slovak Pilots, first hand photos because for the father of a slovak friend he told me to write something. this famous searcher was very surprised and he told me if it was possible to have copies. Yes of Course, but for one condition to wait I publish them first. Without my permission he published them 2 years after with my credits but not my permission. You believe me, again today it is a deep wound for me...

When at my beginnings Jochen Prien, Chris Shore, Brian Cull, Ferdinando d’Amico, Jean-Yves Lorant and sorry if I forget so others who helped me, I was able also to understand they didn’t want to help me. It is always a private choice.

We must know there are many different kinds of searchers, and many of them made researches for themselves, for a person of their family, for the passion, for the fun, without thinking to publish. Sorry if you find that I am proud, I make researches to publish, and I will publish again and again. So, As said my Friend Franek why I must give my infos if I didn’t publish yet, You spent money, time. You must know you always spent more money that you can win with an article or a book.

To come to the 14th may 1940, the infos are always in Bundesarchiv but not with Luftwaffe but with the Heeres, and I don’t know the references, because the German searcher who had given to me these infos wanted to stay anonymous, but his work is known, his names is on the cover on some best sellers that everyone know. When he began this work, there was the Berlin wall yet. So I respect what he asks to me to not give his name.

To Arnaud, it is an honor to be humble if you made a mistake, to say it, and your mistake came that it was not for you the same hour, but in the facts French MS406 & Hs 126 were at the same place & at the same hour. Seven men from the 4 Battle of the 142 Sqn. returned to their base, and in their reports never they said there were attacked by French Morane. Take time, go to Kew and have a look in AIR 27, AIR 26, AIR 35, Go to the Service Historique de la Défense, take a look on the file of III/7. Do you know there are also the diary of Cdt Crémont the Chief of the GC III/ 7 there are also private diaries of some French Pilotswho were involved in this melee, I have copies of them... The truth is so evident.

When I have documents, photos, I donate to museums, I don’t keep for myself, only when it is a gift from the pilot himself, I am not a collector, and when I have published, I help who asks me to help him. As I help without problem if it is not my subject. I always enjoyed when someone find new materials about my subjects I have written. Sometimes is difficult to reach the truth...

Hope that I answer you Stig ... and sorry again for my bad English.

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Dear Mr Many Souffan,

I thank you very much for those informations. I deeply regret you haven't seen those originals documents giving details of Henschel 126 losses on 14th May 1940. You don't know neither references of those documents... What a pity ?

But I am still looking for those originals documents until I have them in hands. You said that there are in Bundesarchiv... Well... Don't worry, those documents are publics and free to be seen... I don't understand your fear :

"I don’t know the references, because the German searcher who had given to me these infos wanted to stay anonymous, but his work is known, his names is on the cover on some best sellers that everyone know. When he began this work, there was the Berlin wall yet. So I respect what he asks to me to not give his name."

The Berlin wall fell 20 years ago. So all those people in Germany are now free to speak... I am sure this historian will be pleased to help me in my researches. He could be also a friend...

I repeat. Those documents stored in Bundesarchiv are frees, publics. There is no secret... Everyone could go to Bundesarchiv to have a look on every document... If this historian want to be still anonymous after all those years. Well... I don't understand that... But here we are ! What a big deal... But ask him references, I will go to Freiburg right away to visit the Bundesarchiv...

Is this historian M. Heinrich Weiss who sadly died some years ago ?

Yours sincerely

Arnaud Gillet

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Dear Mr Arnaud Gillet

Why are you so angry? With all respects I have for you, you seem’s to me, like a child who make a caprice, because he doesn’t have his toys… Sorry, “originals documents giving details of Henschel 126 losses on 14th May 1940”

Firstly, the “original documents” are and will stay always in the Bundesarchiv. I have only a copy with synthetic infos, because a Serious German Searcher spent a lot of time for him and he accepted friendly to give me some infos, not all, when I will publish them, I will give only his name…

Secondly I fear nothing… I remember, the motto of RAF 501Sqn. But more seriously, why I should be afraid? I am sure of my sources, German, British, and French.
Mr Arnaud Gillet, Why your 3 books are published since a long time now, but you didn’t give your sources. Now you write on this forum of gentlemen, Please, give us simply your sources… We wait for them.

Thirdly, why you speak always those documents are public and free? Here we don’t speak about money, but about the respect of a searcher, a lone wolf searcher who spent so much time, we speak here, the vivid memories of German, French, and British pilots and what they did.

The Berlin wall fell 20 years ago. So all those people in Germany are now free to speak... I am sure this historian will be pleased to help me in my researches. He could be also a friend...

Well I don’t know, if it possible to be a friend with you, why not? It is a question of feeling, a question of private choice, a question of trust, of confidence, a question of free will… I like no, I love to write, I know also, because I am by nature suspicious, to read between lines. I am sorry Ruy, that you don’t know the little nuances of the French language. If you knew, you should have a new dimension of the writings of Mr Arnaud Gillet against me.

It would be easy to stay in my cavern of silence without answering to Mr Arnaud Gillet, but I prefer to have a confrontation not a clash, to share my knowledge, to give him the light of the truth, maybe Mr Arnaud will show after that he had taken a wrong way.

Now, I would like to help you, you know of course that 7 men of the 4 Battle of 142 Sqn. shot on this day of 14th may came back among them heavily wounded S/L Hobler. This is what he said…

“As we approached the target our section of two was attacked by five Me 109, coming along in line astern, to get some practice in on us. I had Sergeant Kitto as my observer and Corporal Barbrooke as gunner. We had worked out that we would use the upside-down VGO gun if possible, so Kitto got down on the floor, telling me where the enemies were coming from. I would have liked to have turned into them and used my front gun but these two VGO guns were very fast firing and we really thought we could do something with them.
As the 109s came in and attacked us, I was weaving away and could feel bullets striking our aircraft and felt glad that armour plate had been fitted to our positions, because this plate must have stopped a lot of projectiles from getting at us. It added to the weight of the Battle but we survived.
Kitto shouted that he'd got one of the b… Huns and I'm not sure we didn't damage another one. I'm sure we did and I know we got one. The 109s kept up their attack and shot us to pieces. I could feel the controls begin to go limp and all I could do was to try and hold the aircraft up, for we were so low there didn't seem much point in trying to get out by parachute at that stage.
Down below us were the German infantry advancing in personnel carriers, and as we got nearer to the ground, we could feel ground fire attacking us. Our glycol tank was blowing hot glycol all over me and I couldn't see a hell of a lot but I could see what I wanted to do. I was hoping to guide the aircraft between a couple of trees, so that we would more or less land evenly. But while doing this, I was aware that fire from the ground, very quick firing guns, were slowly cutting my instrument panel away before my very eyes. In other words, they were keeping pace with the aircraft as we glided down out of control and just cutting away the entire instrument panel. It was a most weird feeling, extraordinary experience. A couple of inches back and they would have been into me, but they were just cutting away at the panel. Really quite remarkable.
This went on as we came down towards the two trees and I managed somehow to put the nose of the aircraft somewhere in the middle of them. As we hit, the trees folded the wings back, stopping our descent and averting what would have been a bald, Flat-out crash. So we slithered onto the ground in that manner, very undignified, with the Germans not very far away and heading towards us like mad…”
He said 109 no 406

I have another story of a pilot of 142 Sqn who came back from this mission, Sergeant Arthur “dagger” Spear, he was almost able to come back with his “kite” but he can’t with the battle so damaged, he got the DFM. This is the citation :“In May, 1940 this airman was engaged in bombing operations against enemy and after successfully dropping his bombs, he was attacked by a number of Messerschmitt, the tail of his aircraft being shot away. He ordered his crew to abandon the aircraft and was thrown out whilst preparing to jump, but he landed by parachute in enemy territory. He was repeatedly under enemy fire but, securing a horse, he succeeded by sheer determination in overcoming many difficulties, including the swimming of a canal, and later returned safely to his unit”
It is written Messerschmitt not Morane.

Thank you.

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Dear Mr Many Soufflan,

I do not want to discuss about the combat. I need 30 pages to describe it in a book to be published this year. I will also publish a testimony of a German officer who has seen this air combat between Morane 406 in the middle of the Fairey Battle. I have not one single doubt.

Those french fighter did shot down those Fairey Battle of No 142 Squadron.

So here is the same question : Henschel 126 shot down by french pilots on the 14th May 1940 :

What evidence ?

Would you be kind enough to give :
1. the references of those Henschel 126 losses stored in Bundesarchiv or
2. give the copy of the original documents or
3. the name of the historian you mention ?

Your silence is not a problem because the Henschel 126 you mention are not those shot down by GC III/7... But to complete my researches, I just need to see the list you mention. You gave this list to french newspapers and historians who have published your informations without any evidence...

A serious historian gives their sources... if not this is doubtful... I am so sorry but I don't believe you at all until I see your documents you mention. I am sure they do not exist as you write it. I am also sure you have changed some data to match with GC III/7 claims...

Please say that I am wrong, but give those documents... I promise then I will shut up... PROMISE...

Yours sincerely

Arnaud Gillet

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Dear Many

It's been a hectic week, so I am sorry for this late answer. I'm afraid I do not understand everything you say as much as I would like to, but if I have understood you correctly, you have received a copy of some document located by a former East German citizen possibly in Germany or perhaps somewhere else in the former Soviet Empire. The document itself is not a Luftwaffe document but a document relating to the German Army (Heer). You are still unable to either disclose the Gentlemans name or the document itself because of your promise to said person. But at some later stage when you publish your own work all will be revealed, at least the name of your source.

All I now need to know if you are able to read the documents diary number? If you do perhaps you can reveal that as well in your forthcoming publication. May I ask what it's title would be?:)

Cheers
Stig

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Hello Stig.

At the time where I received his letter, he was bavarian, but he said that he had the opportunity to see some materials of the Whermacht which were some times in east of Berlin. It is a long time ago for me But I am sure these documents are in Freiburg now... but don't forget What I already said these units of the Luftwaffe were attached to the Heer and the losses are with Heer documents

You will know the name of this searcher soon... a very serious searcher.

Thank you.

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Thanks Many :)

May I again ask for the title of your publication?

Cheers
Stig

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Hello Gentlemen

In a previous post Mr Gillet has written in French ( I will translate after):

Nous avons interrogé les auteurs. Roger Pierre n’a pas répondu. La revue Avions nous renvoie à Many Soufflan qui refuse de communiquer ses sources… !?!... !?!... !?!...

We questioned the authors. Roger Pierre did not answer. The Avions Magazine sends back to us to Many Soufflan who refuses to communicate his sources!?!!?!!?!...

Mr Pierre Roger is an excellent historian who live near Sedan and he has written with his wife 2 books very serious about the air war over sedan at the beginning of Campaign of France. As Mr Gillet has written his name I tried to find him and I Did. He just send me this email that I tried to translate for you with my bad English. Sorry.


M. Souffan. je viens de prendre connaissance des propos de M. Gillet Arnaud concernant les pertes de Hs126 sur le secteur de Vendresse. Voici ma réponse que vous pouvez faire savoir aux internautes:

a) La source est d'origine allemande, écrite en allemand, et n'a rien d'obscur.
b) Cet historien et chercheur allemand est connu pour le sérieux de ses recherches et l'accès qu'il peut avoir à certains documents souvent difficiles à trouver.
c) Cela a été un grand honneur pour mon épouse et moi-même qu'il accepte de nous aider dans cette quête
d) Lorsque j'entretenais des rapports encore dignes de confiance avec M. Arnaud Gillet j'ai accepté un après-midi, en me libérant auprès de mes patients, de le conduire sur le lieu de crash du Bloch 152 de l'Adj/C Munier, aux ''Woieries'', commune de Monthermé. A cette occasion, je lui ai présenté ce document. IL L'A EU EN MAINS. Ceci étant il m'a dit que c'était impossible et n'a même pas accepté que je lui en fasse une copie. Il s'étonnait même que ce chercheur ait trouvé cela et se demandait d''Où il l'avait sortie?''
Il semblerait que la mémoire de M.Gillet lui fasse défaut, ou qu'elle soit très sélective.

Maintenant, que cette liste de Hs126 est intéressante. C'est dommage !
Conclusion: Je n'aime pas trop que l'on me prenne pour certaine chose.

L'arrogance de M. Gillet a du mal à faire bon ménage avec la recherche historique. (Lui qui clamait que M. Roger ne racontait que des con.....!). Il faudra qu'il apprenne que nous faisons tous des erreurs, même lui, et que nul n'a le monopole de la connaissance historique définitive.

Merci aux lecteurs de cette petite réponse, un peu écrite sur le vif, d'avoir pris en compte mon point de vue
Cordialement
Pierre ROGER

Mr Souffan I have just acquainted with the comments of Mr. Gillet Arnaud concerning the losses of Hs126 on the sector of Vendresse. Here is my answer which you can let know to the Internet users:
A) The source is of German origin, written in German, and has nothing dark.
B) This historian and German researcher is known for the seriousness of his researches and the access which he can have to some documents often difficult to find.
C) It was a great honor for my wife and myself whom he agrees to help us in this quest
D) When I maintained still reliable connections with Mr. Arnaud Gillet I agreed the afternoon, by freeing me with my patients, to drive him on the place of crash of Bloch 152 of Adj/C Munier, in "Woieries", village of Monthermé.
In this occasion, I presented him this document. HE HAD It IN HANDS. Being this that said to me that it was impossible and did not even accept that I made him a copy. He wondered what is more this researcher found it and wondered "where he had taken out it ? "
It would seem that the memory of Mr Gillet was lacking to him, or that it is very selective.
Now, that this list of Hs126 is interesting. What a pity!
Conclusion: I do not like too much that he take me for someone I am not.
Mr Gillet's arrogance has difficulty in making good connection with the historic search. (He, who cried out that Mr Roger told only bullshit!). He will have to learn that we make all errors, even himself, and that nobody has the monopoly of the definitive historic knowledge. Thanks to the readers which take time for this small answer, a little written on sharp, to have taken into account my point of view Cordially

Thank you.
Pierre Roger

Ps Mr Gillet I will answer to you last Post.

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

It will be in Avions Magazine.

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Great Many:)

I subsrcibe to that one!!

Cheers
Stig

Re: May 14th 1940 and few little things
 

Dear Mr Many Soufflan,
Dear Monsieur Gillet
I will answer to your last post word by word.

I do not want to discuss about the combat.
Sorry, if you say that 7 French Pilots shot by mistake 4 Battle of 142 Sqn. We are discussing about this combat, not another one. Please this discussion is very serious for me because we speak about the memories & the honor of French, German & British Pilots

I need 30 pages to describe it in a book to be published this year.
I should be happy to write these 30 pages, but I will publish an article in Avions Magazine, then you will have all infos for your publications

I will also publish a testimony of a German officer who has seen this air combat between Morane 406 in the middle of the Fairey Battle. I have not one single doubt.
Please, This German officer, did hetook some photographs? Did he Write an official report? Because if not, I have some doubts, maybe a new invention from you, as we can find some in your books.

Those french fighter did shot down those Fairey Battle of No 142 Squadron.
OK. Why not? If you are so sure, share your documents with all the gentlemen of this forum and if I made a wrong answer I will apologize in public.

So here is the same question : Henschel 126 shot down by french pilots on the 14th May 1940 :

What evidence ?

Would you be kind enough to give :
1. the references of those Henschel 126 losses stored in Bundesarchiv or
2. give the copy of the original documents or
3. the name of the historian you mention ?
If I give you other infos, it will be not necessary to write my article, you will do.But more seriously I don’t Want now, it is my free will after all I have written, it is not enough for you.Incredible.

Your silence is not a problem because the Henschel 126 you mention are not those shot down by GC III/7...
These are exactly the Hs 126 which were shot by The III/7, the hours and the places are perfectly the same in French & German documents.

But to complete my researches, I just need to see the list you mention. You gave this list to french newspapers and historians who have published your informations without any evidence...
Make the researches yourself great Mr Arnaud Gillet

A serious historian gives their sources...
Why you didn’t put your sources in yours books? Did you read the English books about the Battle & the AASF ? No!

if not this is doubtful...
I will begin to doubt about the serious of your researches

I am so sorry but I don't believe you at all until I see your documents you mention.
I let you to be sorry, it is your problem not mine

I am sure they do not exist as you write it.
You are so funny! So what Brian Cull have written in twelve days in May do not exist, so what Norman franks has written in Valiant wings do not exist? So the citation of the DFM of sergeant Spears do not exist?

I am also sure you have changed some data to match with GC III/7 claims...
I invite you to go to the SHD-Air (Service Historique de la Défense AIR) to see by yourself in the files G7889 & G7890 of the GC III/7 the complete reports of the seven pilots, some of them were in Armée de l’Air since 1935. There were not very young pilots. And I repeat a mistake for one Battle why not, but 4 Battle? Did you the profiles of the 2 Aircrafts? You Forget that it was the main aera and the critical moment of the attack of the Panzers of Guderian
If I was a child, I will tell you, if you said I changed some data, That you did in your books… it is not the words of a true searcher

Please say that I am wrong, but give those documents... I promise then I will shut up... PROMISE...
So I repeat you have taken a wrong way, but I don’t want to give you any documents, it’s my free will, you are not serious, please continue to write, I am laughing about your one man showand maybe not me only.

Warmest regards